Did God create evil?

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Originally Posted by RG57

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

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I did not go and read all the previous posts so I hope I am duplicating a previous one here.

In some ancient Jewish thought and texts it is explained something like this.

God being infinite is all in all everywhere so in order for him to create the space and world we now live in He actually had to withdraw his presence from an area that He already existed in. When He withdrew himself from that given area He left a void that now was open to chaos, that made it possible for evil to exist where it had not been possible to exist before. Though evil does not exist in God or with God the possibilty of evil outside of Him does exist.

Rozzy

You can run yourself in circles over this question for a lifetime and more, and still never come up with a definitive answer, because there are holes and paradoxes in every possible answer.

What do >you< believe in: a compassionate God, or a vengeful God?

Personally for me a compassionate God, but again a question like this will a great many answers.

Looking at the Old Testament many will say that God was full of wrath and quick on the vengence. But in the New Testament God appears to have changed, he is loving and compassionate to the point of sacrificing His own Son.

It is easy see why a lot of people are unable to connect both the Old and New Testaments with the same God.

I think this question hinges entirely on the God Hypothesis. Since I refute God, I refute its capacity for the creation of evil. Meh.

The Book of Job is there to justify no matter what happens in the world as "part of the plan". a rather convenient thing for a religion which preaches the goodness of god to have. It basically says, whatever happens, it is for the "Greater good" in a sort of Panglossian moronishness. The truth is, the evil is a contradiction - how can someone so "good" have made something so evil, as this world is. Don't say "free will", because, if god is all-knowing, he would have known creating "free will" (which doesn't logically make sense) would have evil implications. Thereby, if you suffer, he wants you to suffer. If your loved ones die, he wants them to die. If you have nothing left, and wish yourself dead, he wants you to feel that way. If you are tortured, and undergoing unknowable pain, he wants you to suffer. Etc. Etc.

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Originally Posted by RG57

Personally for me a compassionate God, but again a question like this will a great many answers.

Looking at the Old Testament many will say that God was full of wrath and quick on the vengence. But in the New Testament God appears to have changed, he is loving and compassionate to the point of sacrificing His own Son.

It is easy see why a lot of people are unable to connect both the Old and New Testaments with the same God.

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Well Allah actually stated that his compassion has surpassed his wrath. I have read the old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran. The three Holy scriptures are from the same source; Allah. His statments about His oneness, mercy and actions did not change. Allah is constant He does not change. He already comprises All the attributes of perfection. many of them are of Beauty and others are only to warn his worshippers through.

Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving, Concealing, Compassionate, Mercy and Love, and on the other hand he manages to take venegance from those who do wrong.

If this Universe is a kingdom, then He is the king. Just like a kingdom cannot be a kingdom without a King, the universe cannot be a universe without Allah. Just as the Kingdom would fail to be a kingdom with more than one king the universe would fail to be a kingdom with more than one king. The matter is a Kingdom not a kingsdom. A kingdom, with one omnscient Powerful Creator, works right. What we see might be evil in out view point is positively what he sees and finds right in his point of view. It is the mere submission to his will and wish that makes one see the good doings of Allah. Whatever he does is good and is mercy even if it appeared the opposite.

I do testify that I worship The KING. I believe in his presence and I love his actions whatever they are, and however they appear.

planet earth - May God always be praised from the heart in all situations of life and I believe that you do!

Thank you for your reply.

I know you do believe and I do as well "Al Hamd Lillah", Praised be Him. It was just his constancy in all His attributes that I wanted to assert.

Thanks for the whole subject as well.

That's okay, I felt that it was worthy of discussion and it has ben refreshing to read all the views on this subject. I have an open mind on most subjects in life. As you know I am a Christian but have no problems with other faiths, I believe we all have our own path to follow, all men/women can believe and tell others of their faith but none will no the true answer till we have breathed our last in this life.

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Originally Posted by The Author

First, I must state that I am not a religious person: that is I do not follow a set of arbitrary rules set down by some organized church. I am not an atheist; I am an agnostic. That means I am a person who claims that I cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but I do not deny that God might exist).
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I agree entirely with The Author in his post. I would just add that the good and evil are not like black and white. There is a grey area, that some would consider evil and others wouldn't, depending on the country they were born, the education they had...

Even though I am not religious, I wouldn't like religions to cease to exist. They are good, because some people NEED a set or rules in order to adjust to life in society. Some of the rules that religions create are meant to assure the survival and expansion of the religion (comparing marketing theories to what churches do nowadays would be an interesting exercise), but some are good for those people who lack good judgement. They are also good for those people who are not strong enough to face their own flaws. They can't forgive themselves, and when they find an institution that says that if they repent they will be forgiven, they feel relieved, and find the strengh and the hope to continue. On top of that, it is always comforting to believe that after you die you will be in heaven with a loving and caring God by your side. It is much better than being unsure about what will happen after you die.

absurda - obviously as most can tell I am a fairly religious person, there is much in what you say that I agree with. There is also the spiritual side of religion that can't be easily expressed in words without this side the church would be nothing nor the faith that it holds to.
I like your idea of marketing, some years back I researched into many of the Christian faiths/denominations, it was very interesting and at times scarey! The 'marketing' ranged from far fundamentalism which would scare the life out of people if they stepped out line with the doctrines to the very liberal evangelistc side (who too could use the fire and brimstone feature as well). At the end of the day I found that the established churches such as RC and Anglican etc had the middle ground. Also as aa point of interest it was the middle ground churches that were losing people and the extremes were gaining. I probably have not put this across very vlearly but I hope get wnat I am trying to say.

