March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce

I just read the first two chapters of James Joyce and the Common Reader by William Powell Jones.

Basically Jones is interested in the linguistic/stylistic shifts between Joyces' various projects. To put it another way, he is very interested in how Joyce evolves as a writer, going from the realist Dubliners to the experimental Finnegan's Wake.

In his chapter on Dubliners he makes the following important points:

1) Jones believes that Joyce wrote Dublin as a microcosm of the universal experience. (basically what Hellsapoppin states). The specific scenes of Dubliners represents the universal experience, even as Joyce also seems very interested in capturing his youth and the specifics/particulars of Irish life back then as accurately as possible

2) Jones insists that the order of the stories in Dubliners is extremely important; they are organized loosely by broad themes/content. The first three stories for example ("The Sisters," "An Encounter," and "Araby") are about childhood and having an experience that forces you to grow up or realize just how much of a child you truly are depending on how you want to read it (since I think you can read the narrator of these stories in either way). They go through different stages of life from being a child to adult maturity as Hellsapoppin points out.

3) The order of the tales reveal that many of the stories are thematic counterparts to each other, which is why the ordering matters. For example, "Two Gallants" has a playboy take advantage of a servent girl to get her to steal something financially from her employer, while "The Boarding House" has a mother and daughter who basically setup a man to take advantage of him economically. They are parallels and opposites of each other. "Eveline" and "After the Race" are paired, one is about a girl who almost goes off to Buenos Aires with her lover, only to hide behind her responsibility, the other is about a boy who goes off on adventure with rich Continentals only to spend his father's money irresponsibly.

4) Jones notes that most of Joyce's stories in Dubliners are slice-of-life tales that center around the character's epiphany. He compares that to religious epiphany in the New Testament, but never really discusses it beyond that. The purpose of bringing it up is more for analogy.

5) Jones also sides with those who see these stories as centrally about paralysis with the exception of The Dead, which he sees a warm portrait of Mature Love.

6) Jones talks a lot about how Joyce thought of Dubliners as a history of Irish "moral life", but again never specifically ties this to Catholicism.

Jones is virtually silent in the first two chapters of his book about Joyces' Catholocism. The idea for "epiphany" that is so important to Joyces' structure with each tale might have originated in religious texts, but it is divorced from any real religious connotations. I suppose you could read Jones's comments on "The Dead" as a kind of symbolic ressurection from all the sins and decay of the other stories (You quote Jones as saying, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... '')

I'm assuming most of the Catholic reading comes from Gifford, however. I'm sure there is plenty of scholarship addressing how Joyces's Catholicism influenced his work. However, just because a theme is universal doesn't make it automatically a Catholic theme; all or most writers write universal themes to a certain degree. Simply because the etymology of Catholic once meant "Universal" is confusing etymology with current definition (which refers to a specific religion with specific practices). Also, saying that Joyce was interested in certain themes because of his Catholicism (probably true enough and a point I can agree with) is not the same as saying he was specifically attempting to write Catholic themes.

I also hope I am not coming off as being anti-Catholic, especially as a non-Catholic (we unfortunately live in a world where people can be insensitive to Christians). So I want to explain why I am pushing this a little more. I guess what is bothering me still is I want MORE out of the Catholic reading. I want to understand better how you [Hellsapoppin] see the Catholic motifs and symbolism adding up to and signifying a particular/specific meaning. It's all fine and dandy to point out that this story is doing this and that with the trinity, but it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.

Not to mention it seems to me that at times Joyce is extremely critical of both the church and his fellow Catholics as well as Protestants (and perhaps Jews too).

*** Main Implications/Lessons from Jones: I wish I had read Dubliners in the correct order seeing how important the stories ordering happens to be!!!

