are women losing their sense of feminity?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

i'll say it again. those days ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the other guys that didn't open doors for them or pay for dinner. :D

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So, perhaps women stopped being feminine and classy when they realised the men fell for the other girls who "curse, drink beer (though a Bud isn't really beer - give us a proper pint of John Smiths or Worthington's any day :D ), yell, spit, smoke, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention" to quote your own example ;)

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

excellent comments, yes!!!

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore. there's a built-in fear in them that if they want to be classy, sophisticated, they best make that a fashion statement, not a character statement. or else they're labeled JAPS or stuck up or not fun to be around by other women.

and god forbid a woman calls herself a 'stay-at-home' mom in front of other women at a Starbucks! gasp!

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

another question is, how can women find out who they are if they're so busy copying the very worst behaviors of men (a very small percentage of slobs)?


how does this all translate to kids who watch their 45-year old mothers walking around wearing little backpacks and botox lips while drinking beer till they're a drunken slob?

and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

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I don't think it's lack of "feminity" you're criticising here Jon, more like apathy.
Why should men be allowed to spend their times at the bar and neglect the kids, while women are left to clean up the mess? It is only up until very recently that various waves of 20th and 21st century feminism has allowed women in society to be allowed the same social, political and economic oppurtunities as men. The oppression experienced and restrictions imposed on women up until then( and still occuring now to a lesser degree) caused some pretty severe resentment and hostility. Men have been doing the things you've described for centuries, why is it the women who have to clean up their act? Can you blame women for wanting a little backlash after centuries of being trapped in the domestic circle?
Inner drive to be like men? So you've copyrighted alcohol?

You forget that, although we may be seeing a rise in womens freedom of behaviour in Western society, most of the modern world is still dominated by patriarchal beliefs and rules. Women are severely abused and oppressed all around the world, the justification being that they are subservient to men and should therefore play their game.

Who puts the pressure on women to get "botox lips"? People don't undergo plastic surgery for recreation. The media, still dominated by men, re-enforces societal expectations that women should look and act ideally. This is still a man's world, some women are simply wanting a little of the action.
My question is, why don't MEN change their ways? Just because they've been acting this way for longer, doesn't make it any better.

I read the first post of this thread (topic) and my head hurt badly.

I personally believe that it's hypocritical to shout "equal treatment" and then complain when men don't treat them as kind or open doors for them and stuff...

And I also find it annyoing that people complain that women are loosing their sense of feminity and then complain about how disney is truning their little girls into princesses ;)

I agree that the stereotypes suck, I find it so annoying that whenever my theatre teacher curses, he looks at me and gives me a guilty look... And I am notorious in other classes for... erm... expressing myself rather loudly without censoring myself... I want to kick him everytime he does it, but he's my teacher, and I dislike theatre, and I need a good a grade I can get ;)

Anyways, there is a double standard, and it also sucks... I know people have already talked about it:

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just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

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But it also goes the other way... If a male teacher sleeps with a girl for grades, it's jail, do not pass go, and the girl is ridiculed... but if a female teacher sleeps with a boy for grades, it takes longer to put her in jail, and she usually gets a lesser sentence, and the guy gets congradulated for doing it with the hot teacher...

And nowadays, the US has gone insane... Some seventh grader was sent to jail for slapping girls' butts!! They got five days in jail, were charged with felony sex charges, which could have been placed on sexual predator lists for the rest of their lives, and the penalty for which is 10 years in jail...

I think, that is some cases, women are more feminine than ever, and I'd personally rather have a spitting, cursing, and drunk woman, than one who is so easily offended and gets worked up over stupid things...

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

sure girls aspire to paris hilton or else she wouldn't be on every other pop mag cover. in the last 25 years, the three women most responsible for setting the trend that being a sleazy female is cool goes to:

1. Madonna
2. Courtney Love
3. Britney Spears
:D

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Umm...no. Not to be mean, but no.

She's on every other pop magazine cover because she does crazy, idiotic things. It doesn't mean people respect and/or aspire to be her; you don't respect her, and I don't either. If they do, it's probably for her looks, not for what she does. I could be wrong, but I think you have to give more credit to girls than that. We're not stupid, maybe easily amused by tabloids, but not stupid.

And I recall a boy in my fourth grade class buying a book on Britney Spears from the book fair for the pictures. It's not always girls buying those books, and I don't think he respected her either.

