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Well, Quasi, we are getting a little off the topic, aren't we? Remember the Tortoise poem? I just skimmed the article; it's too long to read in depth; I am too tired now, but as you said who this woman is channeling with is beyond our comprehension - aliens or what? K-Pax? we should be in the movie thread. Also, the article mentions Y2K and it was written in 1995, before the millenium....the supposed big Y2K event. Now the 'dead sea scrolls' - they interest me. Any articles on those?
To Janine: Since I'm not up to speed on Lawrence's poems, I did manage to dig up this combination pub/shrine which thrives on D.H.'s work. Hope it is more than just a diversion...
OUT OF STOCK
978-1-55017-194-5 · 1-55017-194-1
$16.95 · Paperback
6 x 9 · 104 pp · 1998
Table of Contents and Introductions by Purdy and Beardsley
Excerpt
Reviews
No One Else is Lawrence!
A Dozen of D.H Lawrence's Best Poems
by Doug Beardsley & Al Purdy
Winner of a BC 2000 Book Prize
"Canada needs more books like this."
-Wireweed
Almost seventy years after his death, D.H. Lawrence (1885--1930) remains one of the most complex and controversial figures in English literature. Remembering the days when the English writer was vilified as a writer of "sexy books with four-letter words," twice Governor-General's Award-winning poet Al Purdy feels that Lawrence should be celebrated not only for his prose work, but for his poetry.
"Lawrence's genius [as a poet] has long been obscured by the brilliance and fame of his novels and essays," Purdy writes in his introduction to this literary feast. "But let's ignore both critics and admirers and look at the poems. At his very best, Lawrence's poems are unequaled."
from: http://www.harbourpublishing.com/tit...ElseisLawrence
Ok, here are my thoughts.
I almost want to look at this poem inward out, for what we observe on the tortoise’s shell is in actuality like observing the composition of the tortoise itself. What interest me is the tortoise shell’s structure being likened to all these different creatures:
“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”
The importance of these specific creatures…I don’t know; but I think the more important thing is we “see life playing” on the tortoise shell. In the last poem I questioned whether Lawrence believed in evolution; in this poem Lawrence states the Lord set out the plan on the tortoise; in this way I feel the tortoise did not evolve from other creatures as a result of there surroundings more than the tortoise came about in accordance to His plan.
The other thing I noticed you two noticed as well: the importance of numbers in this poem. For me the denomination that stood out was five, since the tortoise was described as a “five-folded complex-natured” creature. I think if you go through the poem and count the number of creatures that are mentioned, you get five. And if you look at the grooves that run throughout the tortoise shell, it is analogous to one river that feeds into a whole bunch of smaller streams which crisscross each other. The numbers “fives and tens/threes and fours and twelves” can be obtained, depending on which streams you select for the river to feed into, sectioning off the spaces(like the sections of the tortoise shell) in between the streams.
Even more important than the number five is every fifth integer: five, ten, fifteen, etc. This fifth integer was described as the keystone at one point in the poem, which is a kind of lock that is used as support by keeping arches locked to each other; in another part of the poem the fifth integer is the “wedge-balancing head” needed to balance off the “four rowing limbs”. But in another part of the poem it is described as the “problematic thumb-piece” to the other “four pin-point toes”. What? I don’t get this because it goes contradictory to the stabilization factor of this fifth integer.
Lots of number in the poem, but I agree, five seems to be the most important. I have no idea why exactly. Here is where he brings together the cross symbol and the number five:
In what way is nature "five fold?" That would seem to be the key to understanding this poem.Quote:
The Cross!
It goes right through him, the sprottling insect,
Through his cross-wise cloven psyche,
Through his five-fold complex-nature.
Also, there is in the last stanza a neat little conclusion that sums the whole poem up.
The Lord wrote the significance of life on the little slate of the baby tortoise shell. That is the central theme. But what exactly did He write?Quote:
The Lord wrote it down on the little slate
Of the baby tortoise.
Outward and visible indication of the plan within,
The complex, manifold involvedness of an individual creature
Plotted out
On this small bird, this rudiment,
This little dome, this pediment
Of all creation,
This slow one.
I have been reading you posts - all of them truly fascinating. I can tell you both have an engineering mind. I reviewed the "Apogalypse" book last night and I think I have come up with some answers/ideas - I have definitely come up with some correlations in L's thinking to the bibilical references of numbers and number systems. I will either scan parts that are of interest/relevant to this topic or type them out.
I have a question, Virgil and ktd: The 'pentagon' is a plane figure with 5 angles and 5 sides. Could this have significance? Pentagons play heavily into myth and legend and mystiscism and the biblical. 5 is a very prominent number in the Apogalyspe/Revelations. I will look up the direct references to the number 5 and what significance it has.
