"Everything that's small has to grow, and you know it always grows." - Led Zeppelin, "The Song Remains The Same"
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"Everything that's small has to grow, and you know it always grows." - Led Zeppelin, "The Song Remains The Same"
http://kuran.gen.tr/Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
There's 3 translations. Check them. I also checked Turkish ones, they weren't like as you said too.
Just looking for confirmation that I'd guessed right, or at least close enough, and you gave it. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
My disbelief in the Abrahamic/Islamic/Christian God doesn't mean I am an Atheist in the usual sense. A number of Atheists have told me I'm not a real one. It's funny, coming from a Catholic/fundamentalist background, to find 'atheists' playing the inquisitor and looking for heresy. I can almost smell the hot irons and incense, hear the chanting and the rattle of chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
However, I usually present myself as an Atheist because most people I meet believe in some kind of old bearded white guy on a throne, and can't conceive of anything else.
I haven't the slightest idea of what lies out there in the great unexplored vastness of what we don't know. I accept the idea that we'll slowly discover the rules of our universe, and I doubt that we'll find a separate intellect behind it all.
Your infinite point at infinite velocity may turn out to be a reasonable device for representing what's out there. If there's time, maybe it will tell.
in these circular arguments. I don't think anyones actually come up with anything philosophically or theologically insightful. You will always find a million ways to attack a religious text and a million ways to defend it because in effect it is solely a piece of literature. Why are you discussing it as if it's solid emperical data? it's 'just' a belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
It doesn't mean that when you write any qoranic verses that you understand them , and when somebody doesn't understand something that one has to search and ask people who understand and know .
Note , you said that ""from your understanding of Islam , the God IS NOT UNFAIR , isn't it ?""
So you now admit that God is Fair . Or What?!
according to The Holy Quran , Sura 91 , Verse 8 :
"7. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; "
"8. And its inspiration as to its wrong and its right."
When you want to study and to know something , you won't take anything you find , you have to ask , Is it right or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
so your Rodwell's translation is wrong , I'm a Muslim and I know what is right and what is wrong about my Religion.
so check out carefully anything before believing it .
http://kuran.gen.tr/?x=s_main&y=s_middle&kid=14&sid=91
I never wanted to enter that thread , but it is my duty to tell you the truth .
Allah has ninety nine names, one hundred minus one; and he who counts them all will enter Al-Jannah (the Garden Of Heaven), and Allah is "witr" (One) and loves the witr (i.e. odd numbers). [Al-Bukhaari, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasaai, Ibn Majah]
That are the prophet Muhammad's ( Peace Be Upon Him) Words .
So we know 99 names of God (Allah) . I'll mention some of them that belongs to that thread.
Al-Afuww (the Forgiving) ,Al-Ghafoor (the Forgiving) ,Al-Ghaffaar (the All-Forgiving) .
Allah said ,
"To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful." (4:152)
"But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe, and do right, who,- in fine, are on true guidance."
(20:82)
and also,
Ar-Rahmaan (The Most Beneficent) , Ar-Raheem (the Most Merciful) , Al-Barr (The Generous) , Al-Kareem (the Kind) , Al-Jawwaad (The Bestower of Good) , Ar-Ra`oof (the Kind) , Al-Wahhaab (The Bestower), Al-Lateef (the Most Subtle, the Kind).
"Truly, we did call unto Him from of old: truly it is He, the Beneficent, the Merciful" (52:28)
"O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-" (82:6)
" Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, and that Allah is full of kindness and mercy, (ye would be ruined indeed)." (24:20)
"Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thee; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure. (3:8)
Al-Hakam (The Judge) , Al-Adl (The Just)
"I put my trust in Allah, My Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He hath grasp of its fore-lock. Verily, it is my Lord that is on a straight Path. " (11:56)
"Say: "For me, I am on a clear Sign from my Lord, but ye reject Him. What ye would see hastened, is not in my power. The command rests with none but Allah: He declares the truth, and He is the best of judges." (6:57)
.........................................
``it's 'just' a belief.``
In all honesty, I view that as a wholesome approach to discussing the merits or demerits of any or all religions. Let's face it: more people have been killed, crippled, and maimed because of religion than for any other reason in history. If people had chosen to exchange ideas as we have done, rather than resort to violence, we would have had a more peaceful world.
We have behind us thousands of years of God's people obeying God's will and taking what God has promised them from savages, heathens, idolaters, infidels, and pagans. Even more frequently God's people battle among themselves for holy purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
On the other hand, people of all sorts have been known to do good, inspired by what they call their faith.
The faiths are different, but the outcomes are the same: Compassion and relief for the sick, the poor, and the oppressed. Education for the ignorant. Opportunity for the bereft.
Jesus, Ghandi, and an array of other leaders have encouraged us to do these things, and have done them themselves.
We'd often rather create tenants of faith to put in mouths, and then squabble over them, than do the work.