I have no idea who Courtney Love is.

-Anna.

What about all the men who encourage women to be sleazy? All the rappers and male celebrities objectifying women in their "art" and music? Women like the ones Jon mentioned being idolized by males as the ideal of physical beauty? What kind of message are men sending to women by showing their "appreciation" for these female celebrities?

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Originally Posted by Shalot

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit.

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Yeah, for the rest of them. But this no underwear with kilt thing can be a real pain:lol: :p

Ok, so back on topic. I have a lot of female friends who drink, smoke & swear. I dont see them as any less feminine, less "strait-laced" perhaps but not less feminine.

i'm sure all us women on litnet appreciate those works kilted!:thumbs_up
So its true about the kilt thing.:p

The original post is patronizing, sexist, offensive and ignorant in the extreme.

EAP and All> If you find the OP disagreeable, please feel free to ignore this particular thread.

If you would like to take part in the discussion or challenge the OP, however, please do so without resorting to inflammatory comments.

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Originally Posted by EAP

The original post is patronizing, sexist, offensive and ignorant in the extreme.

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It was a joke! :D
Did you not get it?

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

scared of women encroaching on men's territory?

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i'll never tell. :p

this thread makes me want to drink tequila while riding a motorcycle in silk pajamas to the nail salon to get a pedicure before running off to Mexico (by myself) to compete in a wind-sailing competition, and make my way, perhaps, (If I really felt like it) to jump off of the empire state building in a prom-dress and a bowler hat, on the way down I'll curse like a sailor. Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can. and even a rat in a trap while struggle 'till they are dead.

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Originally Posted by Niamh

i'm sure all us women on litnet appreciate those works kilted!:thumbs_up

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If you are referring to my "works" to prevent displaying myself when wearing a kilt, I think women are not the main ones that appreciate it;)

If it is a typo and you meant words well erm yeah

typo. ment words!:blush: its amazing how typing in one letter wrong can change the intire meaning of a sentence!:blush: :lol:

I was refaring to this statement

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Ok, so back on topic. I have a lot of female friends who drink, smoke & swear. I dont see them as any less feminine, less "strait-laced" perhaps but not less feminine.

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Originally Posted by Granny5

I think we have lost something, but I'm not sure if we lost it or if men just tossed it out.

That doesn't make much sense now that I've read what I wrote. Did we lose something or did men toss it out? That's better.

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that's an interesting point, granny, i'd like to hear you elaborate some on your idea that men contributed to the demise of women. how so? i think in some sense that is true.

this reminds me of women in the 1950s, the so-called happy homemaker. the average age a women married in the '50s was 20 or 21. but women rebelled the following decade, the 1960s, rejecting what they saw as an oppressive lifestyle.

the ideas of feminism were flourishing in the 1960s, remember?

perhaps the women who behave like slobby men today are unconsciously bitter or resentful that breaking free was not what they really wanted, it was only what they thought they wanted.

think about it this way, women in many ways have returned to that cushy life of "security" that the 1950s had offered them. and even though more women today are pursuing careers and earning six figure salaries, there still is an underlying tension in the relations between men and women. why?

my answer is that women learned that they need men, and so perhaps women are jealous because men are truly free and they are not, no matter how much they liberate themselves.

the modern woman's i-do-what-i-want-when-i-want attitude may be their silent way of saying "F-off" to the world. :p

Ive been thinking about this for the last hour or so and it occurs to me that what is going on here is a conflicit between different deffintions of feminity.
I mean look at it this way it depend on how you define what is feminie. Say there exsists a culture ( not sure there is one but whatever) where the woman does the hunting and all that other stuff- then in That culture feminie is the hunting person who _lets go with this_ smells of rotten meat and spits and curses and whatvere. And its more 'masculine' to stay home and clean.

So, if anyone is still following, my point is that we have the shall we call it pre femnist ideal of feminie and today in our PC post post modern post post feminist ( I actually had a teacher who referted to this era as that ) era we have the conflicts of the objectification and general hypocricy towards women ( see The Sun for further ref) the equality argument, and the a whole load of other arguments about gender roles and steryotypes all clashed together resulting in 'the modern woman'.

And that was me waffling meaninglessly- its good to be back:D


EDIT: Im strangly reminded of a short story from the 1920s or earlier I think. about a couple --who are jealous of each other the husband because the wife stays at home and does nothing all day and the wife because he gets to go out and she is stuck with the kids and the house- who swap bodies for the day and each find that really they were happier in the roles they had orginally. Although I do remeber thinking the woman got a bit of a bashing.

