He was not at university when this happened. It is in Chapter 1;it is when he was first sent to the boarding school.
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He was not at university when this happened. It is in Chapter 1;it is when he was first sent to the boarding school.
Check out the part where Stephen is interacting with the boys on the playground. Right after one of the kids asks Stephen about his name, he said something rude to Stephen.
Stephen then said to himself: "That was not a nice expression. His mother had told him not to speak with the rough boys in the college."
The college mentioned, Clongowes Wood College, is a boarding school, which was also attended by Joyce himself when he was young.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jjoyce.htm
It was not a Collge/University in today's sense. And the sentence you mention points out how young he was at the time as it is hard to imagine someone who attends university to think like that: "His mother had told him not to speak with the rough boys.."
Speaking of the girl from the party that he rode the tram with, why wasn't her name given? Is it given later (I'm halfway through chap. 2, i think)?
It is Emma Clery (E- C-) It is mentioned later on.
I have just finished reading Chapter 3 and oh my! :eek2: That was one of the most dreadful piece of reading I have had to do I think... The references to religion was gloomy with constant mention of sin, punishment and hell... I feel like I have been there and back after finishing that chapter...
Papaya> I have read the part where he gets angry again and I think you are right that he is angry that the girl is not there. Thank you very much :)
speaking of Chapter 3, in the beginning when the rector is talking about the retreat, it has a line about Stphens heart withering: A little wave of quiet mirth broke forth over the classof boys from the rector's grim smile. Stephen's heart began slowely to fold and fade with fear like a withering flower. A few lines down it mentions his heart fading like a flower again. What's that all about?
im stilll in chapter one but whats smugging?
Thank you for continuing the discussion guys. I haven't read further. Bit tired these days. I'll catch up this weekend and perhaps I might get some new insights :)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=smuggingQuote:
Originally Posted by Jester
um.... thanks scher but that doesn't explain why the kids are either getting expelled or whipped for it...
The boys who were caught 'smugging' were experimenting with homosexuality which was not accpetable at the time... which led to their expulsion.
ahhh okay, that makes more sense, thanks
I am finally reading the final chapter (YAY!) and come across some other references to 'flower/s'... in similar contexts... I am going out on a limb here but would like to suggest that the flower reference signifies how Joyce sees the children or young minds maybe. They are fresh and beautiful but under the constant scrutiny of religion and moral code, they cannot help but 'wither'...Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Or maybe it isn't young minds only but that of an artist specifically... A creative mind needs to be free and away from restrictions to develop and prosper.
Someone, please, tell me that I am not babbling and I actually make sense! :D
I finished chapter 3..phew....but end up in a blur understanding.. Guess I have to re-read again. But somehow I get the message of this spiritual fight between paying a true respect to God or being a genuine hypocrit
Agree with you. I also felt it was about his religious identity and the place of religion in his life.
Did you also feel that the book has an interesting structure? It starts with childish babble, light and breezy and gets darker and darker... Like descending into a hole... chapter 3 is the worst, darkest part... and then the mood starts to change again, getting lighter, becoming less 'inflicting-suicidal-tendencies-upon-the-reader' kind... and this goes on till the end, as if climbing up, out of the hole again...
I am glad you are also reading it, Sub. It seems like there are only 4-5 people who are.
Yeah, i'm trying to finish it Scher...
True that chapter 3 is so dark...Gosh this lad is just 16 yo..I don't know that a young boy could have such a heavy moments dealing with sins and all...but maybe if you study in Cath school..
Also, he is different from the other boys around him... which might be implying his artistic tendencies and sensitivities
Yes, I noticed that Joyce didn't mentioned any of the lad's schoo mates who experienced the same anxiety. It seems that it's just he's alone who has that kind of point of view about sins and punishments
And maybe the only one who 'sinned' that way too?
I think I disagree with this, I don't believe he was the only one with that point of view on sinning and religion. I believe that it just wasn't talked about amongst your peers. That happens all the time with teenagers (at least from what I remember) you think your the only one with a problems but then years later you find out everbody had the same problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by subterranean
I agree with the tone of the book, light and airy when he was young, then dark when he was a teen listening to his teachers and priests, and finally I believe he's starting to think for himself and realizes that the preists might not always be right and it becomes lighter again.
That's the thing Papay, at first I also thought like that. But then I figured, why Joyce didn't even mentioned at all that such thing wasn't something that you talked about among peers. I mean Joyce didn't even mentioned that Stephen had a little hope that he wished he could share his religious burden.
sorry guys, haven't felt like reading the book in a while so im still on chapter one :blush:
Oh...shame on you Jester :D :D :smash:
Whooo Hooo!!!! I finished this infernal book last night!!! Sheesh what a read.
So jealous!! I still have another 20 pages to go :rolleyes:
I'm not understanding the point of the last couple of pages where he's arguing with his friends? Not to mention the part were it's like he's writing in a journal?
His artistic discussions with his friends?? I was thinking about that as well... And wondered they are simply there to show that he has moved on... He is not worried about religion anymore and he is concentrating more on aesthetic side of life.
That could be, but did it have to be sooo long?
Sorry guys, I too, have dropped the ball on this one. I am stuck in a little religious rut with Chapter 3. And there are other things that are grabbing my attention...
hey.... i got three weeks of absolutly nothing to do if i dont get a job over christmas which leaves reading... lots and lots of reading... ill get this one done by the end of the month, i hope
So Papay, what's the main point of the entire book?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I dunno, my best guess is that it's a "coming of age" book.
Just finished the book (literally, 5 minutes ago) and some questions floating in my mind:
1. He is doesn't mind learning and speaking in Latin in his daily life but refuses speak/learn Irish?
2. Why all the references to the birds in the last pages?
3. Is he an Othello on the make with all his suspicions?
4. The diary signifies that he is finally 'in peace' and honest and open with himself?
5. You can take the man out of religion but you cannot take the religion out of man?(re.his reference to the girl as a pure one - will find the passage for this one)
I have not thought about these questions myself yet... Maybe they are very obvious but just wanted to post them as an immediate reaction when I finished the book, wondering what you all think...
I think Latin was part of the school curriculum, he didn't have a choice. As for refusing to speak Irish I would guess that he didn't want to be associated with any group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Although I agree with you that he didn't have a choice other than learning Latin at school, in later chapters, he seems to be using it in his daily life while at university. It feels as if he is almost happy to do so (intellctual snobbery?).
Here is the text from the book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
"And if he had judged her harshly? If her life were a simple rosary of hours, her life simple and strange as a bird's life, gay in the morning, restless all day, tired at sundown? Her heart simple and wilful as a bird's heart?"
Although he seems to be distancing himself from religion, he is still trying to see the girl as pure as possible... So maybe he is not as free of religious teachings as he would like to believe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Perhaps Scher, I mean schollar used to do this perhaps. Like the story of Jude the Obscure.
And for your 5th Q, well we should know first how's religion defined in the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Probably, during his formative years most of his upbringing and schooling were religious based, his whole thought process has to be affected by it in some way or another.
I agree with you there Papay, IMO it's a little hard for someone who was brought up in a strict religious tradition, to really "untie" him/her self from religious bonds.