I think the last 2 lines of the poem embodies the theme, if taken in context with the whole stanza. This is the pattern found throughout nature - therefore the formula/pattern on the Tortoise is written down as the formula "Of all creation". The tortoise shell embodies the map or the numerical equation for all things in nature and creation. I will look up this fact in my nature books and also confer with a friend of mine who is heavy into botany and nature, and get back to you on this idea.
This poem is truly a challenge and very exciting to me!
I will be back soon with a full entry and also want to comment on both of your posts. ktd brings up some very interesting numerical facts, like the 5 creatures mentioned. I think I know what they may represent as well. I have to study the poem closer.
The irony. I've been speaking with a fellow LitNetter about wanting to get into reading more poetry. Hmmm....Janine, you've got to stop wandering into my brain!!!
I'm a newbie to poetry. Maybe I will see how I work this out!
Grace, glad to see you here! Yes, we must have ESP!
This poem is a good one - a real puzzle and a challenge. You will like it. We have had good disussions on this thread, thanks to ktd and Virgil, of course.
I have some new information on the short story. Found some stuff today in a critical review book I bought a year ago and forgot I had. You know the old story: "so many books, too little time."
Anyway, delighted to see you here, Grace!
ktd,, Hope you caught my other post right after yours last night. Ok, I have been researching and thinking like crazy about this poem. I know what you mean by your first statement. Lawrence does mention the pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same. I think the animal, insect images are referring to set patterns in nature such as 'wasp-bands', 'tiger-stripes'. These all have a formula and a predestined pattern based on numbers/shapes in nature. Here are some references I have come up with from my readings about patterns in nature:Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
This site on patterning, hope this is the right link -
http://www.scottcamazine.com/personal/DesignNature/
Also, the references to the pentagon shape are interesting and incorporate the idea of the number 5. If you take a pentagon and connect the points you will come up with a star pattern or the pentagram. Here's the definitions of each:
Quote:
pentagon
In geometry, a pentagon is any five-sided polygon. However, the term is commonly used to mean a regular pentagon, where all sides are equal and all angles are equal (to 108°). The angles in every pentagon total 540°, even if each individual angle is not 108°. Its Schläfli symbol is {5}.
The area of a regular pentagon with side length t is given by
The sides and diagonals of a regular pentagon are in the golden ratio.
A pentagram
A pentagram (sometimes known as pentalpha or pentangle) is the shape of a five-pointed star drawn with five straight strokes. The word pentagram comes from the Greek word πεντάγραμμον (pentagrammon), a noun form of πεντάγραμμος (pentagrammos) or πεντέγραμμος (pentegrammos), a word meaning roughly "five-lined" or "five lines".
Pentagrams were used symbolically in ancient Greece and Babylonia. The Pentagram has magical associations, and many people who practice neopagan faiths wear jewelry incorporating the symbol. Christians once more commonly used the pentagram to represent the five wounds of Jesus,[1][2] and it also has associations within Freemasonry.
The pentagram has long been associated with the planet Venus, and the worship of the goddess Venus, or her equivalent. It is also associated with the Roman Lucifer, who was Venus as the Morning Star, the bringer of light and knowledge. It is most likely to have originated from the observations of prehistoric astronomers.[citation needed] When viewed from Earth, successive inferior conjunctions of Venus plot a nearly perfect pentagram shape around the zodiac every eight years.
The word "pentacle" is sometimes used synonymously with "pentagram", although their technical usages are different, and their etymologies may be unrelated.[3]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note throughout both texts an emphasis on the number 5. The star formed by the pentagram has 5 points and the pentagon has 5 points and 5 sides. Also most notable is that in nature the pentagon is the shape of a cell in a bee's honeycomb. If you look at the back of a tortoise two things stand out right away - the top series of the shell parts look like a lobster. The second thing I notice is the the sections also look similar to pentagons.
I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important. Here is a brief history on Pythagoras (I underlined key phrases, words that might pertain to the ideas we are discussing in reference to the poem):Quote:
The importance of these specific creatures…I don’t know; but I think the more important thing is we “see life playing” on the tortoise shell. In the last poem I questioned whether Lawrence believed in evolution; in this poem Lawrence states the Lord set out the plan on the tortoise; in this way I feel the tortoise did not evolve from other creatures as a result of there surroundings more than the tortoise came about in accordance to His plan.