The simple fact is that we are here by our own actions. We used to exist with the Lord in the spiritual world, in full bliss and knowledge. But for whatever reason, we desired to enjoy separate from the Lord, and that is why we were placed in the material universe, which is like a prison. Because of our desires we assumed or took on bodies which are suitable for fulfilling those desires. As we began to enjoy, we began to develop false ego and lose our intelligence and all our knowledge and abilities. After contact with matter for millenia, we forgot our transcendental position. Now we are in the darkness of ignorance- we do not know who we are. We do not know that we are a spirit soul, the eternal parts and parcels of the Lord; we do not know who we are or who the Lord is. We have lost our transcendental bliss and knowledge.

The material universe only makes up 1/4th of all creation, the spiritual worlds make up the other 3/4ths. The Earth is the highest planet of a lower grouping of planets. We are here because our consciousness brought us here, our karma brought us. There are hellish planets, and the entities that live there are suffering for their actions. Eventually they will begin to elevate out until they reach a place like Earth where it is possible to end the cycle by regaining their transcendental position. God created all spiritual and material worlds; but our view is pretty much entirely based on our surroundings. We think everything we do based on the planet we live on, and if we lived on a planet higher or lower we would not have the same views. For instance on a heavenly planet, we would be enjoying so many pleasures, we would think it's so nice, but then, we would actually be harming ourselves in the long run, because it's beginning the forgetfulness, the descent, the fall.

In a word: yes.

I thought you were an atheist, hells.

... not entirely.

;)

With my limited knowledge, I humbly offer my opinion that God didn't create evil. How can a being full of goodness create evil? And isn't it said that "everything He created was good"? (Can't remember the exact verse, but it's in the Book of Genesis.)

So where did evil originate from? I think that it's man's creation and an indirect result of the free will bestowed on us by the Supreme Being. So naturally, I also believe that man is good, being a creation of God. But since man is not perfect like God, he lacks goodness and this lack of goodness results in evil.

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Originally Posted by crystalmoonshin

With my limited knowledge, I humbly offer my opinion that God didn't create evil. How can a being full of goodness create evil? And isn't it said that "everything He created was good"? (Can't remember the exact verse, but it's in the Book of Genesis.)

So where did evil originate from? I think that it's man's creation and an indirect result of the free will bestowed on us by the Supreme Being. So naturally, I also believe that man is good, being a creation of God. But since man is not perfect like God, he lacks goodness and this lack of goodness results in evil.

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I think the verse(s) you are thinking off are at the end of each day's creation in the first chapter of Genesis. Whilst I agree with you sentiments concerning God being full of goodness, if man created evil through the sin of disobediance, God is still indirectly the creator of evil because He created man.

"i can do no evil for i do not know what it is."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBGGAjMg9vw
quite simple, actually.

This question can not be answered. But I think evil or the devil, the embodiment of evil is not far from God for the entire cosmos is the manifestation of God and by virtue of the fact that the devil or evil is also here how can it or he or she be away.

Hi there, and God Bless Everyone.

I'm christian but also have no problems with others of different faiths. As to the original posters question "Did God create Evil" .... If God say's He created evil, then God created evil. We are given a choice/freewill to pick either way good or evil. If we pick the latter God will punish us with evil. God created everything including satan, demons, the serpent, the beast and HELL. All created by Gods hands.

There are many many parts of the bible that clearly shows God bringing evil because of people and their sins who provoke God to jealously then to anger then wrapth of evil upon the people.

Exod.32

[7] And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
[8] They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
[10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
[11] And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
[12] Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
[13] Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
[14] And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Deut.7

[15] And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.


Deut.29

14] Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
[15] But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
[16] (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
[17] And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
[18] Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
[19] And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
[20] The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
[21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
[22] So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
[23] And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
[24] Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
[25] Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
[26] For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
[27] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
[28] And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Deut.30

[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deut.31

[16] And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
[17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day. Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
[18] And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
[19] Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.


Josh.23

[15] Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.


Judg.9

[23] Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sam.16

[14] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
[15] And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.


2Sam.12

11] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Sam.24

16] And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

1Kgs.9

[1] And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
[2] That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
[3] And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
[4] And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
[5] Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
[6] But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
[7] Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
[8] And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
[9] And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.


1Kgs.14

[10] Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

1Kgs.21

[29] Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

2 Kngs.21

12] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2 Kgs.22

[16] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
[17] Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
[18] But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
[19] Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
[20] Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

1 Chr.21

[15] And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.