Drkshadow, I found that completely helpful and puts the ideas into perspective. I too, wish I had read the stories in the correct order. I don't believe I did when I read them a few years back, but then my memory fails me on that fact. I will remember to read them this way on my second reading.
DS, you layed out all of that very well, like an outline and I like your mention of the "epiphany" idea in Joyce's stories - vitally important fact to discuss.

DrkShadow,

Great to see that you looked up Jones which does back up some of what I wrote previously. Gifford is recommended as well for further development of the issues I raised.

I own about 10 books on Joyce (and probably gave away about another 10 several years ago). It is amazing how the writers (including Kenner, Ellman, and Burgess) have different interpretations of the stories and their symbolism.

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

hellsapoppin, could you please use quotes, if you are quoting another person who has posted a comment? I sometimes cannot differenciate between what you say, or what others said, and the comments you make responding to them.
To enclose a body of type in quotes, you just use [quote] at the beginning. At the end you use the same but with a slash / before the word quote. It would be emensely helpful if you could do this. I find your posts confusing to read. To begin with, if you want to quote someone who posted, you can just click on Quote, at the bottom of their post and you will see the formating already set up for you in the window that will appear. Again, this would be so helpful to others trying to read your posts.

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.

I guess Dubliners requires a re-reading.

Can someone explain the significance of The Dead?

I personally found a lot of it was un-needed, and could have been cut into maybe two to three different stories.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

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Ah, a true philosophical question. It's always interesting when the person raising the question isn't sure.

I'll put the question a different way: Can Joyce be a Catholic drawing on Catholic symbolism, but also be critical of the institutions and people's interpretations of Catholicism?

That's how I would read the questions you raise, particularly in light of the Trinity symbols you mentioned. They are almost always incomplete trinities. It seems to me someone caught up in their Catholicism might be very critical of priests and fellow Catholics who fall short of their standards, but for the purpose of getting at a purer religion perhaps.

This is tricky because I don't know enough about Joyces' biography and particular beliefs. Yet I would definitely say he depicts many of his priests in less than flattering light.

The obvious example you mentioned from "The Sisters," but also in stories like "Ivy Day in the Committee Room" where the priest himself is depicted as more concerned with business and money than traditional priestly duties (see my earlier post about that story to think about how this fits in with the larger theme). Seriously, he can't sit with his flock for a few minutes before rushing off? "Grace" itself is meant as comical and ironic filled with misinformation about the church doctrine and history. Not to mention the end has a shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting.

Many of the stories, the more religious ones (the ones mentioned above) and the artistic ones ("Little Clouds" and "A Mother"), all seem to point to Joyce stating that art, religion, political participation has transformed into a business transaction, and that this is an extremely bad development in these three centers of human existence (the aesthetic, the spiritual, the political).

If you don't have art, politics, or religion/sprituality to be passionate about, then what do you have?

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.

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Suit yourself but it makes your posts difficult to read when you only use quotation marks to indicate the person you are quoting. That is why we have a quoting format here - it makes the passages stand out and one can see the comments by the current poster separately. I for one find your posts take longer to comprehend.

I would have to fully agree with darkshadow on his last post about the religious corruption or shady business aspects that are revealed, in the Joyce's short stories, in relation to the church. There is not only political corruption going on in his stories, but also church corruption.

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

Drkshadow - I like the way you phrased it when you said ''philosophical question'' in your excellent post. There are no right or wrong answers in interpreting what the author was driving at. Indeed, the freedom and flexibility to interpret along with our varying views is what makes it art.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

Drkshadow - I like the way you phrased it when you said ''philosophical question'' in your excellent post. There are no right or wrong answers in interpreting what the author was driving at. Indeed, the freedom and flexibility to interpret along with our varying views is what makes it art.