Quote:
Pythagoras
Pythagoras of Samos (Greek: Πυθαγόρας; between 580 and 572 BC–between 500 and 490 BC) was an Ionian (Greek) philosopher[1] and founder of the religious movement called Pythagoreanism. He is often revered as a great mathematician, mystic and scientist; however some have questioned the scope of his contributions to mathematics or natural philosophy. [2] His name led him to be associated with Pythian Apollo; Aristippus explained his name by saying, "He spoke (agor-) the truth no less than did the Pythian (Pyth-)," and Iamblichus tells the story that the Pythia prophesied that his pregnant mother would give birth to a man supremely beautiful, wise, and of benefit to humankind. [3]
He is best known for the Pythagorean theorem which bears his name. Known as "the father of numbers," Pythagoras made influential contributions to philosophy and religious teaching in the late 6th century BC. Because legend and obfuscation cloud his work even more than with the other pre-Socratics, one can say little with confidence about his life and teachings. We do know that Pythagoras and his students believed that everything was related to mathematics and that numbers were the ultimate reality and, through mathematics, everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles. According to Iamblichus, Pythagoras once said that "number is the ruler of forms and ideas and the cause of gods and demons."
He was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom. Many of the accomplishments of Plato, Aristotle and Copernicus were based on the ideas of Pythagoras. Unfortunately, very little is known about Pythagoras because none of his writings have survived. Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors.
From Wikipedia
Again since you said this, I have noticed '5' being prominent in the poem, but in this stanza, I think Lawrence is pointing out important numbers found in Revelations/Apogalypse:Quote:
The other thing I noticed you two noticed as well: the importance of numbers in this poem. For me the denomination that stood out was five, since the tortoise was described as a “five-folded complex-natured” creature. I think if you go through the poem and count the number of creatures that are mentioned, you get five. And if you look at the grooves that run throughout the tortoise shell, it is analogous to one river that feeds into a whole bunch of smaller streams which crisscross each other. The numbers “fives and tens/threes and fours and twelves” can be obtained, depending on which streams you select for the river to feed into, sectioning off the spaces(like the sections of the tortoise shell) in between the streams.
ktd, is there actually 5 creatures mentioned? I am fascinated with this thought. Your last statement about the river I don't quite understand in relation to the numbers, but I find it totally intriguing. There again, nature is set by a mathematical equation or pattern. This highly interests me.Quote:
Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven
Now you are talking in an engineering mind and I can only half grasp what you are saying. Again it does intrigue me. I think the 5 pin-point toes can be correlated to a human hand with 5 fingers. In this passage from Lawrence's book "Apogalypse" he writes:Quote:
Even more important than the number five is every fifth integer: five, ten, fifteen, etc. This fifth integer was described as the keystone at one point in the poem, which is a kind of lock that is used as support by keeping arches locked to each other; in another part of the poem the fifth integer is the “wedge-balancing head” needed to balance off the “four rowing limbs”. But in another part of the poem it is described as the “problematic thumb-piece” to the other “four pin-point toes”. What? I don’t get this because it goes contradictory to the stabilization factor of this fifth integer.
Also, note 4, 3, 2, 1 add up to 10. Half of 10 is 5 - prominent in the poem, since the cross divides the shell into halves and then halves again. 5 are the number of fingers/toes in humans. Lawrence is referring to the tortoise “four pin-point toes” and then "Four rowing limbs, and one wedge-balancing head" -could this correspond to human beings having - two hands/arms and two feet/legs and a head. This conjures up to me DiVinci's image of a man set in a Pentagon. This being the perfect mathematical and balanced image of man. I too wonder why L is calling the thumb-piece problematical. What exactly is the thumb-piece, do you know? Are the toes on a tortoise's foot 4 pointed and therefore devoid of a thumb as humans?Quote:
Chapter Twenty
The number ten is the natural number of a series. 'It is by nature that the Hellenes count up to ten and then start over again.' It is of course the number of the fingers of the two hands. This repetition of five observed throughout nature was one of the things that led the Pythagoreans to assert that 'all things are number'. In the Apocalypse, ten is the 'natural' or complete number of a series. The Pythagoreans, experimenting with pebbles, found that ten pebbles could be laid out in a triangle of 4 + 3 + 2 + I: and this sent their minds off in imagination.
In my next post, I will quote some more references from "Apogalyse" about numerology. This might throw more light on the significance of the creatures and the number significance, as well.
http://www.fishtaxidermist.com/turtleshells.jpg
I thought I’d share this. I think I can identify most of the numbers he mentioned in the poem. When I say groove, I’m referring to the yellow line moving up/down and right/left of the segment(which are the colored-in geometric structures) on the back of these tortoise shells.