2 Chr.7

12] And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
[13] If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
[14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
[15] Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
[16] For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
[17] And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statues and my judgments;
[18] Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
[19] But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
[20] Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
[21] And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?
[22] And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

Job.2

[10] But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job.42

[11] Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Prov.16

4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



Isa.45

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amen.

Nations who walk away from Gods commands will recieve a horrible punishment from the Almighty, a punishment filled to the brim with evil.
Isa.45
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
4Ezra.15
[1] Behold, speak thou in the ears of my people the words of prophecy, which I will put in thy mouth, saith the Lord:
[2] And cause them to be written in paper: for they are faithful and true.
[3] Fear not the imaginations against thee, let not the incredulity of them trouble thee, that speak against thee.
[4] For all the unfaithful shall die in their unfaithfulness.
[5] Behold, saith the Lord, I will bring plagues upon the world; the sword, famine, death, and destruction.
[6] For wickedness hath exceedingly polluted the whole earth, and their hurtful works are fulfilled.
[7] Therefore saith the Lord,
[8] I will hold my tongue no more as touching their wickedness, which they profanely commit, neither will I suffer them in those things, in which they wickedly exercise themselves: behold, the innocent and righteous blood crieth unto me, and the souls of the just complain continually.
[9] And therefore, saith the Lord, I will surely avenge them, and receive unto me all the innocent blood from among them.
[10] Behold, my people is led as a flock to the slaughter: I will not suffer them now to dwell in the land of Egypt:
[11] But I will bring them with a mighty hand and a stretched out arm, and smite Egypt with plagues, as before, and will destroy all the land thereof.
[12] Egypt shall mourn, and the foundation of it shall be smitten with the plague and punishment that God shall bring upon it.
[13] They that till the ground shall mourn: for their seeds shall fail through the blasting and hail, and with a fearful constellation.
[14] Woe to the world and them that dwell therein!
[15] For the sword and their destruction draweth nigh, and one people shall stand up and fight against another, and swords in their hands.
[16] For there shall be sedition among men, and invading one another; they shall not regard their kings nor princes, and the course of their actions shall stand in their power.
[17] A man shall desire to go into a city, and shall not be able.
[18] For because of their pride the cities shall be troubled, the houses shall be destroyed, and men shall be afraid.
[19] A man shall have no pity upon his neighbour, but shall destroy their houses with the sword, and spoil their goods, because of the lack of bread, and for great tribulation.
[20] Behold, saith God, I will call together all the kings of the earth to reverence me, which are from the rising of the sun, from the south, from the east, and Libanus; to turn themselves one against another, and repay the things that they have done to them.
[21] Like as they do yet this day unto my chosen, so will I do also, and recompense in their bosom. Thus saith the Lord God;
[22] My right hand shall not spare the sinners, and my sword shall not cease over them that shed innocent blood upon the earth.
[23] The fire is gone forth from his wrath, and hath consumed the foundations of the earth, and the sinners, like the straw that is kindled.
[24] Woe to them that sin, and keep not my commandments! saith the Lord.
[25] I will not spare them: go your way, ye children, from the power, defile not my sanctuary.
[26] For the Lord knoweth all them that sin against him, and therefore delivereth he them unto death and destruction.
[27] For now are the plagues come upon the whole earth and ye shall remain in them: for God shall not deliver you, because ye have sinned against him.
[28] Behold an horrible vision, and the appearance thereof from the east:
[29] Where the nations of the dragons of Arabia shall come out with many chariots, and the multitude of them shall be carried as the wind upon earth, that all they which hear them may fear and tremble.
[30] Also the Carmanians raging in wrath shall go forth as the wild boars of the wood, and with great power shall they come, and join battle with them, and shall waste a portion of the land of the Assyrians.
[31] And then shall the dragons have the upper hand, remembering their nature; and if they shall turn themselves, conspiring together in great power to persecute them,
[32] Then these shall be troubled bled, and keep silence through their power, and shall flee.
[33] And from the land of the Assyrians shall the enemy besiege them, and consume some of them, and in their host shall be fear and dread, and strife among their kings.
[34] Behold clouds from the east and from the north unto the south, and they are very horrible to look upon, full of wrath and storm.
[35] They shall smite one upon another, and they shall smite down a great multitude of stars upon the earth, even their own star; and blood shall be from the sword unto the belly,
[36] And dung of men unto the camel’s hough.
[37] And there shall be great fearfulness and trembling upon earth: and they that see the wrath shall be afraid, and trembling shall come upon them.
[38] And then shall there come great storms from the south, and from the north, and another part from the west.
