So, what do you all think, did the Satan come to Moscow looking for the master? I think yes.
Why was only the master able to liberate Pilate?
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So, what do you all think, did the Satan come to Moscow looking for the master? I think yes.
Why was only the master able to liberate Pilate?
Well, I believe that in the context of the story, Master depicted the story of Jesus accurately, as opposed to what Matthew and others made of it in the Bible. Perhaps Margarita couldn't go to heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Quite true ;) But perhaps Jeshua didn't like that in the end (at least after 2000 years of his being considered divine and being worshipped by milions of people). Perhaps he didn't like this new author, the master, who was "enlighted" and managed to reveal the truth about his identity and his real story..Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
In the end Jeshua appears to be in heaven or something, sending Mathew Levy as his ambassador to Satan..so you can assume that either:
a) Master didn't get the story right (which i don't believe is the case)
b)Jesus isn't as gentle and kind as it is depicted by Christianity and is denying Master the privilege of going to the light because he "doesn't believe he is worthy of the light" (to quote the book) because he failed to depict him as a holy being. Geezzz...there are many possible interpretations :lol: but having in mind that the book is mocking religion - among other things- (this is how i take it at least) it sounds probable to me. Besides god and Satan aren't in very bad terms (in the context of the story) :lol: .
One more thought: I think that Master is very kindly treated by Satan, Jesus' rival..And if you agree with me that Satan came to Moscow looking for the Master (the author of the story of Jesus' real life)..perhaps we have something here..
Hmmm..i haven't thought about that. But i believe that the decision wasn't necessarily being taken for the Master's gratification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Because he wrote a story where Pilat was sitting in the garden and waiting for Jeshua to come; story was unfinished and only Master, as a writer of that story could finish it. He decided to let him go free in eternity.Quote:
Why was only the master able to liberate Pilate?
Margarita was like Tatyana, model of great Russian women in Pushkin's Eugene Onegin, so she has almost all good merits: she is smart, honest, loyal, etc so I believe she could go to heaven, but Master couldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
Why did soldier stab Jeshua in his heart instead of his ribs? Another fact showing that whole story about Jesus is fake? In my opinion, that's the reason why Master get Satan and hell instead of heaven.
P.S. 15th nissan really is a day of Jesus death. Well done, Bulgakov!
I was thinking for while about this discussion and I think I do not really agree with you that Bulgakov is mocking religion, I think he actually mocks it's misunderstanding. Whit such old religion as Christianity there are so many things that people don't get anymore and according to his it was like this even in the beginning. I don't think he is ridiculing the Christianity but the people that can't understand it without some great miracles and some razzle-dazzle. They can't believe in the reality, in ll that common sense told them to and search for the divine and good in the miracles, when it is more or less in the world surrounding them. That's why almost all the wonders in the book belong to the department of Voland,the department of Satan, because good and divine doesn't reveal themselves in marvels, because with marvels is too easy to believe in something and the real thing is to believe in the goodness within you and within the reality that surrounds you.
p.s. Now, you are going to tell me nobody thinks that Bulgakov ridicule religion :lol: , so I am going to say it now - Sorry if I have misunderstood something.
Well if we consider that Margarita is a witch and made a pact with the devil, I believe this is a sufficient reason in christian lore to be barred from heaven, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Well, a a couple of points
For me Margarita is nothing like Tatyana, whose character is not even half strong as Margo's. She saves her lover like Gretchen does in "Faust" (there are in general a great number of similarities between "M&M" and faust) but not just by asking the Virgin but making the pact with the devil- wouldn't any of us want a woman like that? Margarita originally didn't have much of a role in te novel and only in the final versions she became the main heroine- after Bulgakov married his 3rd wife Elena Sergeevna.
Bulgakov doesn't mock religion- it's more like he mocks its modern interpretation- the whole argument that I've read about Jeshua being unhappy that Master has depicted him as human would make the hero of Bulgakov's novel very unhappy.