Note the segments straight down the middle. To either right or left of the middle are colored segments which do like lobster’s or bee’s segments. If you look at the segments from a lateral view the segments do look like a bridge.Quote:
Along the back of the baby tortoise
The scales are locked in an arch like a bridge,
Scale-lapping, like a lobster's sections
Or a bee's.
The grooves which are horizontal to the vertical segments, these grooves do move in a “crossways” fashion, and do look like stripes or bands.Quote:
Then crossways down his sides
Tiger-stripes and wasp-bands.
If you count the segments inside the “twenty-five little ones” around the edge of the tortoise shell, not counting the three segments that are positioned vertically down the middle of the tortoise shell, you will count ten segments. If you move in a circular motion and count up the segments you will get five, and then keep moving around in until you complete the circle and you will get another five segments. I hope that is what he means by “five, and five again”.Quote:
Five, and five again,
And round the edges twenty-five little ones,
The sections of the baby tortoise shell.
On the back of the shell, the segments that are in the middle moving vertically upward(imagine the top segment as the keystone), then if you count the segments on each side and in the middle, vertically upward until you reach the keystone, you will count four segments each.Quote:
Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Then twenty-four, and a tiny little keystone.
I can’t tell you what he is referring to when he mentions “fives, and tens,/threes and fours and twelves”, but I can tell you where he possible saw the “pinnacle of seven” on this tortoise’s shell. If you take all the segments running down the middle of this tortoise shell and count, you get five segments; then go crosswise , say, at between the top segment and segment right below and count, you get another two segments. So the total is seven segments which forms a cross.Quote:
Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven.
You can identify the cleavages underneath this tortoise shell as well, by counting segments in this way.
That is great work KTD!!! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up Two thumbs up. A picture says it all. So do you think he's just putting into words the natural reality, or do you think there is some numerology (i.e. mystic) meaning to it all?
ktd, thanks for all the mathematical explanations and the photos. I will read what you have written a few times more and correlate with the photos. I also found some photos to post last night but it was too late, now you have beat me to it. Strangely enough your shells are more patterned than mine I found on the net, and they do remind me of the other creatures mentioned. I found plainer shelled ones, but the lobster in the center stands out espeically (it was the first thing I thought of when finding these photos) Their center shells overlap each other like scales. Your tortoises seems to have smooth shells - very beautiful they are, by the way! I will post the photo at the end of my post.
First, has anyone read my terribly long post? Sorry it was a lot to read. I was trying to get to a few points, but I may have overstated my idea by posting too much text. Here is the essense of it which I think answers Virgil's last question.
Quote:
I think the animal, insect images are referring to set patterns in nature such as 'wasp-bands', 'tiger-stripes'. These all have a formula and a predestined pattern based on numbers/shapes in nature. Here are some references I have come up with from my readings about patterns in nature:
This site on patterning, hope this is the right link -
http://www.scottcamazine.com/personal/DesignNature/
Also, the references to the pentagon shape are interesting and incorporate the idea of the number 5. If you take a pentagon and connect the points you will come up with a star pattern or the pentagram.
Pythagoras was considered the 'Father of Mathematics'. The pentagon and the pentagram play into this scheme in that prominent are the 5 points and the number 5 which makes up parts of the scheme. There are many ideas associated with the number 5 and 7 as you have pointed out ktd. Pentagons are part of a bees honeycomb, also a set pattern in the universe.Quote:
I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important.
I think Lawrence is seeing in this tortoise's shell a mathematical formula that corresponds to all creation, man included. We have so many teeth, 2 feet, 2 hands, two lungs, one heart, etc. The outer shell of the tortoise only displays all of the patterns of creation and the physical world. The bee has a set pattern of stripes, the tiger as well; beetles have a shell, not so unlike the protective shell of the tortoise. Lobsters have a shell with a set number of segments. Man can stand and extend his arms and legs and head and be contained within a circle, these are set proportions in nature. (interesting since Lawrence believed as the ancients that time ran in a circular fashion and not a straight line.)
I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe.
I did read it Janine and found it helpful. I think your comment here is right on. I agree Lawrence is trying to interconnect all of creation and yet the tortoise is an animal with a will. I think the cross is the symbol that separates the tortoise from the heavens. It doesn't seem to be within the numerical context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, thanks for reading my posts. I think the cross is significant - why else would he begin the poem with it? Also he repeats the idea throughout the poem. Do you think it is a reference to Christ or to something more Lawrencian - more universal? I would be interested to hear more of your theory on the idea of the cross. Interesting that it is made up of the number 7 as ktd points out since 7 is very prominent throughout the bible and history. The numbers have to mean something, have some direct significance, don't you think?