[39] And strong winds shall arise from the east, and shall open it; and the cloud which he raised up in wrath, and the star stirred to cause fear toward the east and west wind, shall be destroyed.
[40] The great and mighty clouds shall be puffed up full of wrath, and the star, that they may make all the earth afraid, and them that dwell therein; and they shall pour out over every high and eminent place an horrible star,
[41] Fire, and hail, and flying swords, and many waters, that all fields may be full, and all rivers, with the abundance of great waters.
[42] And they shall break down the cities and walls, mountains and hills, trees of the wood, and grass of the meadows, and their corn.
[43] And they shall go stedfastly unto Babylon, and make her afraid.
[44] They shall come to her, and besiege her, the star and all wrath shall they pour out upon her: then shall the dust and smoke go up unto the heaven, and all they that be about her shall bewail her.
[45] And they that remain under her shall do service unto them that have put her in fear.
[46] And thou, Asia, that art partaker of the hope of Babylon, and art the glory of her person:
[47] Woe be unto thee, thou wretch, because thou hast made thyself like unto her; and hast decked thy daughters in whoredom, that they might please and glory in thy lovers, which have always desired to commit whoredom with thee.
[48] Thou hast followed her that is hated in all her works and inventions: therefore saith God,
[49] I will send plagues upon thee; widowhood, poverty, famine, sword, and pestilence, to waste thy houses with destruction and death.
[50] And the glory of thy Power shall be dried up as a flower, the heat shall arise that is sent over thee.
[51] Thou shalt be weakened as a poor woman with stripes, and as one chastised with wounds, so that the mighty and lovers shall not be able to receive thee.
[52] Would I with jealousy have so proceeded against thee, saith the Lord,
[53] If thou hadst not always slain my chosen, exalting the stroke of thine hands, and saying over their dead, when thou wast drunken,
[54] Set forth the beauty of thy countenance?
[55] The reward of thy whoredom shall be in thy bosom, therefore shalt thou receive recompence.
[56] Like as thou hast done unto my chosen, saith the Lord, even so shall God do unto thee, and shall deliver thee into mischief
[57] Thy children shall die of hunger, and thou shalt fall through the sword: thy cities shall be broken down, and all thine shall perish with the sword in the field.
[58] They that be in the mountains shall die of hunger, and eat their own flesh, and drink their own blood, for very hunger of bread, and thirst of water.
[59] Thou as unhappy shalt come through the sea, and receive plagues again.
[60] And in the passage they shall rush on the idle city, and shall destroy some portion of thy land, and consume part of thy glory, and shall return to Babylon that was destroyed.
[61] And thou shalt be cast down by them as stubble, and they shall be unto thee as fire;
[62] And shall consume thee, and thy cities, thy land, and thy mountains; all thy woods and thy fruitful trees shall they burn up with fire.
[63] Thy children shall they carry away captive, and, look, what thou hast, they shall spoil it, and mar the beauty of thy face.
4Ezra.16
[1] Woe be unto thee, Babylon, and Asia! woe be unto thee, Egypt and Syria!
[2] Gird up yourselves with cloths of sack and hair, bewail your children, and be sorry; for your destruction is at hand.
[3] A sword is sent upon you, and who may turn it back?
[4] A fire is sent among you, and who may quench it?
[5] Plagues are sent unto you, and what is he that may drive them away?
[6] May any man drive away an hungry lion in the wood? or may any one quench the fire in stubble, when it hath begun to burn?
[7] May one turn again the arrow that is shot of a strong archer?
[8] The mighty Lord sendeth the plagues and who is he that can drive them away?
[9] A fire shall go forth from his wrath, and who is he that may quench it?
[10] He shall cast lightnings, and who shall not fear? he shall thunder, and who shall not be afraid?
[11] The Lord shall threaten, and who shall not be utterly beaten to powder at his presence?
[12] The earth quaketh, and the foundations thereof; the sea ariseth up with waves from the deep, and the waves of it are troubled, and the fishes thereof also, before the Lord, and before the glory of his power:
[13] For strong is his right hand that bendeth the bow, his arrows that he shooteth are sharp, and shall not miss, when they begin to be shot into the ends of the world.
[14] Behold, the plagues are sent, and shall not return again, until they come upon the earth.
[15] The fire is kindled, and shall not be put out, till it consume the foundation of the earth.
[16] Like as an arrow which is shot of a mighty archer returneth not backward: even so the plagues that shall be sent upon earth shall not return again.
[17] Woe is me! woe is me! who will deliver me in those days?
[18] The beginning of sorrows and great mournings; the beginning of famine and great death; the beginning of wars, and the powers shall stand in fear; the beginning of evils! what shall I do when these evils shall come?
[19] Behold, famine and plague, tribulation and anguish, are sent as scourges for amendment.
[20] But for all these things they shall not turn from their wickedness, nor be always mindful of the scourges.
[21] Behold, victuals shall be so good cheap upon earth, that they shall think themselves to be in good case, and even then shall evils grow upon earth, sword, famine, and great confusion.
[22] For many of them that dwell upon earth shall perish of famine; and the other, that escape the hunger, shall the sword destroy.
[23] And the dead shall be cast out as dung, and there shall be no man to comfort them: for the earth shall be wasted, and the cities shall be cast down.
[24] There shall be no man left to till the earth, and to sow it
[25] The trees shall give fruit, and who shall gather them?
[26] The grapes shall ripen, and who shall tread them? for all places shall be desolate of men:
[27] So that one man shall desire to see another, and to hear his voice.
