There is no need to shoot the messenger! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
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There is no need to shoot the messenger! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
No you are obviously right. Unless the messenger concurs with the message that is!:)
atiguhya padma, There is no need to change the subject now. The point was that someone claimed a verse or the idea of 24 year orgasm was in the Qur'an, and I answered that the claim is not correct, and that there is no mention of that in the holy Qur'an. Period.
"Amra,
You have an intriguing use of the word proof. Tell me, how do you prove that a text is the word of Allah? Do you have some special formula, or some kind of scientific experimental method or something"
Lol. You are missing the point. It is very easy to prove if something is IN the Qur'an or not. It's not abstract science, but merely a matter of reading. ;) If it is in the Qur'an, then Tariq ali said the truth, if it is not, he lied. It is beside the point whether he or anyone believes the Qur'an to be the word of Allah s.v.t. However, if TAriq Ali says that muslims believe something, then the only way he could have assumed that is if he read such a thing in the Qur'an or the hadith; otherwise he lied. I doubt it that he read a novel from Danielle Steel about the 24 year orgasm and based on that came to the conclusion that muslims believe such things.
"Let me assure you that this sort of thing just doesn't happen. Furthermore, if Allah doesn't extirpate me by the end of the week say, I guess that will confirm that I have not invented a lie against Allah. I'll let you know how I get on. Tell you what, I'll give you a daily update on my health on this thread if you like!"
I quoted the verse as the answer to your inquiry. You wanted to know if there was a basis of such claim in the Qur'an, I answered there is not. If Tariq Ali consideres himself a muslim, he will most certainly be watchful of claiming wrong things about Allah s.v.t's Book, and my statement was a reminder to him or any muslim, of the danger of doing such things. No muslim will think it offensive if you remind him to beware of committing sins or claiming something that is not in the Qur'an and ascribing it to Allah s.v.t. Also, it is rather childish to set ultimatums to Allah s.v.t and base your belief or non-belief :) on whether or not a certain thing comes true within a week. If you feel the need to ridicule certain things, than there is nothing that can stop you from doing that, but I strongly believe in everything that is in the Qur'an, and feel it is unnecessary from your side to degrade someone else's belief just because you cannot accept it as the truth. It is a matter of respect toward other human beings more than anything else, that calls for certain etiquette when talking to others without ridiculing them or their ideas. I am not trying to impose any of my beliefs on you or anyone else, but if you ask a question about a religion and persumably want it answered, then there is no need to get offended if someone answers you from the source of what that religion is based on. By the way, if the scientists don't provide the proof of the specie we supposedly evolved from within a week, I will abandon my belief in evolution altogether. :D
Various major religions have one or more verses in their scriptures which hint that the gods of other religions are actually devils or demons disguised as God. It is difficult for anyone to disprove an assertion that the god which they worship is actually a demon.
St. Paul, in his epistles, actually has a verse or two to suggest that satan, as an angel of light, will assume the appearance of Christ for those "false" misguided sectarian Christians.
For example:
II Corinthians 11:13-15 says,
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness . . .”
And in the Qur'an we read:
"And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayâtin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking." Al-Baqarah 2:14
And in the Old Testament of the Jews, we find:
http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/Victor.html
The following is based on a translation of
"For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens". Psalm 96:5
The word translated as idols may also be translated as demons/devils.
(example of an interpretation of Psalm 96:5)
Then the emperor Maximianus was filled with anger and ordered that clubs be brought, and that Victor be stretched out in his sight and beaten. He commanded that the torturers should go beyond the third mark of the rack, and should shout at him, "Sacrifice to the Gods whom the emperor and everyone wor- ship." When Victor had been beaten the emperor ordered that he be set up straight, and said to him, "Victor, hear my advice, yield to and serve those gods: because no-one can better serve them than you, especially since you are distinguished by your grey hairs". Saint Victor replied, "Blessed David, king and prophet, teaches, "All the gods of the nations are demons, but our God made the heavens: if, therefore, they are called demons from the start, how will I worship them ?" Then the emperor Maximianus said to him, "Behold I give to you the rank of magister militum, much gold and silver, retinues and property, only sacrifice to the gods whom we worship". Victor replied, "I have already said, and will say it again: I will not sacrifice to the demons but I offer myself as a sacrifice of praise to God: because it is written "everyone who sacrifices to demons and not to God will be destroyed."
One may even find this notion in the Hindu Gita, but with an unusual twist:
God in the form of Krishna says, essentially, that all worship everywhere, comes to him, even though the worshippers be ignorant of His identity. Elsewhere, Krishna says that those who worship demons go to the demons, those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors, those who worship the demi-gods go to the demigods (i.e. everyone finds what they seek).
Apparently, Pres. Bush was asked publically if he thought that all worship the same God. Everyone held their breath, hoping that the answer would be a politically correct "yes" (which indeed it was.) But this is ignoring one of the final Surahs of the Qur'an, "The Surah to the Kafir (Unbeliever)": Say therefore to the unbelievers, "The god which you worship is NOT the God which we worship; and the God which we worship is NOT the god which you worship. So therefore, unto you your god and unto us our God."
Huston Smith, professor of comparative religion from M.I.T., cites Surah 5, verse 48 as one of the seemingly most ecumenical/interfaith verses: (paraphrasing from memory) "For my own purposes I have created you as different religions, so if you must compete with one another, compete in doing good works, and when you return to Me, I shall explain to you the reasons for the religious differences." But the next verse says "Therefore, do not be friends with Christians and Jews. They have each other to be friends with. He who is friends with them is one of them, and Allah does not help evil doers."
Exactly AP. But I think this a matter of what someone prefers to believe. I can choose to believe in Bhagavad Gita, Bible, Koran, or even Tolkien's Lord of the Rings books as the holy book which come from a superior being.Quote:
Posted by AP : You have an intriguing use of the word proof. Tell me, how do you prove that a text is the word of Allah? Do you have some special formula, or some kind of scientific experimental method or something?
