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Out of curiosity I did a little research on Major Robert Gregory, he was an Irishman born in 1881 and died 1918, he was a very accomplished cricket player as well he excelled at bowling, boxing and horse riding. He was also an accomplished artist.
He was killed at the age of 37 in the war, he was an airman and an Italian pilot mistakenly shot him down.
Oh, good, we've moved on to the next poem. I was wondering how long we were going to linger on the first one. I'll post something on this after I get back from the store.
When I read this poem I see the calm, reflective mood of the first poem being overwhelmed by loss. The first few stanzas have an even tone and portray the deaths blandly, but the death of Robert Gregory is too much for the tone of the first stanzas. This is partly setup, of course. Yeats uses the first stanzas to heighten the effect of the last ones. To show how much Robery Gregory meant the poet remembers some other people who don't matter quite so much. Yet, the first stanzas could also represent a different way to regard the passing of Robert Gregory. Either way, the sixth stanza marks the change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I was also curious who exactly the poem was remembering. Good work, DM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Our Sidney? He is comparing him to the Poet/critic Sir Philip Sidney? I think it would make sense in context.
When I read this poem it seemed to have such a sad note. I wondered when this one was written. Though it was written about the death of one of his friends, the way it goes on, it made me think of a person growing older, while everyone he use to know is now dead.
And towrd the very end he seems to be thinking of his own death which he feels is near at hand, though he could just be feeling his mortality more having had someone he know die.
The persona, I of the poem, can be identified with the poet himself with lots of biographical references. It is an elegy written on his dear friends sudden death, Robert Gregory as Dark Muse Mentioned in January 1918 and it is written at the same time. It is interesting that Coole Park belongs to Lady Gregory which is the setting for the previous poem we discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
This "we" is Yeats and his wife who recently moved into a new house in "Thoor Ballylee, an old Norman tower not far from the Gregory estate". It has a melancholic and elegiac tone remembering all those friends of Yeats who are not alive now.
About the time, there is an emphasis on the present time (Now, Tonight) in comparison to all the friends lived in the past and even the ancient tower. It seems to me all belong to the past except the poet himself. (I have not refer to the next stanzas, up to now maybe I change the attitude)
The pattern is aabbcddc (it is interesting that I searched this pattern in Google and most of the results belong to Yeats' poems, does anyone know if there is any significance in this rhyming pattern?)
I tried to find the meter in the first stanza but I got confused and got nowhere. It is interesting that up to line five there are only a few words with more than one syllables and mostly not stressed. Choosing simple words in this form does signify the elegiac and melancholic tone of the poem? Moreover, when he wants to refer to those dead friends, suddenly the words have more than two syllables like "discoverers, forgotten, companion."
Can anyone help in finding the exact meter of this stanza?
I believe it is a variant on iambic pentametre with the second and third last line in tetramter to add emphasis.
Hmm, since no body is posting anymore... does someone want to take another poem from the bunch?
To JBI and all, sorry to be so absent of late; I do have a comment on the second poem. This evening. q1
Not yet, please wait.
I'm ready for the next poem. Sorry I couldn't post over the weekend. I was away and wasn't able to get to a computer.
I changed my mind, as quasimodo1 post the comment i prefer to start the third poem.
"I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death." For some days now, pondering these first three poems, no comment seemed really relevant. Probably just because these poems are just so accessable and uncomplicated. Let me take exception to Quark's comment as quoted above and insist Yeats still had the ability to create more complex forms but I don't think he wanted that in this writing. The forseen death seems to have taken on almost a serene quality, i.e. complete and non-stressed acceptance. These poems are much more enjoyable than I remembered from the first reading (back in the day).
When will we go to the next poem?
Anytime you want, Sofia.
But what about the rest! JBI should post the new poem or ...?Quote:
Originally Posted by quasimodo1
Sorry, JBI will decide about moving on.
W.B. Yeats (1865–1939). The Wild Swans at Coole. 1919.
4. Men improve with the Years
I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams;
And all day long I look
Upon this lady’s beauty
As though I had found in book
A pictured beauty,
Pleased to have filled the eyes
Or the discerning ears,
Delighted to be but wise,
For men improve with the years;
And yet and yet
Is this my dream, or the truth?