Here is a link to some more tortoise photos - these are much different than what ktd posted. Maybe these are the common garden variety :lol:
This might come out huge, I tried to reduce them with no luck in the photo program - sorry if it is a large photo.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...toiseShell.jpg
Janine,
I will try and reply to your posts in the next couple of days. I'm working full shift for Thursday and Friday, so I will be too tired to give your posts proper attention. :)
ktd, no problem at all. How sweet and considerate you are to post this to let me know. I would like to take a little 'brain' break myself. Do take your time, and get back to me on my posts... eventually, when you are better able take a breather from work. I fully understand. Hope work goes well for you. We all have 'real' lives outside of Lit Net. I went out all afternoon and quite enjoyed my real life today - no thought of tortoises!;) :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.
Virgil, this is good information; thanks for digging it up. :thumbs_up I was wondering when they were written. In my book I have all of them. When ktd first asked about "Baby Tortoise" I looked it up and saw there were more of them to my initial surprise. Interesting they were first published in their own book or volume. I knew about the series "Birds, Beasts and Flowers". It makes sense they were later incorporated into this collection. Are we then, doing them in the right order? This one speaks of the tortoise as being a baby T, as well. I think it was next in my book and it is second in your list. I will check my book. I read part of "Tortoise Family Connections". I think that one is quite long. This is so interesting that it goes from birth to adulthood to death. Lawrence would think in this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Glad to have started this thread - it is a good one and so are the discussions so far. I had never read this series of poems before now. I think they are marvelous.
Have you ever participated in a discussion, left the discussion for a while, and when you came back everything said seems so confusing? That’s how I feel right now.
Thanks Virgil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Janine stated it well:
I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe.
I read the link. As I said in my first post this poem seems to dismiss the theory of evolution in favor of a divine plan; so I’m kind of skeptical about the theories given by these scientists, since the patterns we see seem preordained by a divine power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I like what you said about these creatures which are mentioned following a predestined numbering system; it goes well with the numbering system that is emerging from the description of the tortoise shell and tortoise itself.
Yes…about the “mentioning of pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same.” But even one step further…to say that the patterns provided on the tortoise’s shell was seared right into the marrow of this tortoise.
Yes, those “two-fold” notes are significant. I would like to here more of the mythical significance of these creatures though.Quote:
I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important. Here is a brief history on Pythagoras (I underlined key phrases, words that might pertain to the ideas we are discussing in reference to the poem):
Again since you said this, I have noticed '5' being prominent in the poem, but in this stanza, I think Lawrence is pointing out important numbers found in Revelations/Apogalypse:
What’s interesting about this stanza is the reference of the tortoise shell as the “first eternal mathematical tablet,” which can be construed as every other mathematical pattern we see emerging (however complex) in other species derives from the original patterns we see on the tortoise shell.
I was thinking about five as being the important denomination/factor on this tortoise shell and its possible connection to these other numbers(threes and fours and twelves; seven)…and I wonder if the cross shape on the tortoise shell is the “glue” which makes the pattern we see possible; it’s a theory.
Yes, he did mention five creatures:Quote:
ktd, is there actually 5 creatures mentioned?
“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”
Yeah, it just seemed that whenever the tortoise was described, there was extra emphasis on the fifth segment, or twenty-fifth segment, or the fifth toe, or fifth limb.Quote:
Now you are talking in an engineering mind and I can only half grasp what you are saying. Again it does intrigue me. I think the 5 pin-point toes can be correlated to a human hand with 5 fingers. In this passage from Lawrence's book "Apogalypse" he writes:
Also, note 4, 3, 2, 1 add up to 10. Half of 10 is 5 - prominent in the poem, since the cross divides the shell into halves and then halves again. 5 are the number of fingers/toes in humans. Lawrence is referring to the tortoise “four pin-point toes” and then "Four rowing limbs, and one wedge-balancing head" -could this correspond to human beings having - two hands/arms and two feet/legs and a head. This conjures up to me DiVinci's image of a man set in a Pentagon. This being the perfect mathematical and balanced image of man. I too wonder why L is calling the thumb-piece problematical. What exactly is the thumb-piece, do you know? Are the toes on a tortoise's foot 4 pointed and therefore devoid of a thumb as humans?
I wish “threes and fours and twelves” added up to ten; then the first part of that one stanza would fit perfectly; but other than this little bit, you make a good connection between humans and tortoises.