Amra, though you said that there's no such thing as 24 years orgasm in Koran, can you please explain then about the angels which would be come the so called rightheous men's wifes when they got to heaven? Cause I was sure that I heard that verse being read from the Koran. FYI, I live precisely infront of a mosque. Are there any husbands available for ladies?
...just want to reiterate........nice to see intelligent rational posts on the site......
Nice to have you aboard Amra. by the looks of it, its gonna be fun!
And Sub......I can't decide if your latest avatar is Alexander Pope.....or Bob Dylan.....hehe...
Baddad...he's the great Jimmy Page :nod:..I saw The Song Remains the Same Dvd last nite...and I fall in love with this man :blush:
"But this is ignoring one of the final Surahs of the Qur'an, "The Surah to the Kafir (Unbeliever)": Say therefore to the unbelievers, "The god which you worship is NOT the God which we worship; and the God which we worship is NOT the god which you worship. So therefore, unto you your god and unto us our God.""
When interpreting the Qur'an, one must be familiar with many aspects of the revelation. For example, the process of revelation lasted 23 years, and the verses came to Prophet Mohammed a.s as instructions, reprimands, or guidance, depending on the obstacles he faced during the prophethood. So, when one quotes from the Qur'an, one must know what the cause of the particular reveled verse was, if it is to be applied only to that particular time, to certain group of people, or if it is universal. The scholars that interpret the Qur'an spend a great deal of reserach on the life of Prophet Mohammed a.s, comparing various hadith, and verses in the Qur'an, creating the context within wich a verse is to be understood and interpreted. The surah "Al-Kaafiroon" was revealed in Mecca, during the time when Prophet Mohammed a.s faced great challanges from the tribe Quraaysh. They opposed his teachings and when seeing that he was gaining influence among people, tried to pursuade him to stop, in every possible way. So, one time they offered him a deal, a kind of a treaty, saying that if he agreed to worship their gods for one period of time, they would in turn worship Allah s.v.t for a period of time, and so there would be mutual understanding and peace between them. In answer to that, Allah s.v.t revealed this verse, telling Mohammed a.s to tell them :"Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship Nor will ye worship that which I worship.Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. "(Surah Al-Kafiroon, Verse 1-6) Therefore, this particular verse is to be applied to idolators. Furthermore, when we talk about worship, most of the time, we assume it to be applied to a deity. But, one can worship other things beside a God, because worship simply means to express admiration, respect, love and devotion in a certain way to a certain object. So, we find that people worship many things, whether they are aware of that or not. If someone lets money rule his life, and become the driving force of one's own being, then that person is worshiping money. The same way, if we are madly in love with another person, and start ascribing godly characteristics to that person, we are in a way worshiping that human being. So, when Allah s.v.t says that we should not worship the way the non believers worship, it encompasses all those different, indirect ways people allow their lust, desires and temptations to overcome their reason and let other things become the object of worship other than the One who is only deserving of that.
As for whether or not we all worship one God, I am going to say yes. We all worship the Creator, the most Merciful, the Eternal, the Just, the Powerful, The Loving, the Forgiving, the Giving, the All Knowing deity that God s.v.t is. The difference is whether or not we are really worshipping HIM, or think that we are doing so, and whether or not we are worshipping HIm in the way He wants us to, or we only think so. That is the part where faith comes into play, and where all of us make our own decisions.
"Amra, though you said that there's no such thing as 24 years orgasm in Koran, can you please explain then about the angels which would be come the so called rightheous men's wifes when they got to heaven? Cause I was sure that I heard that verse being read from the Koran. FYI, I live precisely infront of a mosque. Are there any husbands available for ladies?"
Having righteous wives and a 24 year orgasm is not one and the same. ;) Allah s.v.t mentions many things that people will have in heaven and says that He will reward all of us in the way we deserve it, regardless of whether or not a person is a male or female. One of His attributes is that He is most just, and we believe that the absolute justice is with Him. Whether or not the descriptions of heaven are to be taken literary or not is not sure, but it is said that heaven is nothing like a human being can imagine or perceive in any way. So, all the descritions we find of it are merely to be understood as God's way of showing us in the limited way we can perceive it, that heaven is the place where all wishes and desires will come true, where there is no sorrow or pain, but some sort of ultimate bliss and eternal happieness in the presence of God. The Qur'an mentions that human beings will not have feelings of jealousy, envy, hate or pain in heaven, so one has to imagine that the life as we know it will not exist. The nature of a woman is different than that of the man, and a woman desires different things than a man does. Allah s.v.t knows this best, so He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with. The biggest reward will be, as is mentioned in the Qur'an, the feeling that Allah s.v.t is satisfied and the opportunity to look at Him.
Amra,
you say:
<unnecessary from your side to degrade someone else's belief just because you cannot accept it as the truth.>
What do you mean 'unneccessary'? What would you know of my necessities? There are plenty of reasons why I don't accept any scripture as truth. A whole list of them that would take far too long to discuss here.
<The point was that someone claimed a verse or the idea of 24 year orgasm was in the Qur'an,>
Who claimed that? If you want to go around preaching to people about what they should say or think, making claims of truth and proof, you should at least get your facts right.
For your information, Tariq Ali is too sensible to be a Muslim. Again, had you read my original post you would have seen this.
<Also, it is rather childish to set ultimatums to Allah s.v.t and base your belief or non-belief>
I agree. I was trying to respond in an appropriate way to this rather childish quote you made:
<Moses said unto them: Woe unto you! Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment. He who lieth faileth miserably. (Surah Ta-ha, verse 61)>
Because you do not seem to read my posts with much regard to precision, let me spell it out in a way that you hopefully won't fail to understand: if you suggest that somebody may be 'extirpated' by God/Allah/Krishna/any other s.v.t (all the same to me), for telling a little fib, then I suggest you need to look outside on the real world and observe with some precision how justice (or lack of it) seems to be handed out to the world. As an attempt to illustrate this, I thought I would paint a picture on the same kind of intellectual level that your quote works on.