I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:

http://flakmag.com/film/images/stepford.jpg

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:

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Only unintelligent men want those....

This thread is hilarious. :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Riesa

this thread makes me want to drink tequila while riding a motorcycle in silk pajamas to the nail salon to get a pedicure before running off to Mexico (by myself) to compete in a wind-sailing competition, and make my way, perhaps, (If I really felt like it) to jump off of the empire state building in a prom-dress and a bowler hat, on the way down I'll curse like a sailor. Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can. and even a rat in a trap while struggle 'till they are dead.

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Riesa, I cannot picture you as anything but feminine, no matter how much you swear and drink. :)

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Originally Posted by Riesa

Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can...

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funny you said that, my friend bought a Hummer recently and when i asked him why he bought a vehicle that gets only 12 miles to a gallon and is an environmental hazard, he answered half-jokingly, "because I can." :lol:

that's the highest expression of power. women must be truly free, see that? :D

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:

http://flakmag.com/film/images/stepford.jpg

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well, can you tell me if there is such a woman out there that has the looks of a Stepford wife with a creative intellect (and not a slob)? :D that's asking for alot, no?

riesa...can i come too???

Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.

I'd shoot myself if I lived in the stepford society. Wow...the scariest movie I ever saw!

If the original post is a joke then it's not a particularly funny one; if not - then I stand by my comments.

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Originally Posted by EAP

If the original post is a joke then it's not a particularly funny one; if not - then I stand by my comments.

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Laughter is the sun that drives the winter from the human face :D

Misogyny is not something to laugh about.

There is no mysogny in the thread it is just humourous banter :D

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

There is no mysogny in the thread it is just humourous banter :D

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Perhaps you need the definition:

mi·sog·y·ny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.



This thread has it all.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Perhaps you need the definition:

mi·sog·y·ny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.



This thread has it all.

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yes it does. I dont think the op was ment as a joke Lote.:)

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Originally Posted by Niamh

yes it does. I dont think the op was ment as a joke Lote.:)

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Sorry I am getting mixed up with my threads...i menat the chicks are cool thread is not mysogynistic :D

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Laughter is the sun that drives the winter from the human face :D

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"Not by wrath, but by laughter do you kill." - Nietzsche

Although I think it's out of context here. :) I've just been wanting to use it somewhere..

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

Are women losing their sense of femininity?

women are becoming slobs, especially the ones between 18-35 but by no means limited to that age group. i've seen grandmothers behave like out of control children.


what i mean is, women have no class---they curse, yell, spit, smoke, drink beer, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention. just consider Paris Hilton. :lol:


it's not just the outrageous behavior, it's rolls up to the level of female professionals who behave like barbarians in the workplace, taking on attitudes and behaviors that were once only assigned to the worst men. some women even pride themselves in having a reputation as a "*itch"


nor have i seen men make spectacles of themselves to the degree women do---not even in the tabloids. it's most often women.

there's a sense in all this that women no longer stand for that divine presence they once possessed. or in the way Chet Baker once sung about them. ahhh.

have you experienced a decline in womanhood? :D

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:lol::lol: I've just gotten to this thread. I don't know where it has gone either. I don't behave like a lady all of the time, but I like to think I have decent manners. I often wonder when it became alright to be rude and dress like you are on a street corner. My parents would have strangled me if I behaved like most girls do, and I have to admit I would do the same to my daughter. She's a baby so lucky for me I don't have to worry over it for a long time:D I'll read the rest of this thread when I find the time, because I'm sure the ensuing tumult you've created is funny. I'm laughing it up with Virgil :lol:

Feminity doesn't exist. It was imposed by a patriarchal society to make women inferior...

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Originally Posted by EAP

Misogyny is not something to laugh about.

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you're wrong EAP that i'm a misogynist. i highly encourage you to read some of my posts where i take a stand against misogyny, particularly the Hip Hop thread. ;)

i don't "hate, dislike, or mistrust" women. that's why i've been trying to frame the issues in the form of questions...ahem...with the exception of the OP. :D c'mon, misogynistic? :goof:

hey, this is a discussion with the intention and aim to locate the sources for the decline of femininity today.

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Originally Posted by Bakiryu

Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.