O would that we had met
When I had my burning youth;
But I grow old among dreams,
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams.
I am starting to notice a theme here.
I love the language and imagery of this poem.
I loved these first lines, they really set the tone of the poem.Quote:
I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton
I loved these wordsQuote:
Upon this lady’s beauty
As though I had found in book
A pictured beauty,
Considering the above imagry used, I found this reference to be a bit curriousQuote:
Or the discerning ears,
I really like the way the last lines were slightly altered for the ending, but I was currious about the refernce to the "streams" and the meaning of that image.Quote:
But I grow old among dreams,
A weather-worn, marble triton
You forgot the third one, An Irish Airman foresees his Death ?Quote:
Originally Posted by quasimodo1
A beautiful one! At least not wandering in the world of the dead but in the world of dreams. It is interesting that being worn out with dreams, he dreams about the beauties which is represented by the beauty of the lady, and in the middle of dreaming makes himself return to the world of reality not knowing if he was dreaming or not indeed. I love this one. And a few questions,
I wonder if this marble triton refers to the mythological Greek god, the son of Poseidon, or just a kind of sea shell? If it refers to the son of Poseidon, is there any significant relationship between this triton and the lady?Quote:
I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams;
Does this lady represent his poetical genius in his old age, and when he says
does he want to state that this poetic genius is now in its height or not? Or just it is a dream?Quote:
O would that we had met
When I had my burning youth;
The Rhyme scheme is aba cdcd efef ghgh aba, What does this repetition of the first three lines signify, returning and remaining to/with the same dreams? And this scheme represents different phases in his thoughts?
I beleive it was meant to be the Tritins of the Greeks, I saw it as they are the ones older than the gods whom have now fallen back into obsoleation. They lost thier place to make room for the "new" ones, being the Gods.Quote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
That is an interesting thought, the way he talks about her being upon a page. Perhaps she is his museQuote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
I would say, that he is trying to suggest that the youth was his hieght.Quote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
Yes, poem #3 was missed, and a very popular poem it is too. But lets talk about this one first, I guess, since it's already quite underway, and there is no need to digress now.
This poem seems to me at first a play on Marlowe's Shepard to his Live, and other such pastoral style poems written in English, and the Greek tradition. He is lamenting, it would seem, his inability to go on consummating his relationship with the "nymph", in this case referring to young women, because he has grown old by the stream, and therefore cannot partake any more.
The poem is loaded with allusions to old age, regret, and rings similar to Frost's Road not Taken, in the sense that it ponders, and laments, the linear flow of time, and talks about the regrets of aging, of knowing you had wasted time in your youth, and not being able to change anything.
The poem itself seems rather simple, and flawed by language in many areas (the language has not reached the perfection Yeats achieved in other poems, and relies on simplistic imagery and repetitive words and lines), but still has something, that great line of irony:
"Delighted to be but wise,
For men improve with the years;
And yet and yet
Is this my dream, or the truth? "
Yeats is asking if such knowledge and experience is said to increase man, are we but lying to ourselves. He is unable to do what he likes best, that is, attract and have a relationship with a nymph, and he realizes that everything else, the experience, the knowledge of the world, the successes and failures in his life, mean nothing, because though he understands, he cannot experience, and therefore is living through what cannot or had not been done, instead of what he wishes could be done.
That's a good parallel, JBI, but I think the theme may be more general here. The woman appears to the poet as more than just a romantic interest. She's the embodiment of the speaker's idea of beauty, and the poet is noticing--with mixed feelings--that he isn't as swayed by her as he used to be. Marlowe's pastoral is good place to start, but the poem goes beyond it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Right, but just as in "The Wild Swans at Coole" the lament is softened by some positive feeling of wisdom. The line "For men improve with the years" gives him something to hold on to.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
The language is simple, but I think the pace of the poem is very well-done. It speeds up when he contemplates woman--as though his heart is racing. Then, it slows and breaks into a regular cadence when he talks about his wisdom. I don't think those four lines are irony, though. They seem more like ambiguity. The question at the end goes unanswered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I interpreted the "for men improve with years" to be sarcastic, ironic.