<It is a matter of respect toward other human beings more than anything else, that calls for certain etiquette when talking to others without ridiculing them or their ideas.>
I hadn't noticed you observing this point too well. Quoting some claptrap about my (or Tariq's) possible forthcoming demise due to telling lies (gosh what a terrible crime! - absolutely shocking!), sounds very much like you are insulting my intelligence. It, quite frankly, sounds very childish.
Ok. No point going into circles. Thanks for the discussion.
Well, Amra, thanks at least for suggesting that the 24 year orgasm is not in the Koran, which was the question at the heart of this thread originally (although I would have to read the whole of the Koran before your suggestion could be seen as nothing more than <he said, she said> kind of argument, and unfortunately I don't have that kind of time to spare - especially when there are so many great books on my bookshelf)
AP
Please stop burying personal comments in posts regarding someone else's reading comprehension or posting style, they are considered ad hominem.
For example, there are many here who don't use english as their first language, or maybe have issues with dyslexia, etc. that effect their writing. They still have a right to post their thoughts freely without the above type of comments ensuing.
If I see any more in this, as usual, emotional discussion, I will have to close this topic.
Quote:
Main Entry: ad ho·mi·nem
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
Logos,
I presume your post refers to me. If I have in any way offended anyone with dyslexia, or any other language problem, then, of course, I wholeheartedly apologise. If you are suggesting that I have no right to comment on somebody making a false claim against me, with regard to what is or is not in the Koran; and what I have or have not said in a post, then I cannot offer apologies on such a matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
So you're saying that in heaven there still exist such thing as the difference of nature/desire of man and woman?
And I think you contradic your self here:
And more, you said, "He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with". Is this mean that each people would get different prize in heaven then?Quote:
Posted by Amra: Allah s.v.t mentions many things that people will have in heaven and says that He will reward all of us in the way we deserve it, regardless of whether or not a person is a male or female
And by the way you haven't answer my questions, and please, answer them directly with Yes or No (explanation added after that is ok):
1. Was I mis-heard about the verse in Koran which stated that there are angels provided as wifes to men in heaven? From your explanation, you implicitly answered that there is a verse which stated such thing. DO correct me if I'm wrong.
2. Then next Q, is there any similiar "benefit" for women? Meaning, are there He-angels available as husbands for women?
Oh Logos, you're such a party ruiner ;)..Please don't close this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
What do the letters after each of these names stand for?
"So you're saying that in heaven there still exist such thing as the difference of nature/desire of man and woman?"
Yes, there will be differences between men and women. We will not be sexless angels in heaven, but will be humans, although as I mentioned, some human characteristics will not be present.
"And more, you said, "He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with". Is this mean that each people would get different prize in heaven then?
Yes, people will be rewarded differently, based on their deeds in this life. There are differenet levels of heaven, and numerous hadiths hint on the fact that people will be ascending to the higher levels, based on their deeds. For example, one hadith talks about the importance of learning the Qur'an, and it says that when a person comes into heaven, Allah s.v.t will tell him to recite the Qur'an and climb the stairs of heaven, and that he should stop there where he finishes reciting the last letter of the Qur'an. So, that shows that there will be differences in the heaven.
"1. Was I mis-heard about the verse in Koran which stated that there are angels provided as wifes to men in heaven? From your explanation, you implicitly answered that there is a verse which stated such thing. DO correct me if I'm wrong."
There is a verse that says there will be virgins and righteous women provided for men. Men and women can choose to live together as they did in this life, or a men can have more than one wife.
"2. Then next Q, is there any similiar "benefit" for women? Meaning, are there He-angels available as husbands for women?"
There is no mention of "he-angels" for women in the Qur'an. The woman is not allowed to have more than one husband in this life, and persumably will not have more than one husband in the after life.
"What do the letters after each of these names stand for?"
a.s is the abbreviation for alleihi salam... meaning peace be upon him, and is said after one mentions a name of any prophet out of respect for them.
s.v.t is the abbreviation for subhanahu we teaAllah... and means "all praise be to Him".
Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering? Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitaram
Then why appeal to the basest lusts? I doubt the quran says that the sensual acts desribed are incomprehensible. Maybe the quality of skin is unexpected, and the colors, and the look of the place, but other things are pretty obvious details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
It is not true that a man may only take another wife for those reasons. He can have more than one wife simply by wanting to have her. That is a reason enough, and God gave him that choice. However, God also gave woman the choice to decide whether or not they want to live in those marriages or not. No one can force a woman to marry, and therefore, no one can force her to live in a polygamous marriages. As we have stated before, the Bible gives numerous examples of polygamous marriages, and does not condemn them in any way. The Prophet Abraham a.s had two wives, and it was perfectly fine. Another thing, polygamous marriages are rarely practiced in muslim countries today, and I don't really see a reason to even discuss them so exhaustively. In most countries today, there are proportionally more women than men, and in time, the ratio will only increase. What does Christianity have to offer as a solution to this problem? What will a woman do who cannot find a marriage partner because there is a shortage:) of men? Islam gave this solution; it may not appeal to you, it may not be something that you would practice, and you have the right to do so, but it is something. Prophet Mohammed a.s married many women who were widows, and who needed protection, but also married women for pleasure. Both reasons are perfectly fine, because we are human beings, and God does not expect us to be holy, nor to supress our human desires. He only wants us to stay within His limits.Quote:
Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering?
I don't know what this is supposed to mean? In heaven, husband and wife will be reunited, and will live in eternal bliss together. God is just, and those who earn paradise will enjoy God's mercy forever. I don't think that paradise will be place for a disgruntled jealous wife. :DQuote:
Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?