As for the “thumb-piece,” I really don’t know. Do tortoises have a need for this “thumb-piece”? Doesn’t a “thumb-piece” mean just a piece of a thumb?
ktd, so sorry....Yeah, someone just popped into the "Women in Love"/last month's book and said they nearly finished up their reading, then commented 'how am I suppose to read through 16 pgs of postings?' I had to sympathise. I went back to try to find what she was referring to specifically in a question to the forum and I felt totally lost; and many of those postings I had done myself! I can imagine that you were confused, but glad to see you took one thing at a time and commented on them accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Quote:
Janine stated it well:
"I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe."
I read the link. As I said in my first post this poem seems to dismiss the theory of evolution in favor of a divine plan; so I’m kind of skeptical about the theories given by these scientists, since the patterns we see seem preordained by a divine power.
I like what you said about these creatures which are mentioned following a predestined numbering system; it goes well with the numbering system that is emerging from the description of the tortoise shell and tortoise itself.
Yes…about the “mentioning of pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same.” But even one step further…to say that the patterns provided on the tortoise’s shell was seared right into the marrow of this tortoise.
Glad you agree with these ideas. They are Lawrence's of course, but I do believe the universe is ordered and runs by a system. I don't know if this eliminated the whole idea of 'evolution', since L was very aware of Darwin's studies on the subject. Lawrence did feel the connectiveness of all creation. I think in the final line of this poem, I can now see the entire theme of the poem in these lines:
Here we see the connection summed up - the small creature to the larger whole of all creation. Lawrence believed in the connection of the individual with the collective in all of life.Quote:
The complex, manifold involvedness of an individual creature
Plotted out
On this small bird, this rudiment,
This little dome, this pediment
Of all creation,
This slow one.
I know, I have been trying to figure that out, because in his "Apogalypse" book he does point out many mythological creatures and their significance. I can see the bee's connectiveness to the poem's ideas with the hive and the honeycomb, which is made up of penagons and all make a 'collective whole'. Does this not mimic the idea of small parts/beings making up a universal whole? The individual bee works separately, but for the collective good and the queen who is the ruler. Other than the patterns on the bodies of the other creatures I am not sure of their significance. I know beetles do have significance in ancient lore, beetles or the scarab are found throughout Egyptian civilization and have great significance. Let me look up all the animals/creatures and see if I can come up with something else.Quote:
Yes, those “two-fold” notes are significant. I would like to here more of the mythical significance of these creatures though.
“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”
I was also thinking that lobsters are sea creatures - water, bees are air, tigers are land, and beetle are insects (fire?). I had the vague thought about the 4 elements: fire, earth, air, water. These 4 are mentioned in the "Apogalypse" and also Revelations and astrology. Maybe one represents the idea of fire. I am not sure - could the beetle? Fireflies are a kind of beetle right?
I do agree fully.Quote:
What’s interesting about this stanza is the reference of the tortoise shell as the “first eternal mathematical tablet,” which can be construed as every other mathematical pattern we see emerging (however complex) in other species derives from the original patterns we see on the tortoise shell.
I don't know exactly. Perhaps. It is an interesting theory. I read recently that Lawrence stated that sometimes an image will just suggest to us things ingrained in our subconscious. I would think this image of a cross, as soon as he says it in the first lines, brings to mind religious connotations and significance. What that means to Lawrence I am not quite sure. I am still pondering that part. But the fact that he does repeat cross so often, makes me long to know the full significance of the word in the way he is using it here.Quote:
I was thinking about five as being the important denomination/factor on this tortoise shell and its possible connection to these other numbers(threes and fours and twelves; seven)…and I wonder if the cross shape on the tortoise shell is the “glue” which makes the pattern we see possible; it’s a theory.
I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to? To note: I like your tortoise better than mine I posted; their shells are extraordinaryly beautiful! I only posted mine thinking they were plainer, perhaps the garden variety; also the fact that the shells seem to overlap, as Lawrence indicated in the poem. I thought particularly the lobster part stood out; when I first found the photo, I saw that right away. I don't know much about Tortoises or where they live or what varieties there are, do you? Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil? :lol:
This part with the thumb-piece has me puzzled, too. I have to think more closely on the idea. Another idea on the cross - it is a division of the whole into 4 parts - perhaps symbolising the elements which the animals represent. I do feel the whole poem mimics the 'formula' of the 'universal pattern idea' of the poem - the orderly way the universe is predestined, or designed by pattern and by mathematical significance.Quote:
Yeah, it just seemed that whenever the tortoise was described, there was extra emphasis on the fifth segment, or twenty-fifth segment, or the fifth toe, or fifth limb.
I wish “threes and fours and twelves” added up to ten; then the first part of that one stanza would fit perfectly; but other than this little bit, you make a good connection between humans and tortoises.