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I agree with that. Indeed all individuals will interpret the stories to suit themselves and that is 'art.' The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself. I don't think that is going to happen so we have to come up with our own conclusions or take from the stories our own deeper meanings. For one, personal experience always plays a role, in how we see a story. We are all tainted with our own prejudices/likes and dislike, and so we bring those into play as we read and discuss a story or novel. I, for one, think this is what makes us read and connect with certain stories and authors, and reject others. We can't completely depend on a commentary or critic to tell us the author's intentions or correct interpretations; we can only use those as tools, to further stimulate our own unique minds, and help us to think in various directions and present us with various new ideas on the texts; that is why we are here to exchange those ideas in open discussion groups. I often quote commentators myself, but I try and also discuss, what they are saying or ask for feedback from other posters, to see if their ideas are feasible. It is good to draw on a deep well of information that is available to us, about any author or any writing. But, like histories that are written by men, we can only take those ideas and consider them as accurate or reject them as not. In the end, it has to be left to individual choice, as to what we take away from the story/novel/book. This is what makes discussion so vital and such a fine learning experience.

Janine,

Another excellent comment! That's what makes this forum so special.

:)

hellsapoppin, thank you so much for your kind compliment.

Good news just came to me. My library's online audiobook download has a copy available of "Dubliners" audiobook. I am thrilled. I can review the book by listening to a narration. At least I can check the book out for 14 days time, but no copies are alowed on this book. There are others they do alow copying to MP3 players or CD's. Well, one cannot have everything, right? I am quite fortunate and I am sure the narrator will lend a certain new perspective to the stories.

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Originally Posted by Janine

The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself.

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Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy, The Death of the Author, and deconstructionism have attempted to show. :bawling:

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy, The Death of the Author, and deconstructionism have attempted to show. :bawling:

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Perhaps but I think, unfortunately, that the presense of the author would be the only way we would all truly know his intentions. We can merely surmise what they are, but that is half the fun of discussing, isn't it? So cheer up and don't cry Drkshadow. Maybe we will all meet somewhere in an 'alternate universe' after death. It could be a fun party, with noteworthy individuals. Have you visited the "bring them back from the dead" thread? It is emensely entertaining. :)

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Originally Posted by Janine

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

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Yeah, I see what your saying. I think my problem is this. I read Dubliners and when I read it in the back of my mind was where I had read a few articles about its hazardous publishing history. Joyce was rejected by nearly all the publishing houses in 1907 on grounds that Dubliners' stories were seen as too raunchy for the public. So I read The Dead and my mind kept searching for all these so-called 'naughty' bits. I couldn't find any all throughout Dubliners.

However, in The Dead, whenever it would say something like 'Gabriel went to entertain the two young ladies in the next room', I would automatically think 'Oooh, they're makin' love!'. It was quite a funny experience. Especially when things like 'He could hear the floorboards creak on the floor above while in the pantry'.

But I couldn't find anything remotely raunchy in The Dead or Dubliners, bar my own imagined goings-on. The only thing I found was in a reference note that stated that the title 'Eveline' Joyce might have used as a joke to make fun of the publishing press, as 'Eveline' is meant to be a word for prostitute or something...

So yeah, I kind of skimmed over all the symbolism in my search for Joyce's sexual allusions. Of which there were none, so I failed in my search on that account. :p

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it! :D

PS. I myself did not get the feeling the old man was masturbating in An Encounter. Maybe I missed that too! :lol:

ben.! well we now know where your mind is. :lol: Maybe you should read some D.H. Lawrence instead; "Lady Chatterly's Lover" might be to your liking. It was banned, as well; but I can guarentee it is a lot more sexual than "Dubliners"; for that matter so is "Sons and Lovers" and many of his other early novels.

Now in 'The Encounter' the only thing I could detect was that the guy was a pedifile(sp?) - child molestor, and the boys were probaby in some danger, but unharmed, since they retreated quickly. I can imagine in Joyce's day, how that story would go over...not well! Society was stuffy about these things.

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it!



a few symbols come to mind:

"totties" in 'An Encounter'

"The Madam" in 'The Boarding House'

"cocottes" and "the secrets of religious houses on the Continent" in 'A Little Cloud'

All symbolize sexual misconduct.