About master not earning the light but only peace. First of all who decided that light is better- that's what Woland tells Master and Margarita. But for me there is much more important reason. Jeshua says that cowardice is the worst of vices, and Master is very guilty of it- he doesn't fight for his novel, he gives it up, burns it and voluntarily goes to asylum (btw unbelievably prophetic- in later Soviet years dissidents were put into asylum- how can you not be happy under our great regime- you must be crazy). We know that "manuscripts do not burn", but the fact is the fact- Master is a very weak man who is saved by extremely strong and resourceful woman. And here we can feel Bulgakov's own guilt- after all he did exactly what Master did by burning the first version of "M&M" (it was called differently), and he did even worse than that- he compromised with Stalin writing a play about him. I am not saying that to condemn him or somethig- after all it was almost impossible for a writer in USSR not to compromise at least a bit, and Stalin (whose favorite play btw was Bulgakov's "Days of Turbins") did personally called him and then elped to obtain work at one of Moscow theatres. I do not judge him, but he himself undoubtedly did. He himself thinks that he is not worthy of light, he feels guilty...
Yes i thought that too, that since the Master is the creator of the story he is the one who can set his creation free..but Pilat is supposedly waiting for about 2000 years..before Master wrote his novel ;) Errmmmm..ok. Nevermind :DQuote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
That's what i believe too..;) After all Master's faith is discussed and determined and not Margarita's. Margarita short of follows ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Can you expand on this a bit? Sounds interesting ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
:thumbs_up great post Alexei :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
That's why i believe he (Bulgakov) is mocking religion because the interpretation of the scriptures (wittily portrayed in the book with the juxtaposition of the true story vs Mathew Levy's distortion of it) is what most people believe in after all ;) I am an atheist, so i don't have much of an opinion about the said interpretation. Everyone is free to believe whatever he/she wants and everyone is free not to believe, also :)
Hehehe not necessarily (in the context of the book, always ;) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
Hey Boris i believe you aren't reading this book for the first time, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris239
I think you are right..perhaps one should read this book twice in order to get the most of it ;) It's like reading a black comedy directed by David Lynch if you know what i mean ;) :lol:
Anyway, i liked your explanation (after all it is repeatedly said that cowardice is the worst of sins, so this must be significant). And if you consider the information you'd given us about Bulgakov's life it indeed makes sense :nod:
Her pact with Devil was made only from her wish to save Master and their love, so all her ''bad'' actions are product of her love. God didn't made her that kind of deal, and Satan did so she ended up with Satan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
But Master's novel was saying about what happened 2000 years ago, and it was very accurate, just like it really did happen. That's way Pilate was still waiting (parallel worlds :lol: )Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Jeshua is 27 instead of 33 years old, soldier stabbed him in his heart instead of his ribs, Levi Matheus was his disciple but Joseph from Arimatheus took his body and putted it in the grave, Jeshua was somewhere there under some rocks, Jesus's grave was a known spot. Woland or Devil on Earth is like a question: You want to see Apocalypse? Here you go! Apocalypse should be the end, and it doesn't look so, does it?Quote:
Can you expand on this a bit? Sounds interesting ;)
So, it looks to me that he laughs to story about Jesus!
Hehehe like "The terminator" movie :lol: in a sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Oh i see...i think someone else...Boris perhaps..said something like that..that the alternative (Satan's offer) is not that bad after all ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Well, ends just the cause, does it?
I did not read the book and, much to my regret, will not have the time to join in the discussion. My understanding is that the book is chock full of symbolism that is often overlooked by Western readers. Does anyone know what those symbols are?
Master and Margarita mini serial was recorded in 2005, I heard it's great. You can find it and download it on....yes, it's forbidden; I know :D
So, try to find if you like; if you can't send me PM and I'll help you.
Before I retired from the forum I started reading The Master and Margarita, but even with the well endowed footnotes from Richard Fevear, in my e-edition, I find the subversive intent of Bulgakov to be elusive, maybe not quite as baffling as Flan's The Third Policeman, but still puzzling, at least to the extent that Menippean satire is not something I master easily, Swift's work being an exception. This is not to say that the dynamic within the text isn't appealing. The jagged locking of horns between Berlioz, Homeless, and the professor is funny, as is the editor's death, but Bulgakov isn't Tolstoy, with a messianic strain thrumming our ear drums.
Conceptually, to me state ideology and religous orthodoxy are flip sides of the same coin, so thus far, I am not sure who or what I'm rooting for, wondering the meanwhile if there isn't a Russian author alive or dead who doesn't annoy me on some level, even Tatyana, whose work I enjoy.
I'm still in the opening chapters, however, and won't push myself any further along, for now.