As for the “thumb-piece,” I really don’t know. Do tortoises have a need for this “thumb-piece”? Doesn’t a “thumb-piece” mean just a piece of a thumb?
The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three times four is twelve. Two times 5 is 10, two halves of a whole. Then divide again, as in the cross and you have 4 parts. Maybe you can get a copy from your library of his "Apogalypse" or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:( The book may be strange, as Virgil said, but it is fascinating. Just the 'numerology' part had me captivated.
Wow, ktd and Janine - Those two last posts of your are excellent. Kudos.
I agree with all, that the pattern is emblematic for the universal order and connected to its system. I don't think, ktd, that it means that Lawrence doesn't believe in Darwin. I don't know whether he does or doesn't, but evolution could have been a means of the universe's system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I would say the top "stone" of the shell pattern is the keystone for each stripe. So for each stripe across there is a keystone. I could be wrong.Quote:
I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to?
Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil...:lol:
Are Italian tortoises any different than others? :lol: Well, we Italians are different. ;)
This is true, the cross divides into four quadrants. But I have read elsewhere (I believe in Twilight In Italy, look in "The Crucifix Across The Mountains") that Lawrence sees a cross as splitting things into two. The cross beam divides the pole into two. Divides the crucified into an upper half and lower. Perhaps he simultaneously means both divide into two and four. :idea:Quote:
This part with the thumb-piece has me puzzled, too. I have to think more closely on the idea. Another idea on the cross - it is a division of the whole into 4 parts - perhaps symbolising the elements which the animals represent. I do feel the whole poem mimics the 'formula' of the 'universal pattern idea' of the poem - the orderly way the universe is predestined, or designed by pattern and by mathematical significance.
I should be lucky to have a copy. I have a paperback, put out Penguin, last published in 1976. Price on the book says $7.95. Oh and Janine, it is spelled "Apocalypse" not "Apogalypse." Why are you spelling it such?Quote:
The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three time four is twelve. Maybe you can get a copy from your library or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:(
So what did you think - we were just "pretty faces?" :lol: Thanks for you compliments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
ktd really got me started on my post. Good points, ktd! simulated me to think harder; now my poor brain aches.:eek2:
Agreed.Quote:
I agree with all, that the pattern is emblematic for the universal order and connected to its system. I don't think, ktd, that it means that Lawrence doesn't believe in Darwin. I don't know whether he does or doesn't, but evolution could have been a means of the universe's system.
Virgil,I will have to check out the photos again. I just could not see it. Maybe now I will. What do you consider the stripes anyway? Also what exactly does a keystone mean. I meant to look that one up. You would think I would know it being an artist and studied architecture. My brain is snoozing right now.Quote:
I would say the top "stone" of the shell pattern is the keystone for each stripe. So for each stripe across there is a keystone. I could be wrong.
Yeah, different - that is for sure! Don't we know that. Well, perhaps you're more connected to the universe than we are. ;) or in outerspace :lol: Take your pick!Quote:
Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil...:lol:
Are Italian tortoises any different than others? :lol: Well, we Italians are different. ;)
Yes, I read this also in "Twilight in Italy." in fact as I was writing this part of my post, I was thinking about Lawrence's trek through those mountains and all the crosses. When did he write TII? I will have to go look it up. Maybe he had crosses on the brain then. That is right - he did see them splitting in two halves. Well, that would mimic parts of the poem with the divisions he makes. Two divisions would be 4 - correct.Quote:
This is true, the cross divides into four quadrants. But I have read elsewhere (I believe in Twilight In Italy, look in "The Crucifix Across The Mountains") that Lawrence sees a cross as splitting things into two. The cross beam divides the pole into two. Divides the crucified into an upper half and lower. Perhaps he simultaneously means both divide into two and four. :idea:
You are lucky. It sells with other writings, used, for about $30. Forget it; I will copy it.Quote:
I should be lucky to have a copy. I have a paperback, put out Penguin, last published in 1976. Price on the book says $7.95. Oh and Janine, it is spelled "Apocalypse" not "Apogalypse." Why are you spelling it such?
Why am I spelling it wrong? Answer is: several reasons - I can't spell worth a darn and I glanced at the book and can't see worth a darn, either (called old age and bifocals!):lol:
...Ugh:( ...now I will have to go back and correct all those spellings, or I will look like a total dunce to everyone.