A wonderful St Patrick's Day one + all!



http://www.alighthouse.com/lepclovertop.jpg

I'm going to Dublin tomorrow! I'll take my book along with me but I don't think I'll have time for much reading or observing how Joyce's portrait of Dublin relates to the modern day city, what with all the Guinness!

Many have pointed out that Joyces’ work is extremely political. At times he criticizes class conditions (like in “After the Race” when he writes “ . . . sightseers had gathered in clumps to watch the cars careering homeward and through this channel of poverty and inaction the Continent sped its wealth and industry. Now and again the clumps of people raised the cheer of the gratefully oppressed”), he criticizes the limitations imposed upon women through gender, and through these critiques makes a case for Irish nationalism (though, he criticizes the state of Irish politics concretely as well). It would be a mistake to suggest that is only what is going on within these stories; it amazes one how the themes also transcend political commentary. I think by pondering these issues, however, we can consider the more interesting issue as to why a Catholic born writer from Ireland has so many references to the Jews in his work. His work does not entirely escape anti-Semitic stereotypes often depicting Jews as rich and greedy (among other undesirable qualities), but I think he may be getting at a more intimate political connection; the Jews and Irish are symbolically linked through the desire of a Jewish state circulating at the time and the desire for Irish home rule. The Jews figure as a symbolic presence in the texts that always reminds the readers of the Irish’s own plight of oppression and lack of self-rule. It also hammers home how international in scale many of his seemingly local themes happen to be.

“An Encounter” has to be one of my favorite stories in the collection. This story about two boys playing hooky from school perfectly captures the voice of a pervert pedophile who the boys encounter said to be based off a real life experience Joyce had at their age. The language is so subtle, yet powerful when the old man speaks of wanting to give the boys a whipping, a “nice warm whipping” at that (who would possibly think to put those adjectives together?). Earlier the boys watch the man masturbate out in the woods, which is never directly described, but through the boys’ reactions you somehow know what he is doing. It leaves one amazed at Joyce’s writing ability to capture this sort of perverted freak without any coarse bluntness that I could picture a lot of modern writers resorting to, including myself.

“Araby” is the story I never gave a chance and found myself loving this time around for its beautiful language. This story about youthful love and coming-of-age to realize the illusions of that love hits home on a theme I find particularly appealing in my fiction (Philip Roth’s “Goodbye, Columbus” one of my favorite books plays on similar themes). This is perhaps the most poetic of Joyce’s stories.

“After the Race” presents us with a young man racing with his richer French “buddies,” hoping to make his future by including some of his father’s hard-earned money into a business project only to lose that money by gambling with them. The irony of the story is that the only reason they were his friends was because of his money that he was going to invest in their business, now he no longer has money to invest in the business and he has defeated himself through his own irresponsibility.

“The Boardinghouse” is perhaps the one story in the collection that I would not describe as leading to paralysis as the female characters manage to move up in the social ladder. It’s a strange anomaly in the collection.

“A Little Cloud” is a story about a failed artist who meets with his journalist friend who has made it on the continent. He tries to imagine the art he would be capable of writing, which leads him to think about how his wife’s feelings have changed for him after the birth of their baby. At some point he comes to realize his whole life is lie, that his wife’s feelings for him have been transferred to the baby, but there are subtle hints I think that his wife never really cared all that deeply for him.

“Counterparts” is a nasty little story about a drunk whose alcoholism leads him to tell off his boss at work probably to jeapordize his job. He goes off to the bars with his friends, bragging about his daring at the office. Only as the night progresses he gets slighted by a passing girl in one of the pubs and at his friend’s hands in an arm-wrestling match. He comes home to take out his humiliation and frustration on his son. This is the most self-destructive of Joyce’s stories I think.