[28] For of a city there shall be ten left, and two of the field, which shall hide themselves in the thick groves, and in the clefts of the rocks.
[29] As in an orchard of Olives upon every tree there are left three or four olives;
[30] Or as when a vineyard is gathered, there are left some clusters of them that diligently seek through the vineyard:
[31] Even so in those days there shall be three or four left by them that search their houses with the sword.
[32] And the earth shall be laid waste, and the fields thereof shall wax old, and her ways and all her paths shall grow full of thorns, because no man shall travel therethrough.
[33] The virgins shall mourn, having no bridegrooms; the women shall mourn, having no husbands; their daughters shall mourn, having no helpers.
[34] In the wars shall their bridegrooms be destroyed, and their husbands shall perish of famine.
[35] Hear now these things and understand them, ye servants of the Lord.
[36] Behold, the word of the Lord, receive it: believe not the gods of whom the Lord spake.
[37] Behold, the plagues draw nigh, and are not slack.
[38] As when a woman with child in the ninth month bringeth forth her son, with two or three hours of her birth great pains compass her womb, which pains, when the child cometh forth, they slack not a moment:
[39] Even so shall not the plagues be slack to come upon the earth, and the world shall mourn, and sorrows shall come upon it on every side.
[40] O my people, hear my word: make you ready to thy battle, and in those evils be even as pilgrims upon the earth.
[41] He that selleth, let him be as he that fleeth away: and he that buyeth, as one that will lose:
[42] He that occupieth merchandise, as he that hath no profit by it: and he that buildeth, as he that shall not dwell therein:
[43] He that soweth, as if he should not reap: so also he that planteth the vineyard, as he that shall not gather the grapes:
[44] They that marry, as they that shall get no children; and they that marry not, as the widowers.
[45] And therefore they that labour labour in vain:
[46] For strangers shall reap their fruits, and spoil their goods, overthrow their houses, and take their children captives, for in captivity and famine shall they get children.
[47] And they that occupy their merchandise with robbery, the more they deck their cities, their houses, their possessions, and their own persons:
[48] The more will I be angry with them for their sin, saith the Lord.
[49] Like as a whore envieth a right honest and virtuous woman:
[50] So shall righteousness hate iniquity, when she decketh herself, and shall accuse her to her face, when he cometh that shall defend him that diligently searcheth out every sin upon earth.
[51] And therefore be ye not like thereunto, nor to the works thereof.
[52] For yet a little, and iniquity shall be taken away out of the earth, and righteousness shall reign among you.
[53] Let not the sinner say that he hath not sinned: for God shall burn coals of fire upon his head, which saith before the Lord God and his glory, I have not sinned.
[54] Behold, the Lord knoweth all the works of men, their imaginations, their thoughts, and their hearts:
[55] Which spake but the word, Let the earth be made; and it was made: Let the heaven be made; and it was created.
[56] In his word were the stars made, and he knoweth the number of them.
[57] He searcheth the deep, and the treasures thereof; he hath measured the sea, and what it containeth.
[58] He hath shut the sea in the midst of the waters, and with his word hath he hanged the earth upon the waters.
[59] He spreadeth out the heavens like a vault; upon the waters hath he founded it.
[60] In the desert hath he made springs of water, and pools upon the tops of the mountains, that the floods might pour down from the high rocks to water the earth.
[61] He made man, and put his heart in the midst of the body, and gave him breath, life, and understanding.
[62] Yea and the Spirit of Almighty God, which made all things, and searcheth out all hidden things in the secrets of the earth,
[63] Surely he knoweth your inventions, and what ye think in your hearts, even them that sin, and would hide their sin.
[64] Therefore hath the Lord exactly searched out all your works, and he will put you all to shame.
[65] And when your sins are brought forth, ye shall be ashamed before men, and your own sins shall be your accusers in that day.
[66] What will ye do? or how will ye hide your sins before God and his angels?
[67] Behold, God himself is the judge, fear him: leave off from your sins, and forget your iniquities, to meddle no more with them for ever: so shall God lead you forth, and deliver you from all trouble.
[68] For, behold, the burning wrath of a great multitude is kindled over you, and they shall take away certain of you, and feed you, being idle, with things offered unto idols.
[69] And they that consent unto them shall be had in derision and in reproach, and trodden under foot.
[70] For there shall be in every place, and in the next cities, a great insurrection upon those that fear the Lord.
[71] They shall be like mad men, sparing none, but still spoiling and destroying those that fear the Lord.
[72] For they shall waste and take away their goods, and cast them out of their houses.
[73] Then shall they be known, who are my chosen; and they shall be tried as the gold in the fire.
[74] Hear, O ye my beloved, saith the Lord: behold, the days of trouble are at hand, but I will deliver you from the same.
[75] Be ye not afraid neither doubt; for God is your guide,
[76] And the guide of them who keep my commandments and precepts, saith the Lord God: let not your sins weigh you down, and let not your iniquities lift up themselves.
[77] Woe be unto them that are bound with their sins, and covered with their iniquities like as a field is covered over with bushes, and the path thereof covered with thorns, that no man may travel through!
[78] It is left undressed, and is cast into the fire to be consumed therewith.
The Word of The Lord.
Yes!! God creates evil.
In Jesus Name Thy Will Be Done, Amen and Amen.