The greatest reward in paradise will be the opportunity to look at Allah's s.v.t face. There will be no pain, or suffering, and people will live in eternal bliss enjoying God's mercy. That is what the Qur'an teaches us. Other rewards that are promised are incomprehensible to us, as God Himself said that paradise is nothing a human has ever seen, or could possibly imagine. If a man will have virgins to enjoy, than that is God's decision, and I am perfectly fine with that. Who am I to doubt God's wisdom? Why would I care what anyone does if I have the opportunity to be in paradise in God's closeness? How earthly are your thoughts? :confused:Quote:
Then why appeal to the basest lusts? I doubt the quran says that the sensual acts desribed are incomprehensible. Maybe the quality of skin is unexpected, and the colors, and the look of the place, but other things are pretty obvious details.
Some hadiths regarding the treatment of women:
The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "The best thing in this world is a virtuous woman (wife)." - Riyadh us-Salaheen, 1:280
The man asked] "Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your father."
Parts of Prophet Mohammed's last sermon shortly after he died... This summerizes his teachings, and what kind of a man he was..
O People
Lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefor listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.
O People
Just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest); therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.
Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all interest due to Abbas Ibn ‘Abd al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.
Beware of Satan for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
O People
It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat you women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.
O People
Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat.
Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefor, do injustice to yourselves.
Remember one day you will appear before Allah and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone. People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."
I had written:
Quote:
Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering?
No HE did not. Any man that is married and is on the lookout for another wife is a bad husband - I mean, no husband at all. As I mentioned to you before, I have never looked to get anything back from any woman I have helped - a contemptable thing to condition help of widows on. But you make it sound even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
Actually, I already demonstrated from the only Writings the Arabs first knew of Abraham from - the Bible - that he erred in the whole Hagar fiasco in a state of despair in old age, and that GOD waited to fulfill Promises to him, withholding them until a time of Penance after having nothing further to do with Hagar. She had no problem bearing a child at once, and Abraham - who had long been trying to have a child - did not practice birth control - so Hagar having no further child is a good indication of all that I already adequately stated before (but your ideology won't admit of a Biblical hatred of polygamy).Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=15942&page=1
For political reasons, I cannot here address that. But I can say this: that the hope of "Paradisial polygamy" is a present problem of the heart that affects marriages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
There are a lot of women (and little girls) that are concubines against their wills - and some of them don't wish to be sexually entwined with anyone. Nuns were stolen by muslims of the Ottoman empire - one mothered a sultan. Not all are called to Marriage. Don't presume all women want a man - a woman doesn't exist just to let a man have a role filled generically in his life. Lust is not a need. The only worthwhile use for sex is as a part of absolute Unity of Pure Love between two that are inseparable on a personal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
Do you want me to praise someone for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
GOD doesn't want us to be holy? Is this your excuse for the man that you - not I - just named in the same train of thought? I thought you earlier told me that all Prophets are holy, that Muhammad is a prophet, and that he was holy.
We, being created in GOD's Image, ought to have self control. GOD has the ability to destroy infinite creations over and over, but HE doesn't do it just because HE can. We, too, ought to reflect such divine reserve, rather than acting on selfish impulse. Will you try to find fault even with this?
I had written:
Quote:
Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?
Either you truly do not understand the clear statement I made, or I do not understand your sense of justice. You answer my heartfelt contention against such disregard for an earthly wife, in favor of further "maids of paradise", as though the earthly wife ought to go to hell rather than paradise if she feels jealous. No woman ought to feel jealous of a man like that. No woman ought to accept being used as a tempoaray shell like that.Quote:
I don't know what this is supposed to mean? In heaven, husband and wife will be reunited, and will live in eternal bliss together. God is just, and those who earn paradise will enjoy God's mercy forever. I don't think that paradise will be place for a disgruntled jealous wife. :D
In true Love, jealousy, like pain in the body where injury has occurred, is a healthy indicator that something is not well. If one is not jealous when betrayed by a beloved, she isn't truly bound to that man by Love.
I already have seen what my eye did not see before, and have heard what I previously never had heard, and understand spiritual things that my soul could not concieve of until it gained a Living Spirit. And whose thoughts are earthly? The man who has no sexual self control, or the one that sees an ideal for all men to lay hold of, that reflects GOD? Such an awkward accusation.Quote:
The greatest reward in paradise will be the opportunity to look at Allah's s.v.t face. There will be no pain, or suffering, and people will live in eternal bliss enjoying God's mercy. That is what the Qur'an teaches us. Other rewards that are promised are incomprehensible to us, as God Himself said that paradise is nothing a human has ever seen, or could possibly imagine. If a man will have virgins to enjoy, than that is God's decision, and I am perfectly fine with that. Who am I to doubt God's wisdom? Why would I care what anyone does if I have the opportunity to be in paradise in God's closeness? How earthly are your thoughts? :confused:
When the Apostle Peter calls the woman the "weaker sex", he refers to her vulnerability to male harshness and force, and any one that, from the male position of strength, gives less than he takes, is nothing like GOD.
hello- welll goodness me what a thread :) ok I have a few points first off who was this tariq guy?
Anyway that bit about pure( virgin wives) As far as I KNow that snt what the ayyah says it says
(wa lakum feeha Azwajin mutahirat )
And in it you will havve pure spouses.
And On a grammaticall point if the ayah had said Zowjat (this is the feminie plural) and this is the masculine plural for many husbands. Actually my sister says (and shes our gramitcal genius) the word actually means couple or pair or marrige.
So the ayah is actually pormising pure marriages in heaven.
Of course the arbic languge (and grammer :sick: ) being what it is most everything in The koran appears to be addressing men because that plural can be unisexual but the feminine plural refers exclusivly to females.
next pont polyigamy. Personally I have no objection to it.
