Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
Sorry, didn't mean it to come of as rude.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
Sorry, didn't mean it to come of as rude.
To papayahed:
No problem, I just don't want any animosity on my thread.
To el01ks:
I haven't read many of the novels you listed, however, I loved Pride and Prejudice and Nicholas Nickleby. Have you read The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck (one of my favorite storys).
I haven't read any HP stuff and I won't, I've heard and read enough reviews to conclude it's mediocre stuff :)
I don't like HP converts trying to tell me why I *should' read it either, that is the most annoying thing about it to me. But then I usually go against the grain on a lot of stuff.
I didn't find papayhed rude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
Interesting how this topic is bringing out some, erm, expressive posts by people :D
And uh, let's not get personal or take things personally, we're talking about a book, right? :)
Logos - you go against the grain? But as you haven't read the books, you're just taking other peoples' viewpoints without any firm critical base for yourself. If you read the books and hated them that might be more 'against the grain' as the majority seem to like them! Just taking someone else's ideas on something and letting them form your own lacks originality, and to be honest, sense - how can you know if you like/dislike something if you never try it?
I'm not trying to convert anyone - I like the books, prefer them to the films, don't think either are great literature, and don't really care if people like them or not! But it's not rebellious or anything to let other people form your opinions.
(ps - not supposed to be personal!)
OOOPS! I'm very sorry I hit the wrong button I did not mean to `edit' your post.
el01ks, I didn't mention being a `rebel'.
Actually at this point in my life I'm pretty aware of the fact that most pop culture bores me to tears, I came to that conclusion on my own :) so this is no exception.
If it's a #1 hit in movie in theatres, number one song or "Best-selling Book" most likely I have no interest in it.
Yet again el01ks I agree with you! (Gosh we must be reading each-others minds) I am not a fan of Harry Potter but I have read all of them for two reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by el01ks
1. Firstly, so no one can frame me as a hypocrite because there is nothing that upsets me more then a hypocrite.
2. Secondly, because there are entertaining. I will be the first to admit that it is fun to read Harry Potter. The reason I am against it is because it is so overrated.
I didn't say you said that you were a rebel, but that was my interpretation of your use of against the grain!
I don't care if something is popular or not - you don't know if you like it till you try it. I wouldn't decide not to see/read/listen to something just because it was popular.
I find the books to be adversely overrated, but they do nonetheless have the semblance of entertainment. They have also decreased in effort and enjoyment as the series has continued. Though there are more books coming, I think the author is tuckered out. And there are other series of fantasy and fiction that are not as poorly written, are more creative, and might have actaul impact on my life. That said when the next one comes out I shall still read it if anyone one I know has a copy. But I can wait a long time on that.
It's all about your view on literature.
I think the purpose of literatur is the following:
a) to make/help us understand other people and see things from their point of view (and maybe undertand ourseves too)
b) to be an escape from the real world (problems and stress etc)
c) entertainment
I think the Harry Potter books fullfill all of this.
Harry Potter rules!! And you're correct that all does apply. Yuo have great taste.
These are the type of pro-Harry Potter responses I normally get. Incoherent statements that the author does not back up. I thought that on a forum full of bookworms and intelligent people I wouldn't find this, I was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAcademics8290
Levenbreech Vor,Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
You have started this thread to see whether there are other people on the Forum who share your view that HP books are overrated. As you might have expected, some people do and some don't. If you are not willing to hear their opinions and respect them, maybe you should not have asked for their views in the first place.
Not so long ago, within this thread, you asked another member, who simply expressed her thoughts, not to be rude. Now, I will ask the same thing; please respect others' views and do not resort to name calling simply because their opinions differ from those of yours.
Going back to the subject... I have read all the HP books except for the last one, which I will read in future as well. They are aimed at a certain age group and, keeping that in mind, they are good. However, we hardly all agree on what a good book is. It is simply something we will have to agree to disagree that we have different tastes.
I am curious as to what you find wrong with the Harry Potter series. Do you disapprove with the themes, plots, characters, style, or something else? I have been accused of being a bookworm for decades, I am usually classified among intelligent people, and some people think that I am a fair writer. Although J. K. Rowling targetted an audience that I am no longer part of, I liked the Harry Potter books that I have read. I think that Rowling injected universal themes into an interesting setting that allowed her to create characters and situations that she couldn't work with in the England of the Muggles. Fantastic literature has been used since ancient times to emphasize themes that were easier to address outside of the ordinary reality. For books targetted at teens the style and vocabulary were quite sophisticated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
I now realize that my statement was uncalled for and I'm very sorry about it.