“Clay” is a story about spinster who attends a holiday part with the family of one of the boys she helped raised. This story plays on the narration. It is filled with ironic gestures of people making fun of her old age like when a store clerk asks if she will be purchasing a wedding cake (poking fun at her age and the likelihood that she will never get married) or when an old man on the bus basically hits on her and she thinks of him as a colonel, except he is most likely just riffraff from the street (she blinds herself to the truth because she wants to think of herself as young and beautiful still). These satirical moments lead to a more serious moment when she plays a holiday game and grabs a piece of clay symbolizing death (her likely future). The family redo her turn after a stunned silence, saying a mistake was made, and she instead gets a bible symbolizing she will soon enter a convent as a nun.

“A Painful Case” is about a lonely man who lives his life in isolation only to engage in a platonic liaison with an equally lonely married woman, but when the woman wants to transform their relationship into a romance it disintegrates, eventually leading to the woman committing suicide. Joyce again plays with the narrator’s viewpoint. The woman kills herself many years after the relationship ends, suggesting there were other events in her life during the intervening time that might have led to her suicide. The narrator ends up blaming himself, which only further underscores his own loneliness, but also reveals his intense narcissim. There is fruter subtext that suggests the narrator may be homosexual, hence why he rejects the woman (because he doesn't have interest in her sexually) and leads a lonely life (because the historical period and Catholic/Protestant climate of Ireland didn't allow for him to engage in his desires). The story also notes that an aesthetic life devoid of people misses the entire point of art, which is about human connections and self-reflection for the eventual purpose of human connection.


“A Mother” is about a typical stage mom, an all too familiar figure as my own life has seen me involved with quite a few theater companies when I was younger. A story about a woman living the life she always wanted through her daughter. A story about the art spoiled by crass consumerism.

“Grace” is a story that begins with a symbolic fall from drunkenness. It is a spoof on religion meant as comical and ironic filled with the characters spouting misinformation about church doctrine and history. It ends with shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting, entirely confusing actual church doctrine (quoth the Jew).

Excellent post, Drkshadow! Good synopsis on each story pointing out some key points. Very illuminating. It is good to see someone take the time to outline each story and comment so thoroughly.
I think the two stories I like best are 'Araby', because, as you put it so accurately, it is so very poetic and I love 'The Dead' because I know that story does directly involve feelings that Joyce himself, had biographically. I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had. This lent the story a certain allure for me, however the story is superb and stands by itself, as being like nothing else I had read before. The ending line, and images it evokes, is just so unique.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had.

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I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