Leviticus.26

[13] I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
[14] But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
[15] And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
[16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
[17] And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
[18] And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
[19] And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
[20] And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
[21] And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
[22] I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate.
[23] And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
[24] Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25] And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
[26] And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
[27] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
[28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[29] And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
[30] And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
[31] And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
[32] And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
[33] And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
[34] Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
[35] As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
[36] And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
[37] And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
[38] And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
[39] And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
[40] If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
[41] And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
[42] Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
[43] The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

The word of the Lord

Can't remember who said the following. In relation to god and evil

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.
Is God able but not willing? Then is He malevolent.
Is God both able and willing? Whence then is evil?
Is God unable and unwilling? Why do you call him God

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Originally Posted by marcolfo

Can't remember who said the following. In relation to god and evil

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.
Is God able but not willing? Then is He malevolent.
Is God both able and willing? Whence then is evil?
Is God unable and unwilling? Why do you call him God

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Epicurus, 'cept it was, "Then he is not omnipotent," aaand "Then whence cometh evil?" instead of: "Whence then is evil?"

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Originally Posted by a_little_wisp

Epicurus, 'cept it was, "Then he is not omnipotent," aaand "Then whence cometh evil?" instead of: "Whence then is evil?"

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:rolleyes: It's a translation of ancient Greek, so they're both correct.

All four questions are addressed in the book of Job

Did some god create evil? Mark Twain thought so:


"Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast"

Mark Twain, Reflections on Religion, 1906

This births another question, a very grave one- is there a greater power than God to create de-create and recreate anything?

Wouldn't it have been boring if everything was good?
I'm going to answer the question with a cliche: if there weren't hard times and evil for that matter, we wouldn't be able to appreciate good, we wouldn't be able to distinguish the good things, because then it wouldn't be possible for it to exist.
Another thing...maybe God wanted to have fun.
Alright that's a nasty joke, but if we think of it...if it weren't for conflicts and evil an enormous part of our human culture (literature, music, films etc...) would have never come to life..

I guess one question would be, does evil have any substance? Does the world have substance? Sages and mystics of all religions, once they have broken out of illusion, have seen God, and expressed it as a truth beyond expression. They've said, "there's an infinite light at the center and source of everything, and that is God." Sri Aurobindo put it this way; "Look up, O child of the ancient Yoga, and be no longer a trembler and a doubter; fear not, doubt not, grieve not; for in your apparent body is One who can create and destroy worlds in a breath."

They have all said that God can be realized, and they felt that heaven, by whatever name, God's kingdom, or a divine life, was all around and imminent. So if we can say that perceiving divinity everywhere and God in everything is true perception, then evil loses its substance. Sages and seers have also said that this world actually is God. As Swami Vivekananda said, "This is no world. It is God Himself. In delusion we call it world."

Didn't god create evil to give us a choice? To give us freewill? Or, should i say that Evil is a bi-product of giving us freewill? He wanted us to make our own choices. And we, as a people, decided to give into evil. And the story of Eden barrows heavily from other religions.

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

I guess one question would be, does evil have any substance? Does the world have substance? Sages and mystics of all religions, once they have broken out of illusion, have seen God, and expressed it as a truth beyond expression. They've said, "there's an infinite light at the center and source of everything, and that is God." Sri Aurobindo put it this way; "Look up, O child of the ancient Yoga, and be no longer a trembler and a doubter; fear not, doubt not, grieve not; for in your apparent body is One who can create and destroy worlds in a breath."

They have all said that God can be realized, and they felt that heaven, by whatever name, God's kingdom, or a divine life, was all around and imminent. So if we can say that perceiving divinity everywhere and God in everything is true perception, then evil loses its substance. Sages and seers have also said that this world actually is God. As Swami Vivekananda said, "This is no world. It is God Himself. In delusion we call it world."

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Are you basically saying that evil is not an entity. While God is? Evil is not a antimatter--it is simply a lack of light?

If we apply the Biblical interpretation of God, then yes, he created evil, for Man is created in God's image and evil surely exists on Earth.

Of course though, this question varies according to how one defines God, and more importantly, how one defines evil. Vegetarians may consider the slaughter of animals for consumption evil while Adolf Hitler may have considered his slaughter of Jews kindness. How one defines God is just as significant. So the question can be subjective, depending on religious interpretation or an independent belief of God.

In fact we simply make our on interpretations and then stick to that interpretation of God, the universe, the creation of the world and the like but the truth may lie somewhere else in an unknown zone. Logically speaking, why God created evil? Is it a humor or game God wants to play? There are so many sufferers and can God, the almighty one change it and make all his children happy? Does not God to take the responsibility for not imprisoning the Devil?

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Originally Posted by PierreGringoire

Are you basically saying that evil is not an entity. While God is? Evil is not a antimatter--it is simply a lack of light?