However, when discussing HP I like to have in depth conversations where I can be persuaded and I can persuade my "opponent". The statement "Harry Potter rules!!" is not supported and can not be debated beyond a simple I'm right your wrong argument.
Once again sorry,
Levenbreech Vor
There is a high degree of subjectivity involved when assessing a book, but I think one can look at it from the point that it's good that people are reading at all.Even if you are not a huge fan of Harry Potter yourself, it is rather refreshing to hear that many little kids have started to read because Harry Potter introduced them into a whole new world of books.I think the comments about young children choosing to read, instead of watching another mind-dulling TV show or playing video-games all the time, is a positive step for literacy and may encourage these developing minds to read much more in the future.They may eventually decide to try and explore a whole wide range of genres which may increase their love of literature, which originated with the exposure via the Harry Potter series.An exciting and new horizon may lurk around the corner of the bookshop as they discover their own passion for stories and now wish to read extensively.Personally, I have only read the first one(ages ago), but will consider reading the others in the future.I have seen the first films though, but haven't found the time the read any of the others as I always seem to have so many on my read next list already.So from this perspective, I can't see any detrimental effect and problem with young people reading Harry Potter; even if the writing itself is not the most exceptional in the whole history of literature, it still provides an enthralling story for many and allows one to use and open the mind in a realm of imagination.
I disagree with that. Harry Potter was the first book in English that I read by myself and that I actually liked. The school that I was going to my first year here gave us this list for summer reading and frankly, I didn't like them (later I read them again and they weren't that bad)... Anyways, after I read Harry Potter, I got more interested in reading :D. I read the second and third volumes and afterwards, when I started school, I had this teacher who had a very large library at the back of her classroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
First book after HP- Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen...been reading ever since
Same happened to me, Chamber of Secrets was in my summer reading list. It was the first english book I read leaving fairy tales. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by samercury
I loved the series. It made me love the books. :D
I find your obloquys against the HP series to be unfair and somewhat invalid. I see that you are comparing HP with "the great classics" you speak of. Yes, perhaps someone who reads HP would not read "Great Expectations". Why would they? The styles of writing of both books are greatly unalike. Great E. was written in the 1800s. The text has an old English quality which could prove difficult to read for the modren general reader. HP however, is, as you said, written in a childish manner, therefore attracting a larger audience, and therefore outselling those great classics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levenbreech Vor
Don't get me wrong, Great Expectations is a wonderful classic. I just feel that most of us, sometimes, just wants to quit reading those books that require of us to think greatly and deeply before we may understand the story, and grab an easy-to-read book and be entertained.
Do you feel HP is overrated because it is written in simple plain English language and not the lyrical prose you find in classics? Or is the story really that bad? Choose the former and you'd be unfair and quite discriminatory. Choose the latter and I'd be baffled, since I found HP fun and entertaining.
I guess I always thought the best selling novel of all time would not be about some kid that is magic... There are just better books out there, and I am not even talking classics because I go through periods of reading classics and I am not in one right now.
WOW! :eek2:Quote:
Originally Posted by samercury
I guess I have never heard a story like that. If Harry Potter really does get people reading then I might concede that it’s not so bad.
I wonder what the statistics are about Harry Potter and books read next.
I completly agree with the first post, however, I must say that I contradict myself. It is one of the easiest reads one will find out there, and one of the easiest to loose your self in. I read the last one between 2:30 one day and 10:00 the next.
However, they offer no necesary thought at all to read and comprhend. In a world when very few kids read, let alone adults, it forced people to begin to look at books. In my high school if you ask any one if they have read harry potter, they will most likely say yes, but if you ask them if they are readers, they will all say no.
For this i am thankfull to it, for it has made some people in this Telivision controlled world turn them off and open a book.
Harry Potter seriously annoys me. I actually bothered to try to read the first book, before the whole HP insanity kicked in but I couldn't get myself to actually enjoy it. Everyone was simply...contrived. At some point I felt I was reading a strangely silly version of The Magician's Nephew by C.S Lewis, so I put it back and re-read the classic Narnia story instead. To this day, I haven't regretted it.
I feel like Harry Potter is a sorry excuse for literature. The writing is poor,and the stories are pretty adolescent.
After reading the latest installment of Harry Potter I've found I'm enjoying the books less and less. The series seemed to peak with the fourth book when it was fun and intriguing but now Harry's become a bit of a snark, irrelevant and moody although I must admit some teenagers do make the changes he has.
I think the thing I dislike most about the books, and I've enjoyed the first four mind you, is that they take so much from other good author's. Reading book six, the Half Blood Prince, I felt somewhat like Nocturnal except my reaction was less spontaneous as I did read the entire book. Afterwards I felt like calling the plagiarist police! That’s a little annoying and yet I’m curious to see what the last book will be like and I’ll probably snag that book up from a friend like the latest. No point in buying it.