I dont think d mind if my husband decided to marry again in fact I may well support him.
However Ive never been in ove or married or anything so my opinion mya change with time. I know that nowadays smost people really really object to it muslims included, I know most opf the women in my family would ber tempted to kill their husbands if they remarried I think some of the masle realtives would have objections too.
AS for heaven Ive never trully understood the idea but as I understand it (:brow: ) Im not meant too (what no eye saw and all that). I rember when I was 8 asking if theyd go to heaven forever would they end up getting bored? Apparantly not.Maybe we wont be able to feel bordom then. What I belive is you will have everything you want before you even knew you wanted it. and maybe evryone's heaven will be different.
:D
That is your opinion, but we are not talking about opinions here. I am giving you the Islam perspective on this issue, you may accept it or not, but your opinion about a bad husand is irrelevant. Prophet Mohammed a.s was the best person ever to live, and was an amazing husband to his wives. We have many hadiths that come from Aisha r.a, and all we here are great praises about him. Men could be good or bad husbands depending on whether or not they fear God, not by how many wives they have. Also, why do you think that it is only your right to decide if you should marry or not? Don't you think that women derive pleasure from marriage as well? Don't you think that women have the right to live in a marriage, and enjoy its benefits, whatever they may be? As human beings, we have an inclination to live in a family, and everyone has a right to that. Prophet Mohammed a.s strongly discouraged living a single life, and encouraged marriages as soon as all necessary conditions were fulfilled. As I stated, some women do not mind living in a polygamous marriages, and God gave them the right to do so. Reasons may vary as to why someone decides to do that, but why do you mind something that both parties have free choices to? I know a person (not personally, but he is a prominent figure in my country) who is a very vell educated scholar, and who recently married another wife. My country is a secular contry, where polygamous marriages are almost unheard of. Who do you think forced that woman to enter a marriage like that? No one. She chose it, and he had a right to it, and so far no one has heard any problems about it. Again, as I stated, polygamy is blown way out of proportions because many men do not want to marry more than one wife, nor do many women want to live in polygamous marriages. Those who don't mind that have the choice to exercise it as well, and why should you prohibit them from doing so?Quote:
No HE did not. Any man that is married and is on the lookout for another wife is a bad husband - I mean, no husband at all. As I mentioned to you before, I have never looked to get anything back from any woman I have helped - a contemptable thing to condition help of widows on. But you make it sound even worse.
This is your free interpretation of what happened, but there is nothing in the Bible hinting on any of this. He was married to two women, and God NEVER condemned any of this in the whole Bible story. Why are you condemning something that God didn't condemn? Where in the Bible does God say that Abraham erred because of having two wives? Where does God say that it is fobidden to have more than one wife? Where is the Bible's hatred of polygamous marriages apparent? Can you cite verses that would support this idea of yours? There are verses that talk about polygamous marriages, and give instructions on how to treat the children of "the hated" wife, and the "loved" wife. ;) NOt one mention on the hatred of the polygamous marriage itself.Quote:
Actually, I already demonstrated from the only Writings the Arabs first knew of Abraham from - the Bible - that he erred in the whole Hagar fiasco in a state of despair in old age, and that GOD waited to fulfill Promises to him, withholding them until a time of Penance after having nothing further to do with Hagar. She had no problem bearing a child at once, and Abraham - who had long been trying to have a child - did not practice birth control - so Hagar having no further child is a good indication of all that I already adequately stated before (but your ideology won't admit of a Biblical hatred of polygamy).
This is an opinion based on nothing, so I'll just ignore it.Quote:
For political reasons, I cannot here address that. But I can say this: that the hope of "Paradisial polygamy" is a present problem of the heart that affects marriages
Can you give any kind of references to what you are claiming? Where are the concubines? What about those women who don't want to be sexually entwined? I don't know of any muslim woman who prefers to stay unmarried? Why should she? But, even if there are women like that, how does that relate to our topic? If the woman doesnt' want to marry, than she simply doesn't marry. Period.Quote:
There are a lot of women (and little girls) that are concubines against their wills - and some of them don't wish to be sexually entwined with anyone.
Any references? What does this have to do with our topic? Where does Islam call for stealing nuns? If the Ottoman empire did things that are not in agreement with Islam, I will be the first to condemn it. Just like you claim that the crusaders were not TRUE Christians, I can claim that not all of the Ottoman Empire was ruled by TRUE muslims, especially not towards the end of it. However, most historians will agree that countries that were ruled by Islam had a much higher tolerance towards other religions than those that were conquered by Christians. REad more about Sallahudeen Ayubi.Quote:
Nuns were stolen by muslims of the Ottoman empire - one mothered a sultan.
First of all, marriage is essential part of human life. There are few people in the world today, no matter from what background and culture they come frome, who choose to not be in a marriage at some point in their life. Human beings have desires and temptations, and marriage fullfills many of those desires, both emotional and physical. Islam is a religion aligned with human nautre in the way that it doesn't expect us to abandon our nature and become something else to be considered believers. We are not angels, because only angels do not sin, and we are not sheytans (followers of Satan/Iblis) so that we may not feel repentantce when we do sin. We are human beings, who have the free will to decide how they want to live, and those who claim to be believers will follow God's way; that means they will still sin, no matter how hard they try not to, but they will also repent every time they do so. It also doesn't mean that our desires will go away, but only that we will excercise self-control when it comes to not crossing God's limits when fulfilling them. Physical pleasure is part of human nature, and God does not expect us to abandon that or feel bad about it, but simply to exercise it within the limits of a marriage. It is said that a intimate relationship between a husband and wife is a good deed, for which God will reward people.Quote:
Don't presume all women want a man - a woman doesn't exist just to let a man have a role filled generically in his life. Lust is not a need. The only worthwhile use for sex is as a part of absolute Unity of Pure Love between two that are inseparable on a personal level.