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Well I was not saying that evil is not an entity, while God is. What I am saying is that all of this world is maya, or it is a dream. Enlightenment, reality, is God. Nothing else, evil or good, is real. God is not so much an entity as the infinite, infinite peace, power, bliss and knowledge. And God is the source of everything and everyone. We're never separate from God. How can we be separate from our source?

So it's about perception. You see, the maya is like a book, it is like a nearly-infinite amount of information. And yet it is all like frozen in time. Why? Because beyond all the restrictions of space and time is God, the Witness. Therefore, God alone exists. For example, consider that there is an entity, God, who is infinite. That means, He knows everything and He can do everything. Therefore His nature is infinite power, peace, bliss and knowledge. That is also His nature, of infinite bliss. Anyway so this entity, God, can do everything and knows everything. So in relationship to Him, what else exists? In relationship to the infinite, what substance has the number 23? Anyway, this is an ancient Hindu idea that God alone exists.

In our deep-sleep state, we can hardly do anything.

Consider it is like this, if you can move at an infinite speed, how fast are the cars of this world moving? They are not moving at all, in relation. The same is true for the rest. God has infinite power, so nothing besides God has any power, or substance, or reality or existence, except for God.

That's very pretty, Nikolai, and I'd love to read about it in a novel. However, it's all embellishment. Things simply are what they are. What you've written is purely speculative mental construction; it can never be proved.

Yeah, I agree with the post above me. We can speculate where we stand in our relationship to God all we want to, but the fact of the matter is, evil exists. If one believes his God to be the Creator of everything that exists, evil cannot be excluded, unless turning a blind eye to empirical evidence is part of theology.

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Originally Posted by FoghornBellows

That's very pretty, Nikolai, and I'd love to read about it in a novel. However, it's all embellishment. Things simply are what they are. What you've written is purely speculative mental construction; it can never be proved.

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Duality is an illusion. And since we are under the illusion of duality, everything from that point is untrue. Every joy you've ever had, though it perhaps has been pleasurable, never let you saw the truth of your existence - non-duality, or unity. At the first desire, there is incompleteness, imperfection; a perfect being has no incompleteness, or desire. But realization of non-duality is completely inconceivable without direct experience of non-duality. But experience of non-duality cannot be understood by language or concepts.

It is inexpressible but not speculation, it is an experience. That non-duality goes beyond anything previous to it. No matter a king or a beggar, all is illusion based on duality. So if you realize you are one with the universe, with the cosmos, you realize you are far greater than any role you could pretend to be.

Realization of non-duality and simultaneous freedom of desire - in other words, acceptance of the present, the circumstances, non-attachment to happiness or distress - this bears the fruit of complete peace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Duality is an illusion. And since we are under the illusion of duality, everything from that point is untrue. Every joy you've ever had, though it perhaps has been pleasurable, never let you saw the truth of your existence - non-duality, or unity. At the first desire, there is incompleteness, imperfection; a perfect being has no incompleteness, or desire. But realization of non-duality is completely inconceivable without direct experience of non-duality. But experience of non-duality cannot be understood by language or concepts.

It is inexpressible but not speculation, it is an experience. That non-duality goes beyond anything previous to it. No matter a king or a beggar, all is illusion based on duality. So if you realize you are one with the universe, with the cosmos, you realize you are far greater than any role you could pretend to be.

Realization of non-duality and simultaneous freedom of desire - in other words, acceptance of the present, the circumstances, non-attachment to happiness or distress - this bears the fruit of complete peace.

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I think I might see what you are saying. Doesn't peace have a lot to do with being happy though? Happy, contentness, peace--can't they be interchangable? You make peace sound like an inebriated state! Or some kind of mysterious sixth sense that you need to have completely before you have it at all. I think we all experience little tastes of peace here and there. You make it sound like boiling water. You know when its boiling when its boiling as my mom used to say. So you only know what it is when you have it?

Serious question: How do I know I'm not enlightened?

Edited: Thinking about it more you could have meant that true peace isn't volatile. In other words it isn't too happy or too distressed. It dictates its mood depending on the situation?

Whatever enlightenment may seem to a person, I am not really interested in looking too much beyond how it might help someone calm down, reappraise things, keep things in perspective, etc. There might be other spiritual "benefits," but I think they might be easy to exaggerate.

Anyhow, if someone really has managed to get a complete perception of everything as being one, and getting past the duality entirely, then I hope they don't spend too much "time" peeking at other people's bank accounts, bathroom visits, romances, private chats, etc., certainly. (But perhaps they couldn't help it, once they dive in?)

On the other hand, if they simply are sensing that a minimization of thought expands one's focus, affects our sense of "self", and gives a peek at our perceptual machinery itself, and/or an insight into what becomes of our "self" once we perceive nothing else, or something like that--then I think such an experience can be quite significant indeed. Different from, and far greater in impact, but perhaps metaphorically akin to seeing a photo of the Earth from the moon or something. But also, something that one can't point at, and prove in all of its significance, to another person residing in another consciousness. I think it would be useful to have such an experience--but I don't think it, in itself, would be a good basis for turning one's back on a respect for the life-approaches of other individuals (enlightened or otherwise), nor even for disparaging the illusory world (maya) that I am, for example, typing on, and that separates each of us (in its illusory way...:)).