Harry Potter is not an educational book. it' s more for enterainment. As for me, I like it. I like adventure and fantasy book you know. I don't care if it's non-EDUCATIONAL. :argue: :rolleyes:
Hello guys
I think I joined in a bit late as most seem to have had their say in the matter. And I see that I am probably the only avid Harry Potter fan here. And I am an adult!!!
Before I state my views, I'd like to confess my lack of sophisticated knowledge of literature. I read books as a hobby- so my choice of books is probably not the most intellectual, but I love Harry Potter. And I find that besides the tight plot, the books do try to delve into deeper issues- growing up, dealing with the loss of loved ones etc. In fact, one of my best quotes from the books is the one when Dumbledore consoles Harry about the early loss of his parents and says, "Your parents are alive in you". I don't recall all of what he said, but in essence he talked about how the dead are alive in the minds of the ones who loved them the most. It might be just me, but I felt really touched by these lines. And the fact that JK tried to talk of such profound matters in books that are mostly targeted at kids was quite impressive to me. The loss of loved ones is probably the most heart-wrenching and difficult thing to live with even for the most mature adults and her take on it was quite profound and interesting. This is just one example, but there are numerous others in these books. I feel that the worth of a creation should be decided by how many lives it can touch and by that measure, Harry Potter is assuredly a modern classic. It has left an indellible mark on the publishing and reading world and who knows, it might even lead our new-young readers to classics like Shakespeare and Joyce!!
i too am very late at expressing myself. I admit that the sheer overwhelming consumerism of the hp books has prejudiced me somewhat against even picking up my first one to read. however having read some of your opinions i will do so because to judge a matter before hearing the evidence seems to be grossly unfair. and i hate that sort of thing. so even if it is with a lack of excitement i will get going and buy my first harry potter and see what all the talk is about.
i too love the good earth by pearl s. buck. in fact her writings made a huge impact upon my life and life choices. her thoughts and her worlds, her two worlds captivated me and forced me to evaluate my life and what i would do with the years allotted to me, to make a difference somehow in this world i roam about in.
I only started reading the Harry Potter books after the fourth one came out. I wasn't much interested in reading them before that because all the hype sort of put me off. But after reading the first, I did get intrigued enough to read the others and have been a fan since. (Although the 6th book wasn't quite up to par in my opinion and has taken the plot in another direction...but let's see how it turns out.)
I don't think it's true that readers of the series are all people who don't read books other than popular literature. I enjoyed the HP series and read other 'serious' works as well. My favourite writers include Joyce, Shakespeare, Faulkner, Virginia Woolf and many others. And there's plenty of evidence if you only read some of the fansite editorials that there are other Harry fans who have much deeper knowledge of literature. One editorial even detailed how Rowling used Proust's literary techniques in her work. Rowling's writing style has to be simplistic as her main audience comprises children. But she does draw from mythology and literature. Harry Potter may not be a literary classic or even the best fantasy fiction, but it is a compelling read in my opinion.
Well, what a set of interesting opinions :)
one comment, and then I'll write my personal view on hp books
Yeeees, I definitely think a novel should have good vocabulary and good grammar. As for a novel making one more intelligent, well, that depends on the client's material, so to speak :D generally, yes, that should be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by el01ks
I have read the first five hp books. I may read the subsequent ones, because I am curious how the author will sort things out and if the characters will actually grow "up". But not because they are good literature. They're not.
I do believe they are good books for one to start reading in English. The language is pretty easy, the plot is not complicated, therefore I would rather recommend Harry Potter than my favourite Terry Pratchett to someone who doesn't have a very good command of English. However, I had the surprise of some of these people disliking Harry Potter and choosing to read other, more complicated books instead (yes, even TP). Apparently, they got bored. :p
After the first read, when I just followed the story as such, I re-read the books and ended up with an amazing list of what an author should NOT do :D
I have kept that list as future reference for my own literary attempts.
I know why it appeals so much to kids: the idea of a kid just like themselves, who suddenly finds out he's a wizard and goes to study at this awesome wizarding school is a perfect hook. I bet most kids imagine one day this will also happen to them and secretly wish they have been adopted :D
The rest is just the effect of a huge marketing action. Hurray for whomever devised it.
I feel a bit like this has been taken out of context... I am not advocating poor English in literature, but I believe that an expert use of vocabulary is not essential for a book to be enjoyable. If the vocab is too advanced for potential readers, then it would put off a lot of them! Which is why a lot of people have trouble with getting into 'the classics' if the writing style and vocabulary is alien to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightShade
I don't think I will ever agree that a book must be educational to have merit, it sounds a bit too much like the 18th/19th century belief that well-bred young women should only read 'improving' works, as anything of a less prudish tone might corrupt them! As I said before, what's wrong with just enjoying the plot?