Only if you really have the urge to do so. :)Quote:
Do you want me to praise someone for this?
All Prophets are sinless. This means that they do not commit sin towards God. However, they do make mistakes in the sense that they are not perfect. For example, there is a whole surah in the holy Qur'an that refers to one incident in which a blind man came to Prophet Mohammed a.s and asked him something while the Prophet was speaking, and the Prophet frowned on him. In the surah Allah t. reprimands him for doing that. This shows his human nature. Human beings are not sinless, and can NEVER be. We can NEVER be holy, no matter how much we tried. God says in one ayat that if human beings didn't sin, He would create other creatures who would. When we sin and repent, we are expressing our constant need for God and His mercy. However, we struggle each day to sin less, and to follow God's way, and it is a struggle that will not stop until we die.Quote:
GOD doesn't want us to be holy? Is this your excuse for the man that you - not I - just named in the same train of thought? I thought you earlier told me that all Prophets are holy, that Muhammad is a prophet, and that he was holy.
We don't believe that we were created in God's image. This is an absurd idea. Creator and creation can NEVER be the same. Self control is excercised within the limits that God imposed on us, and I never said that we shouldn't possess it. Human beings do not have a divine impulse, and I am not really sure what you mean with that. WE should always try to be better, and to become closer to God, to feel sorry for our sins, but to become divine or holy would go against our very nature.Quote:
We, being created in GOD's Image, ought to have self control. GOD has the ability to destroy infinite creations over and over, but HE doesn't do it just because HE can. We, too, ought to reflect such divine reserve, rather than acting on selfish impulse. Will you try to find fault even with this?
Paradise is God's reward to those human beings who follow His way. In paradise, people will not feel any suffering, nor will there be any injustice done to anyone. How then do you suppose to have a jealous wife in paradise? :) Paradise is eternal bliss in God's presence, and I just can't figure out how you can seriously talk to me about human feelings such as jealousy in paradise? Do you think someone who lives in the presence of God Almighty, and has everything that he/she ever wished for and more will find reason to not be happy? :confused: God promises us eternal happieness and justice in paradise, and we believe that this is true. In one hadith it is said that women who enter paradise will be made more beautiful than any huriye (virgin). What does this really mean? What is God telling us here? We don't know. All descriptions of paradise are very metaphorical, and we simply cannot imagine how life there will be. But, it would be ludicrous to think that the Creator of everything would create His paradise in such a way that there will be masses of disgruntled wives wandering around. :DQuote:
Either you truly do not understand the clear statement I made, or I do not understand your sense of justice. You answer my heartfelt contention against such disregard for an earthly wife, in favor of further "maids of paradise", as though the earthly wife ought to go to hell rather than paradise if she feels jealous. No woman ought to feel jealous of a man like that. No woman ought to accept being used as a tempoaray shell like that.
Do you think there will be jealousy in paradise? If you think that, then you think also that there will be suffering, and hence injustice. In Islam, God promised us that none of these will be present, and we believe in His promise. You can't compare human feelings on Earth to something in paradise. Is our human nature going to be the same in paradise as it is on Earth?Quote:
In true Love, jealousy, like pain in the body where injury has occurred, is a healthy indicator that something is not well. If one is not jealous when betrayed by a beloved, she isn't truly bound to that man by Love.
Lol. When God says that paradise will be something like we have never heard or seen, then it is undestood that these things were not seen or heard or imagined BEFORE we enter paradise. It doesn't mean before you became a beliver. ;) You have experienced NEW things, that doesn't mean you have experienced paradise. Unless the Bible teaches that you can become holy, divine, and enter paradise on EArth?Quote:
I already have seen what my eye did not see before, and have heard what I previously never had heard, and understand spiritual things that my soul could not concieve of until it gained a Living Spirit.
Yes. What else could they be? You are a human being, and you live on Earth. You cannot escape that nature, nor the limitations of the Earth as long as you are on it.Quote:
And whose thoughts are earthly?
Human beings cannot reflect God. Who said that a man doesn't have self control? What does this mean anyways? YOu may define self control one way, and I may define it differently. HOwever, claiming that someone doesn't have self control simply because he did something outside of your definition is ludicruous. God has defined what self control is, and I agree that those who transgress those limits are sinning, and need to repent. HOwever, a man having two wives has not transgressed God's limits, therefore he cannot be thought of as not possessing self-control. You may say that from your perspective, but in Islam, his self-control is just fine.Quote:
The man who has no sexual self control, or the one that sees an ideal for all men to lay hold of, that reflects GOD? Such an awkward accusation.
No one is like God.Quote:
When the Apostle Peter calls the woman the "weaker sex", he refers to her vulnerability to male harshness and force, and any one that, from the male position of strength, gives less than he takes, is nothing like GOD.
I don't understand why it is hard for you to accept the fact that women in Islam are not treated unjustly, nor are they forced to live in marriages they do not want to. I have told you myself that I do not condemnt polygamy when it is exercised within God's limits, and another member above my post:), a muslim woman herself, has claimed the same. Why then do you continue to speak FOR us, and imagine that we are treated unjustly, and that polygamy is somehow imposed upon us? Do you think that women are not intelligent enough to think for themselves, so that you need to save them, or you simply cannot accept the fact that we are perfectly fine with the role God gave us, and do not think of ourselves as being opressed in any way? An interesting fact that you may want to research is that most converts in Islam are women, who have all the freedom in the world (as you would claim), but choose to live a dignified life of a muslim woman. Why do you think that is so?
In order to treat of the matter of women today would be to open a political thunderstorm. It's as if you have never heard of all sorts of countries and there attrocious problems. Your worldview is unrealistic, and I am appalled.
Please keep personal comments out of this topic.