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i think this is true, and i alluded to the cultural phenomena of male metrosexuals. lifestyles of men and women are changing, that's evident enough. so do you think that the decline of femininity is in some way tied to a more general change in the roles of gender? or are they separate?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

i think this is true, and i alluded to the cultural phenomena of male metrosexuals. lifestyles of men and women are changing, that's evident enough. so do you think that the decline of femininity is in some way tied to a more general change in the roles of gender? or are they separate?

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It's pretty much all tied up together. With men deciding they don't really care about being manly and social standards for both sexes being relaxed. Why put the effort into being more feminine, if nobody cares?

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Originally Posted by Bakiryu

Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.

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Perfectly true - and a disaster for modern relationships.

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Originally Posted by Mrs. Dalloway

Feminity doesn't exist. It was imposed by a patriarchal society to make women inferior...

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Absurd; psychology has clearly acknowledged that men and women are "wired" up differently, that - at their core - they are fundamentally different not only in body, but in emotional, psychological and relational makeup. Get real - patriarchal societies do not have the power to make women "feminine" - although it can influence them towards masculinity (as we currently see, and that's not a pretty picture). And, by the way, what would women be like had patriarchal society not foisted their phony "femininity" on them? Masculine? What?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Perfectly true - and a disaster for modern relationships.



Absurd; psychology has clearly acknowledged that men and women are "wired" up differently, that - at their core - they are fundamentally different not only in body, but in emotional, psychological and relational makeup. Get real - patriarchal societies do not have the power to make women "feminine" - although it can influence them towards masculinity (as we currently see, and that's not a pretty picture). And, by the way, what would women be like had patriarchal society not foisted their phony "femininity" on them? Masculine? What?

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well said, Red. i agree---it's true, how the heck does a patriarchal society make a woman feminine??

given the fact that women are moving towards masculinity, i wonder whether the laws of evolution hold that women will eventually begin to grow a beard. :D

I’ve been thinking about this and I believe, for now anyway,
that some things that make us feel feminine have fallen to the
wayside. Men have become confused, and for good reason, about
how women should be treated. Men used to open doors, sit only
after the female was seated, stand when a woman entered the room,
lift any heavy objects, and just generally be gentlemen around women.
Now I don’t know if they know what is the correct way to behave.
There is a big difference in equality in the workplace and in life.
Some women are confused too. They think it’s an insult to them
as women if a man treats them like my mother expected to be treated.
I think that if I stood by and waited for a man about to enter a door
that I was about to enter to open it, I’d be standing there a long time.
Unless the man is older, I don’t think he’d know what my problem was.
When we are dressed and going out, Poppy walks around and opens
my car door for me. On a daily basis, trips to the store and whatnot,
he’d think there was something wrong with me if I sat there and waited
for him to come around and open my door. The social climate now is
confusing for both sexes. We aren’t just losing our femininity, but
I think men have lost something too.

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Originally Posted by Granny5

I’ve been thinking about this and I believe, for now anyway,
that some things that make us feel feminine have fallen to the
wayside. Men have become confused, and for good reason, about
how women should be treated. Men used to open doors, sit only
after the female was seated, stand when a woman entered the room,
lift any heavy objects, and just generally be gentlemen around women.
Now I don’t know if they know what is the correct way to behave.
There is a big difference in equality in the workplace and in life.
Some women are confused too. They think it’s an insult to them
as women if a man treats them like my mother expected to be treated.
I think that if I stood by and waited for a man about to enter a door
that I was about to enter to open it, I’d be standing there a long time.
Unless the man is older, I don’t think he’d know what my problem was.
When we are dressed and going out, Poppy walks around and opens
my car door for me. On a daily basis, trips to the store and whatnot,
he’d think there was something wrong with me if I sat there and waited
for him to come around and open my door. The social climate now is
confusing for both sexes. We aren’t just losing our femininity, but
I think men have lost something too.

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you make some excellent points and come to an interesting conclusion. i have experienced women dismiss respectable, decent men time and again and settle for a "bad boy."

the problem starts and ends with women and their nutty desire to be with that kind of guy. the challenge literally consumes them. perhaps this awful drive is inspired by their motherly instinct to nurture and rehabilitate. It becomes a power struggle---a game, a game that women created and bad boys control, while the rest of the single male population sits around wondering why in the hell those women would even bother in the first place. :D