I think the idea of "peace" is of course good (great!) in the usual senses, as well as in the sense of a not-so-anxious sort of response to the world around one. However, I think this sort of thing can go too far maybe (at least in our imaginations), and it would be unfortunate for people to think that an enlightened person should be content with life in a slave-labor camp, a country that is corrupt, a relationship that is abusive, or as a second-class citizen, or with unjust restrictions on their curiosity, or with a friend's suffering, etc.

That they would desire to change things (and such desire might spring with clarity, and not be vulgar) would be something to applaud and encourage in a person, enlightened or not. Of course, that the enlightened person would act with a certain confidence and acceptance of the resulting "struggle" would be something that we should expect, and admire. But others would resist as well, naturally, and with passion.

For us to spend time trying to differentiate this dare-I-say-it enlightened sort of "desire" from other types might be a good thing. But I think there is a slippery slope that descends from an unbalanced, wholesale, and fundamentalist renunciation/condemnation of passion and desire in our lives.

I think it is good not to dwell on things, sometimes. And I do enjoy a nice walk in the woods, listening to and encountering Nature, and reconnecting with it. And I do (like most other people) make some decisions without thinking at all, when "being in the zone" seems like a good approach. But I feel some things are better when we think, have preferences, and have passion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PierreGringoire

I think I might see what you are saying. Doesn't peace have a lot to do with being happy though? Happy, contentness, peace--can't they be interchangable? You make peace sound like an inebriated state! Or some kind of mysterious sixth sense that you need to have completely before you have it at all. I think we all experience little tastes of peace here and there. You make it sound like boiling water. You know when its boiling when its boiling as my mom used to say. So you only know what it is when you have it?

Serious question: How do I know I'm not enlightened?

Edited: Thinking about it more you could have meant that true peace isn't volatile. In other words it isn't too happy or too distressed. It dictates its mood depending on the situation?

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I agree very much with what you are saying. Contentness and peace, those are definitely interchangeable. And that we experience little tastes of peace here and there, that is also true. But there is also a peace which goes beyond that. As life is unlimited, there are unlimited levels of peace, levels of happiness, levels of sanity, or spiritual growth, etc. But there is one specific boundary line which few ever cross. It isn't inebriation. Now there are more people in the Western countries who have come closer to this truth. There's people like Ken Wilber, who wrote books like "No Boundary," and they explored Eastern and Western psychology and philosophy.

Also several others have come to the idea that duality is an illusion. Lao Tzu, Alan Watts, Swami Vivekananda and Black Elk, all came to a paralell idea. As Black Elk said it, "Only when men shall know that they are one with the universe will they know peace in their souls." When I experienced this, I knew that I had never experienced it before, though I had been happy, peaceful, in love, many times if not most of my life, I had been joyous, as well as sorrowful, distressed, and all the other states of emotion. But I knew that none of these had reached the reality, the non-duality. Even the best of these was still in an illusion, even the best was, in relation, missing out.

And how to explain the peace? It's just that every single stress that we ever feel in this life, that is based on defense of the ego - or defense of the defense of - well, all of it is unnecessary, because the ego itself doesn't exist. As Buddhism says, "Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness." And then someone may say, "Doesn't that mean that life is empty?" But actually there is an underlying reality which we are missing. And realization of non-duality - is not an empty feeling. It's a feeling which can't be related to any other feeling. It's more than a feeling, it is knowing, a realization. And it's in full awareness an inexpressible joy and bliss. It is waking up from a dream, and at the same time being absolutely, completely filled with bliss, love, and knowledge. It is absolutely realizing the very highest ideal of love.

Other times, we feel love, perhaps if everything is perfect, we feel it all the time, and perhaps one day after many years of completely perfect life and practice, then we would attain the same realization. It is possible. But that is what I am speaking of, the complete realization of the ideal, which other times we merely feel at times, which when we remember sustains us. It is reazing simultaneously peace, bliss and knowledge basically.

I'm sorry in that I may have written too much, just in the attempt to describe it.

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Originally Posted by billl

I think the idea of "peace" is of course good (great!) in the usual senses, as well as in the sense of a not-so-anxious sort of response to the world around one. However, I think this sort of thing can go too far maybe (at least in our imaginations), and it would be unfortunate for people to think that an enlightened person should be content with life in a slave-labor camp, a country that is corrupt, a relationship that is abusive, or as a second-class citizen, or with unjust restrictions on their curiosity, or with a friend's suffering, etc.

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Of course - but your concern isn't specific to this topic, but rather to philosophy in general. You are saying that people should not mainly focus on philosophy, or spiritual practice or whatever, when there are very immediate and demanding problems in their life - an abusive marriage, a labor camp, etc. And what you say is definitely right - practical matters always come first.