I agree with Quark. It is a good parallel, but more than that one. Although both can be correct. It is a kind of lamentation or elegy but it depends on what you consider this lady in beauty. If she is the embodiment of romantic interest as the love, yes it is parallel to Marlowe's poetry and she is the nymph. But if she is the emblem of idea of beauty (Quark said) and I call it artistic beauty (as Dark Muse said the Muse), it is more than a pastoral poetry with romantic interest.Quote:
That's a good parallel, JBI, but I think the theme may be more general here. The woman appears to the poet as more than just a romantic interest. She's the embodiment of the speaker's idea of beauty, and the poet is noticing--with mixed feelings--that he isn't as swayed by her as he used to be. Marlowe's pastoral is good place to start, but the poem goes beyond it.
I think "filled the eyes and discerning ears" represent the art in different forms (for Yeats maybe poetry) besides the beauty of the lady. And this "discerning ears" may represent the songs/poems by the Muses. So, in addition to the beauty in appearance there is the beauty in sounds (spoken/musical).Quote:
Pleased to have filled the eyes
Or the discerning ears,
JBI said it is ironic and sarcastic, and you said it gives him something to hold on to. A question, does Yeats put the idea of poetic genius and experience against each other? (Experience vs. genius)?Quote:
Right, but just as in "The Wild Swans at Coole" the lament is softened by some positive feeling of wisdom. The line "For men improve with the years" gives him something to hold on to.
I like the idea of the pace of the poem.Quote:
The language is simple, but I think the pace of the poem is very well-done. It speeds up when he contemplates woman--as though his heart is racing. Then, it slows and breaks into a regular cadence when he talks about his wisdom. I don't think those four lines are irony, though. They seem more like ambiguity. The question at the end goes unanswered.
Yeats very subtly, even sub-consciously brings celtic
sybols and druidic concepts to these poems, giving
them another dimension and fatalistic ambiance.
This comes off with the lightest of touch, in my
view. In "An Irish Airman Forsees His Death" the
concept of fate, the cross (celtic cross, melding the
Christian cross with a circle), the "lonely impulse of
delight" which here is to die at an apex of life. Also
the use of balance, also a pagan concept with much
wider parameters than today's usage. In "The
Collar-bone of a Hare", the title refers to a symbol
from celtic/pagan usage where a druid would look
through the circular hole in said bone to see the
past or similar type divination. Playing the pipes is
an obvious reference and piercing with a gimlet has
the extended meaning as a corkscrew would twist
and pierce simultaneously. Laughing over quiet
(untroubled) waters is equally druidic. These
concepts add to these poems in an almost
diaphanous way, but with heavy effect.
Anyone care to bring this relaxed thread back to life.
I wonder, too. What about next poem?!
I do hope the discussion continues. I'd like to stop in and make a post every once in a while, but I'm too busy elsewhere on LitNet to contribute frequently.
Where are we in The Wild Swans at Coole, anyway?
An Irish Airman foresees his Death
I KNOW that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross, 5
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds, 10
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind 15
In balance with this life, this death.
... anyone still interested in this?
Oh I did not know a new poem was posted. For some reason I did not get the e-mail thingy to notify me of new replies untill just now
OK, here's the question, what is this "lonely impulse of delight" that drove him to the skies, and his inevitable death?
This poem seems to be a bit more pessimistic than the ones we have previous read, though following much the same themes as the previous poems. Though I am not sure if this one is so much about the idea of growing in years, but rather it seems like a complete resignation to death.
He does not express any love, nor care for anything. He does not care about his fellow man or his country, nor honor and glory, but rather he seems to be completely apathetic and the only reason he has gone to fight, is perhaps to quicken is death.Quote:
Those that I fight I do not hate
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross, 5
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds, 10
A lonely impulse of delight
These lines seem to suggest that life in itself is a waste because he knows he is going to die, so there really is no point to living at all.Quote:
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
It could, though he states that he he was not made to fight, but choose to do so of his own accord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
After reading this poem over a few times, and considering some of the past poems we have looked at, I do not think that this poem was meant to be partrotic or political in anyway. But it seems to be about a man whom has simply given up and accepted that death is inescapable so he might as well just give himself over to it.