We are not discussing the treatment of women today in various countries, but the treatment of women in Islam. The treatment of women in all countries is pretty bad, not just muslim countries, but christian countries, and others. This has nothing to do with Islam, and I will be the first to condemn any attrocious:) problems that these women are facing. However, this has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam does not promote this kind of behavior. Did you know that 1 out of 3 women in the USA will be abused during their lifetime, usually by their husbands, boyfriends, or family members. Did you know that there are female genital mutilations in some muslim countries? Did you know that some women in India are burned alive after their husbands die? Did you know that there are more females being raped today than ever before? Did you know that on average a female makes about 0.20 cents less than a man, for every dollar they make, doing the same job? Did you know that there was never a female president in the USA? Did you know that women in SAudi Arabia are not allowed to drive by themselves? I could go on and on... Do you want to discuss these things? If you do, open a topic, and I will be the first to agree with you. HOwever, we are discussing Islam, and Islam does NOT promote any of these things, and anyone who does them needs to be punished and reprimanded.Quote:
It's as if you have never heard of all sorts of countries and there attrocious problems. Your worldview is unrealistic, and I am appalled.
Amra,
Is there a Muslim country that treats women with as much or more respect, in legal terms, as most Western non-Muslim countries? It seems to me that most Muslim countries I have read about have a far worse record towards women than the West. And that poses the question as to why this should be so. Of course, the answer may have more to do with the nature of society and politics than gender. It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
The question is really hard to answer, because there are so many factors influencing it that require an indepth analysis. Many muslim countries today are ruled by dictators who do not care about their people's well being. Also, the shariah law is not implemented in any of them. For a woman to enjoy all that Islam gave her, the shariah law had to be implemented completely. For the last couple of centuries (500 to be exact), the West has mingled into the affairs of the islamic world in various ways. Some are promoting secularism, others anything but Islam, and then we have many muslim countries who are torn between these things. They are neither democratic, nor islamic. Many muslim countries were ruled by communism that forbade any religious practice in the public. Because of that, muslim women could not go to school, as their headscarf was foribidden in public institutions. This happened to my country in 1970's, and many women were hit hard with this. They were left with no option to gain an education, work, and were looked at as secondary class citizens. The same phenomena is happening to Turkey right now. It is a country with 99% muslims, but they forbid women to wear the scarf to school, or work covered up in any public places. The reason they are doing it is because they want to get into the EU, who dictates to them how they need to treat women so that they comply with the international law whatever that means. Now you have 40 million women who either have to take off their headscarf, or be left uneducated, and without a way to gain an income. If the EU promotes freedom of religion, how can it then forbid these things in a country that they supposedly want to become MORE democratic? These are the reasons many women are left uneducated, and then of course her prospects of having an influence in the society she lives greatly decreases, making her a second class citizen dependant on men. The West simply doesn't realize the problems they are creating by wanting to force various social norms and cultures onto societies that have not lived under them for centuries, nor aspired to live under them. Further, it is hard to define what it means to treat women badly. Is it good that women in the west are "free" to take off their clothes, and that men use them as sexual objects to promote whatever there is to promote? Or, is it worse that women wear headscarves in muslim countries? It is hard to draw the line, but I would agree with you that muslim countries have a very unfortunate record when it comes to treatment of women, and the main reason for that would actually be the distancing from Islam they have experienced, lack of educations, and primitive cultural and traditional value that they adhere by. Muslims have many problems that they need to address, but the West needs to let them deal with those problems by themselves.Quote:
Is there a Muslim country that treats women with as much or more respect, in legal terms, as most Western non-Muslim countries? It seems to me that most Muslim countries I have read about have a far worse record towards women than the West. And that poses the question as to why this should be so. Of course, the answer may have more to do with the nature of society and politics than gender. It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
Technically Islamic law treats women better if anything. in real life the answer as I have seen is on the most part they are not really worse ( of cousrse ther are always the obvious exseptions) but opn the most part they are equally as bad as each other just in differeant ways.
As for head scarves and such I wear one. I would be extremly annoyed if someone tried to take it off me ( although I do not consder it a nessty to a practising muslim woman and may choose not to wear it a t a future date), it is my disciton and the law any law should not interfere with the expression of religioon unlesss it is being expressed in an obcviously illegal/ anti socval manner like oh i dont know human sacrifices) as long as I hurt no one by my practises why should I be forced to conform?
If anything I think that the whole lets put are selves on show idealism is worse. but Ive wondered off topic somehow.
I think much of the problems are perception its people looking in and not really understanding what they see or only seeing the obvious and mising all the little things.
Did you know that the jewish women wore scarves it was a symble of status and wealth ( or was that the christians Im always getting this muddled) anywway the christians also wore it as a simple of modisty ( again could be vise versa) but in the arab world, or at least in the arb world that I saw and lived in ( notice I am addmitting that I cant generalise as there are many layers to any culture and one nebver sees more than a few) wearing a scarf was hummm protection? It mena You were treated with courtisy and poltness and you--I was less annoyed by unwanted attention and comments than if I hadnt worn it.
atiguhya padma I dont want to cause a fight or anything butI think personally the west Is great on equality but respect isnt there? or do I mean the oppoisite? NO imean That . Thee is sexual equality sure we have women as political leaders and in high powerd jobs and everythng.Quote:
It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
But respect no, not really IM not saying there is no respect of women Im just saying Western socity doesnt really -despite the whole equality fuss- expect more of women that to want to catch a man. And to look pretty for them and well ahhh I cant explain it. Its a feeling I am much more comfortable walking in the streets in a muslim country (even at 7 in the morning when a blood splatered man in butchers boots asks me directions to the mental hospital (All true)) than I was today just going to the cornor shop n broad daylight in the western world.
:D
If any of that is sensible Ill eat my hat:rolleyes: :lol:
you made perfect sense little Night. It is good to see you and your words are always fair and kind. kisses
I think I know what aspect of Western culture you are troubled by, Nightshade, - and it troubles me too. But the other sorts of trouble for women in other parts of the world are harder to tackle, due to a strong handed male presence in the legal and political sphere. What many do by force without repercussions cannot be accomplished in the west, except sparcely - and all depending on clever hiding of it all.