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Drkshadow, Well, I only know what I read online and then from the film I saw called "Nora", which is based on a biography, written by Brenda Maddox. I read her biography on D.H.Lawrence, basically dealing with his difficult-at-times and complex marriage. I found that very informative and since I had read another L bio, it seemed pretty accurate, but then who knows? I only know that Joyce exiled himself and Nora, not long after they meet and fell in love; so to speak they eloped secretly, and she became his common law wife. They moved to Trieste, Italy. There he worked at a university teaching, and also concentrated on his writing. They did move about quite a bit, throughout the years and they had two children - Georgio and Lucia. He was a good father and loved his kids, but he drank heavily. His brother lived with them for a time, but that did not work out well. His brother wrote a book on Joyce called "My Brother's Keeper". I read it - it is interesting. After they had been together for a number of years, Nora told him of the story of her girlhood and how she had been very close to this young man in the area she lived in Ireland, Galway. Her father found out and forbad her to see him and her parents arranged that she go away to a convent for study. One night the boy came to her house and threw stones at her upstairs window and he stood in the rain. He apparently was torn up about the separatation, loved her very intensely, and he was ill at the time. Later she learned he had gone home, then become bedridden with illness/fever and died shortly after. Naturally, she felt responsible and that it had been for the love of her. She ran away from her family and the convent and went to be a maid in Dublin. Shortly after she and Joyce meet on the street, looking in shop windows (something like that) and they began to see each other romantically and fell in-love.
The memory that she harboured all those years, really tore her appart. Joyce seemed understanding at first, but then he asked why she had not told him earlier. It seemed she just could not and then he became jealous when his friends, back in Dublin, told him a lie - that Nora had been intimate with them, as well as with Joyce, that she was a loose girl. That was all Joyce needed to stay away and feed his jealous rage. It was a very bad time of turmoil, but the two finally wrote very erotic letters to each other. According to the film, when Nora told him she was going to have the girl child christened he came back to her. They had quite a relationship of ups and downs and power plays. A big part of it was Joyce's drinking and I think basically, he was an alcholic for a time. Nora put up with a lot. Living with a genius is not easy. Also, he sometimes treated her as though she were inferior in intelligence, or so she felt he did. Eventually, other things happened to drive a wedge in their relationship (complicated); those were the final straws and consequently Nora packed up the kids and went back to Galway and to her parent's house. The parents assumed the two were married, but actually it was never a legal marriage; until much later when indeed they did rejoin, Joyce coming to fetch his wife. They makeup and did legally marry a number of years down the road. Well, that is a quick rendition of their married life. Financially, they lived 'hand to mouth'; sometimes they lived 'high off the hog', so to speak, and sometimes moved around struggling with Joyce trying to get his work published; Nora also saw publishers. Not an easy life back then, and often a huge strain on their relationship. I concluded that they did truly love each other, but the relationship was a very complex/enigmatic one, not easy to explain.
Of course, it would benefit you to explore more of his biography. There are good short ones on Wikipedia and also on this site.

Thanks! That was very informative.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Thanks! That was very informative.

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Glad that helped you, Drkshadow. It was just my own rendition, in my words, of my impressions of what I had read. I kept rambling on.;) If you get a chance, see the film, "Nora"; it is quite interesting and very fine acting. Joyce is played by Ewan McGregor and Nora by Susan Lynch. My video store rented it, but then when they sold some, I bought a used copy. I have watched it several times now. Beware, it is rated R, I believe, and has some pretty lusty (hot) scenes.:brow: No, that is not why I bought the film. :lol:
The book, by his brother, also was quite interesting, although he never mentions the marital relationship. My library actually had that book available. I was so shocked. My library usually gets rid of the truly great books. I think they only own two Joyce books, maybe even just one.
I should probably read another biography on Joyce someday. I like prying ;) into the private lives of these authors. I am sort of drawn to reading true stories and biographies.

"The Dead" was beautiful and does everything fiction is supposed to do. I felt that deep pang of emotion in my chest while reading some of these lines, and the ending is just absolutely stunning in both its emotional impact and the sheer beauty of its prose. In fact, the last half of this novella is gut-wrenchingly powerful.

I strongly disagree with William Powell Jones's assertion that this last story celebrates mature love and provides a sense of hope for the characters alleviating the tension of the all previous stories. This story about Gabriel Conroy and his wife attending a Christmas party at his aunts shows just how pathetic the "mature love" between Gabriel Conroy and his wife, Gretta, happens to be. His own remarks towards the end reveal the long decline in his relationship over the year into a state of emotionless paralysis, which is what makes this sudden burst of emotion for him so exciting.

While he is busy remember all the good times they had in between the dullness, she is busy remembering a long lost lover from her teenage years who died for her out of love sickness. His plans for renewed passion with his wife fizzles out as he learns the truth, and he's left contemplating his paralyzed life, at first envying the dead ex-lover, but soon moving beyond that envying as he stares out the window at the snow covering Ireland where both the living and dead freeze, suggesting both the living and dead are interchangeable.

The entire story is a metaphor for the paralysis of Irish national life. All the sub-themes of the other stories are repeated in what could be called the capstone of the collection, reiterating characters from previous stories, ideas, motifs, and themes. This story isn't a hope from those others, but the final nail in the coffin with what those others were trying to achieve.