Just imagine what would happen if everyone shut the hell up about how justification occurs, or whether baptism means immersion or not. Imagine everyone was content to eat with publicans and sinners instead of getting their butts in knots over what was (or wasn't) being served and how. Imagine we just rolled up our sleeves and did the work before us. If there was a God, and he was as just and loving as all the combatants say He is, He'd smile at that.
``Rodwell's translation is wrong``
I don't know about that but recall that Pickthall essentially wrote the same thing years ago. If you can show me where impartial scholars acknowledge your claim as fact, please present them here.
A friend of mine is Shiia Muslim and he acknowledges that Allah creates all evil [his late father was an Islamic scholar]. However, he sees it as ultimately creating a greater good.
I do not engage in the practice of twisting anybody's arm. If you prefer a world full of death, destruction, evil, bad weather, hunger, diseases, and starvation because you feel it will ultimately be good, and you feel that anybody other than its creater is to blamed for all unhappiness, then so be it.
But to me, both the Bible and Koran make it clear enough that only one source can be responsible for all the world's ills. Therefore, those ills cannot be attributed to mankind.
``{Matthew} Verses 22 and 23 are just saying that people who are bad all the time``
People who heal the sick and raise the dead cannot possible be bad all the time. :)
"more people have been killed, crippled, and maimed because of religion than for any other reason in history."
So you keep saying.
How about some figures, please?
Since your comment followed mine I'm guessing you're talking to me as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by np6399
I like solid, empirical data. I also appreciate discussion of scriptures. At one time, apart from accounting tablets at the granary, they were the closest thing people had to empirical data.
God was a useful tool for making sense of our universe. Once. As was the geocentric model. Models give us an explanation for what we see. Models are hypotheses. Unfortunately we become wedded to what we 'know.' Insight is a possible outcome of argument about what we 'know.'
There are few things civilized people get so riled about as their God and what He wants. Whatever the cause of a war, it gets cloaked in religion. Leaders tell their armies that their God is marching with them. Except the godless commies. But since there are no atheists in foxholes this still leaves both sides believing they're fighting the good fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
"More" is a reasonable supposition to make.
I agree completely, yes there have been a lot of people killed due to religious differences. But I can not think off hand of 1 war fought in the last 300 years which was mainly due to religious ideology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
I would suggest that more people have been killed due to colonialism than anything else.
Nobody said God doesn't creates all evil. I just pointed your reference was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
God creates everything, good thing and evil things. But that doesn't makes him unfair. I explained it clear enough. He creates the concept of evil, MEN chooses to do them. If evil wouldn't created, man would not have chance to choose. And whole point of life would be meaningless if there wouldn't be free will.
:thumbs_upQuote:
Originally Posted by kilted exile
``How about some figures, please? ``
``religious ideology``
Hundreds of books have been written over the years about the millions killed because of religion. But rather than go through a prolonged list of books, here's a web site that gives a few details on those casualties:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon
As for the notion that religion has had nothing to do with deaths arising from religious considerations, one need only read Hitler's evil avowals about Jews. He made absurd allegation that they were the spawn of Satan and ''justified'' himself in the name of Christianity. And note that just a handful of years ago, right wing hero George Bush openly averred that he was divinely inspired by the Christian god to invade Iraq. The resulting death of one million Iraqis cannot be attributed to anything other than the quest for oil profits and a bigoted desire to decimate Muslims.
Western imperialism such as King Leopold's invasion of Congo in which he killed over 10 million was ''justified'' in the name of civilization and of bringing Christianity to Africans. The British and other Western imperialists did the same in many parts of the world:
http://www.aldridgeshs.qld.edu.au/so...s/religion.htm
quote:
``thanks to the influence of Livingstone (Tucker), the main reason for British Imperialism in Africa was to bring Christianity, not to mention the European's idea of "civilization" to African countries.
This decade witnessed the heyday of self-confident, often self-congratulatory and always aggressive Imperialism in which Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States conquered and annexed in the name of civilization." ``
And just to get back to the subject of the Bible and whether its god is so fair, again, why would an ever loving, beneficent, self-sacrificing, all giving, merciful, and good god create a book that would be used by the Hitlers, Bushs, Leopolds, and other genocidists to kill, steal, exploit, and destroy??
``Nobody said God doesn't creates all evil.``
This thread came about because on another thread this spurious allegation had been made incessantly.
``I'm a Muslim and I know what is right and what is wrong about my Religion.``
I do not profess to have any expertise on Islam. But I am aware that the Koran refers to the Bible as ''the Book''. Therefore, it would appear that any religious doctrine or teaching must be in compliance with the Bible's teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Look , I told you check out your words , and be polite when you are talking about quran and Islam ,
you want to insult people , this is what you want to do , I never wished to speak with some one has nothing to do in the world except telling lies , I know that you won't believe anything except your thoughts , Ill thoughts ,
so it is better not to speak with some one as you .
Again , respect our beliefs , and take care from your words.
Please do not personalise your arguments
and
if you do not want your views challanged, refrain from posting especially in this seciton of the Forum.