Where the western problem has occurred in the workplace, I have stood against the majority, tried to dissuade females from caring to cater to them, and have actually walked from one city to another after a hard day's work to avoid riding with a married guy that flirted with a young co-worker. Just today, a woman from the local news paper that had said an offensive remark to me heard from one of my bosses that I was not the sort of person to make a carnal joke to, and she apologized for it. Here I can impact others freely - but what can an African or more easterly father or brother do whose child is abducted and made a sex-slave, and then cannot convince the police in his country to even bother with his desparate case?
Ok I have no intention of being rude or offensive but, havent you ever heard of white slavery? I forget the exsact statistics but they are much higher in the west than nearly anywhere else. or raher the west is the market where the slaves are bought to.
Can I ask if you only knowthis stuff from western sources? Becasue it doesnt quite work like that. If anything in the arb world tehey have to hide it more becasue alot of what your talking about would lead to capital punishment however you are. If you donty get caught by the law the masses woukld end up revolting and you lose your head or worse youd be caught alive.
That kind of abuse of women is takn very very seriously. I mean Rape is a capital punshment and in there your morelikly to gt convited than the west were its so much harder to do.
Anyway I hope that didnt come across a srude.:D
Most such activity by western whites occur far from their homeland, in places far from the west, where the men of that land provide girls to them. These westerners would lose much of their hold on female victims if they did not find environments that facilitated their crimes.
It has nothing to do with ethnicity, but rather with cultural and geographical strongholds. I hope that clarifies my statement, without tripping up my post with spills of politics. In trying to go back over a previous statement, I am also trying to avoid widening the margin of political content. It seems this last exchange was general enough (I hope).
What does this have to do with Islam? Does the Qur'an say that ANY woman should be made a sex-slave? Trafficking mostly happens in poor countries where families are so desperate that they resort to these things. One of the countries where it happens the most is Ukraine, where majority of people living are Christians. If it happens in muslim countries, then I have not heard of it, because it would go against EVERYTHING Islam stands for. Every time we have a discussion you simply bring on million of different unfounded accusations, that you never support with any kind of references, and when you see that you made a mistake, then you simply move on to the next, even more ludicrous accusation. :confused:Quote:
but what can an African or more easterly father or brother do whose child is abducted and made a sex-slave, and then cannot convince the police in his country to even bother with his desparate case?
What if I would say that since some Christian countries are working towards legalizing prostitution (Australia for example), that means that Bible promotes prostitution and forces these women to sell their bodies. You see how absurd your way of discussing things is? You continue to mix what people in some countries (that may or may not have a distinctive muslim population) do with what the religion itself stands for. Every third American woman is abused by a men, does that mean that the Bible promotes this kind of behavior? Then there is child abuse by priests!!!!? Does that mean the Bible promotes this behavior? After all, they are the saints you pray to, and ask for forgiveness,and supposedely they are holy? The USA has the highest divorce rate of any other industrial nation. I must conclude, based on these observations, that Christianity promotes child abuse, prostitution, and divorce. There we go. :D
If you were to say that, you would be guilty of putting forward a flawed argument. Is legalising prostitution is the same as ‘forcing’ women to sell their bodies? By the way, how many western democracies consider women sufficiently different from their male masters to justify denying them the right to drive?Quote:
Originally Posted by “Amra”
Isn’t what people do in ‘some countries’ a good way of understanding what the religion stands for? It might not give us the letter of the law so to speak but it gives a good idea of how that law translates into the behaviour of the man and woman on the street, especially in countries where the political system is not entirely independent of those countries’ religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by “Amra”
Would you say that there is absolutely no correlation between the tenets of a particular religion and the attitude towards women characteristic of those who practise that religion? Having lived in and visited a number of different countries for over twenty years, I would say it does. This does not mean that I believe any particular religious text is responsible for promoting certain behaviour towards women but that certain attitudes are embedded within those texts; or rather that certain generated meanings become foregrounded and others (if they exist at all) are marginalized.
I find the situation here in Thailand very interesting. The majority of Thais consider themselves to be Buddhist. Despite the perception of many people in the West, the majority of Thai prostitution caters for Thai men. So-called sex tourists are simply far more visible in the western press so the uninformed assume that the whole country is filled with women exploited by western males. Interestingly, western males aren’t the only males who make use of the services of Thai women. There are particular areas that cater for particular nationalities or cultures. As a ‘farang’ (what the Thais call ‘foreigners’), I am used to waking around the bar girls areas of Bangkok and being told repeatedly, ‘you handsome man’. However, when I stray into an area where most of the restaurants and bars display Japanese characters in their name signs, I am completely ignored. These areas are strictly for very rich Japanese men and the girls are, by western standards, more attractive and usually in their late teens and early twenties.
The Soi 3 area of Sukhumvit caters for Muslim males. The prostitutes there are generally very different from those in other areas. They tend to be older, more weathered and usually darker skinned (the Thais seem to revere fair skin).
When I get the chance, I try talking to the prostitutes in whichever area they work. I have been told on a number of occasions that the Soi 3 area women are older and more weathered because only the more desperate will cater for Muslim men. They say that these men treat them appallingly and anyone who can make a living from being desired by western men will do so and avoid commerce with those who treat them like pigs. Those who are not considered attractive to western eyes have to endure being treated like animals. Should I assume that these men’s values are in no way the product of a certain attitudes enshrined in their ‘beliefs’? Is it surprising that women are treated as objects by supposed proponents of a faith that affords them few freedoms?
Perhaps people should ask themselves one simple question – As a woman, would I prefer to live in a country promoting western values or one promoting Islamic ones? I don’t think it should take them too long to reach a decision.