If something is very badly written, it can take away the meaning of the text (as the editor for the reviews/features part of my universty's student website, I once spent an hour re-writing a review of Master and Commander because it was so poorly written - and I hadn't even seen the film!) and make it impossible to enjoy, but the Harry Potter books are readable.
ah, "expert use of vocabulary". That would indeed make the book difficult to read. I agree with you on this one, sorry for the misunderstanding.
However, I found it upsetting that J.K.Rowling doesn't diversify her wordpool :p repetition is annoying and there are such things as synonyms out there... it's a shame not to use them, really :D
As for the "educational" argument, I have the strong belief that books shape readers. Unknowingly, I might add.
I may read a book just for the plot, but then again there's no telling what my mind will pick up from it and store somewhere safe until it's needed, if you get my meaning.
ps - I cannot say Harry Potter is not educational - it's taught me some fair bits about writing with style :p (as I said in my previous post).
I'm an English major. I don't watch TV simply because I spend too much time reading--not just what's assigned in class, but what I choose to read on my own as well. The vast majority of what I read on my own would be considered "good literature"--I just reread Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, and I'm currently taking my time over a copy of The Marriage of Heaven and Hell with the original plates.
And, y'know, that's all well and good. But sometimes, just like with anything else, you need junk food. Harry Potter is quick and light and fun, and it fulfills that occasional junk food requirement. I have a close friend who is also an English major, and is just as passionate about literature as I am--maybe even more so, because he came from a home where his reading material was strictly monitored, and he's overwhelmed at what there is to read. A few weeks ago I loaned him a young adult book I'd borrowed from my sister. His response? "Wow. I love what I'm reading, but it makes a nice break to read a high school book again."
I don't look at this as an argument for Harry Potter; rather, it's an argument against taking literature so seriously. Yes, it's vitally important, but what's the point if you can't have some fun once in a while? That's what books are for, after all. I can appreciate the meter of Byron or the phrasing of Wilde perfectly well, but every now and then, the analyzing brain cells must go off and let the having-fun cells take over.
There is so much better children's fantasy out there that I think it's kind of sad that HP gets so much of the attention, but in and of itself it's not bad. Just . . . not challenging. I don't mean challenging on a reading comprehension level, I think it's fine for that (and I imagine American kids of this generation will be way more literate in British terms than many others are!), I mean challenging in the sense of firing the imagination. For all its magic, most of what goes on in the magic world works just like the Muggle world with shortcuts. They're perfectly fine kids books and enjoyable - it just gets a bit spooky when you find adults considering it great literature. Here's a quote from Ursula Le Guin - I don't think she was talking about HP specifically, but I'm sure the craze is part of the movement she's talking about. (I'll admit to being a much bigger fan of hers than of J.K. Rowling's. I was reading Earthsea at the prime Potter ages)
SP
"Commodified fantasy takes no risks: it invents nothing, but imitates and trivialises. It proceeds by depriving the old stories of their intellectual and ethical complexity, turning their action to violence, their actors to dolls, and their truth-telling to sentimental platitude. Heroes brandish their swords, lasers, wands, as mechanically as combine harvesters, reaping profits. Profoundly disturbing moral choices are sanitized, made cute, made safe. The passionately conceived ideas of the great story-tellers are copied, stereotyped, reduced to toys, molded in bright-colored plastic, advertised, sold, broken, junked, replaceable, interchangeable."
- Ursula Le Guin, preface to Tales of Earthsea
Tales of Earthsea came out decades before Harry appeared. It was quite good, but it is not as absorbing as the Harry Potter series.
Tales of Earthsea....I don't really like that sery by LeGuin- I like some of her other series though....
On HP:
-Now when I read the whole series back, I think that the books are getting less and less interesting as time goes on...I still think that the 1st book is good :D
....I still want to know what happens in the end...
Yeah, Harry Potter is fun the first time through, and maybe even the second, but after that...well. I enjoyed the first book the most simply because it was fresh: Hogwarts, Quidditch, etc. The books are not all the same, but neither are they fundamentally different from eachother. It's new and fun at first but the glamour wears off as the story goes on; however, I gotta hand it to the author for creating memorable characters. :)
Oh my God! More than two-thirds of the posters actually like Harry PottyTrainer. Am I among philistines here?
*Pulls hair out by the roots*
Are those independent observations, or do you have some problem with Rowling's writing?Quote:
Originally Posted by starrwriter