Gabriel thinks about the events of the day only to accept how absurd his entire life has been, from the speech he gave, to the narcassistic way he acts around his aunts and people, to the vulgar drunks praising him. All of Miss Ivors accusations about him being a West Briton proved to be true. She as the Irish Nationalist calling him out on his absurd existence is the center of the story that connects the beginning, middle, and end.

At the end, Gabriel finally is able to connect with Ireland, the place he rejected this entire time, only to realize Ireland itself is in trouble and paralyzed. The relationship between Gretta and the dead lover, and Gabriel's subtle turn towards Ireland that moves him closer to Miss Ivor's position is related to each other in that Joyce suggests the past is always more emotionally satisfying than the present. Even more so he connects this to paralysis by the fact that the past is dead, you can't ever go back there. Gretta is literally mourning for a corpse right in front of her husband. Miss Ivors is speaking a dead language (when she leaves the party and drops a Gaelic line) that nobody understands anymore. Joyce, while perhaps admiring Miss Ivors's position as a Irish Nationalist and bemoaning that lost past, also recognizes you cannot base your movement into the future on sentimentalism about the past. In fact, one of the attributes Gabriel criticizes in himself is his own sentimentalism, a very telling moment that shows Miss Ivors's own positions do not escape scrutiny.

So quite literally this story is about death, how the literal death of a person can cause the death of another person's self-image, how the death of the past can cause the death of hope for the future. It's about the death of love, the literal death of a person, the death of Irish history, the death of hope for the future.

Darkshadow, I am truly impressed with your excellent and insightful post. I read every line of it and thought you expressed yourself admirably. I agree with all you said and found new insights into this beautifully written story. I have long loved "The Dead" and think it a masterpiece of short story writing.
Thank you for so thoroughly discussing it and pointing out things, had not previously been aware of, such as Miss Ivor's nationalism and the way in which she interacts with Gabriel.
I don't know what else to say - except to encourage you to post more great posts like this one, because I will definitely be reading them. Maybe you could comment on some of the other stories in the collection.
Very inspiring and very helpful indeed. Keep up the good work! I wondered when someone would post some comments on "Dubliners" and was glad to see it in bold in the listings and once again active.

Thanks, Janine. I try my best. Unfortunately I don't foresee myself participating in next month's Book Club discussion as much as I'd like to. But next month is going to be busy for me I think.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Thanks, Janine. I try my best. Unfortunately I don't foresee myself participating in next month's Book Club discussion as much as I'd like to. But next month is going to be busy for me I think.

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Darkshadow, that is ok, I don't forsee taking part next month either. I want to take a short break. I am in two very active short story threads (asside from this one) so I will basically concentrate on those. One is Chekhov and one is D.H.Lawrence. You might be interested in the future. If so hope, to see you there, with your great commentaries!:thumbs_up :)

Drkshadow,

You should be working for Cliff Notes or Monarch Notes because of your great insight and your ability to summarize your ideas so neatly!

GREAT job!!

I'm going to have to also extol upon your posts here, Drkshadow03. I read this book this month without realising it to be part of the Book Club here, and while I enjoyed "Clay", it isn't till your posts that I realised the 'actual' story. I'm a little disappointed at having already returned the book now. Very interesting posts nonetheless. Thanks a lot!

Drkshadow

I commend you again, on that great post. I will be copying it out to my Word file, so I can indeed, refer to it when I read the stories a second time. It will aid me in my understanding; I am sure of it. Thanks again! It is a great help.

Hi everyone

I'm just half way in the stories, only the last four ones are left. I've had this impression that the stories are symbolizing the weakness of the Dubliners, Irish People, in getting their rights and independence. Major characters in the stories lost their right of choice. Everything happens against their plans and wishes.


That's my reading of the stories. Hope it was right.:D

I liked it very much, but I wouldn't recommend it. Joyce is not for everybody and his innovations have become short story requirements.

I liked some stories more than others, the favor determined by the characters.