That’s great information Virgil! It really puts the two tortoise poems we read into context. So now that we’ve got a good look at this baby tortoise I wonder what will come next? It is pretty unfathomable to think of framing the progression of my poems before writing them. I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg? No, I’m just kidding…I wonder if Lawrence had the progression worked out before writing these poems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
No, the only difference is the turtles in the picture I posted had been butchered, cleaned, and waxedQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Interesting question - which came first his framing, conception, or the poems? humm... Knowing L's work and the way he worked, he probably worked them out together somehow or envisioned them first or rewrote until they took on the stages of life. What a novel concept to envision and then write in this manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Yes, it should be interesting to see the next poem. I have it copied and ready to post when we finish up this one.Quote:
No, the only difference is the turtles in the picture I posted had been butchered, cleaned, and waxed
ouuu...that is sad. I thought your turtles were alive. *Duh, then where are the heads, tails, feet, Janine?* Of course, I am a hypocrite since I do love snapper soup, but those snappers are mean and rather ugly. Hard to believe these guys in your photo once looked like mine, after the whole preserving process. I don't detect any overlapping in the shells, though. I imagine the patterns on the shells would come out when wet, like in seashells. Interesting.
Yes, you’d divulged to me this little nugget of truth regarding Lawrence and evolution a month or two ago;:nod: but gosh, it is so hard for me to see evolution and a “planned” process coexisting in this poem. I’ll make an effort for you and Virgil though.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think Virgil recognized the importance of this last stanza in identifying the theme of this poem first. So thank you Virgil. But you have summed it up beautifully, Janine.
I will try and expand on your comments. Look at the word “manifold.” In the context of this stanza the word “manifold” is not defined, that is there’s no number identifying a degree of complexity involved in creating an individual creature. Now, just two stanzas before is a line that read “through his five-fold complex-nature.” Here we are told the exact degree of what made this tortoise. And throughout the poem we are given mathematical hints, a coefficient factor of sorts, as to how life in this world varies. However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!! In the beginning was the equation, something containable we can write out, seemingly rigid, to define the way in which all organisms arise; but the equation does not have one single answer, or two or three. The application of this equation results in that which is uncontainable, because it produces limitless answers.
Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?Quote:
I don't know exactly. Perhaps. It is an interesting theory. I read recently that Lawrence stated that sometimes an image will just suggest to us things ingrained in our subconscious. I would think this image of a cross, as soon as he says it in the first lines, brings to mind religious connotations and significance. What that means to Lawrence I am not quite sure. I am still pondering that part. But the fact that he does repeat cross so often, makes me long to know the full significance of the word in the way he is using it here.
I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to?
I think Virgil said it, so I would like to reiterate that the keystone is the segment at which the arch formed by segments divides into halves. It is also worth noting that the keystone, as defined online is a wedge-shaped piece, similarly as the tortoise head is described as a “wedge-balancing head.”
This would have made sense if he said “threes and fours is twelves…” or something to that affect.Quote:
The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three times four is twelve.
This part I can grasp. No thank you, about the book. But I would like to hear what you thought about it when you’re done reading it.:blush: :D Send me a PM. Sorry, I’m just being lazy.Quote:
Two times 5 is 10, two halves of a whole. Then divide again, as in the cross and you have 4 parts. Maybe you can get a copy from your library of his "Apogalypse" or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:( The book may be strange, as Virgil said, but it is fascinating. Just the 'numerology' part had me captivated.
Good post ktd! You have me thinking on a number of things. I will answer tomorrow, unless Virgil beats me to it. I will add something anyway, even if he does post first. I have to think about several things you wrote; I am too tired now to write anymore on Lit Net.
Good news is that today I found a copy of "Apocalypse" on Amazon at a reasonable price and ordered it, so now I don't have to scan the whole book. Yeah!
I am trying to track down other books I need for research, etc. I also found the entire text for "Kangaroo" online, Virgil. Is that fortunate or what? And the file is downloadable and free so I was thrilled to find it.
You had a good day then Janine. :thumbs_up I'll still look for a traditional text of Kangaroo for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Athough I did not sleep well last night, I don't feel as badly as yesterday - very odd....and I should definitely be in bed by now, don't you think?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Anyway, I was researching Lawrence online and dug up so many interesting things like great pictures and an article about his ranch and Mabel Dodge Luhan's house - all kinds of wonderful photos....all in living color. I was stunned by the scenery. I have to post some somewhere or the address of the site. I also found tons of other stuff by just being patient and wading through a lot of material.
I found another short book I wanted, not Lawrence. I also found some good commentary on L's poems, stories, etc. Yikes, I did not realise there is so much online about Lawrence. Glad I found out there is such extensive interest.
Virgil, thanks for looking for "Kangaroo" anyway in book form. Would be great if you find it. I am trying to get a good price on "Mornings in New Mexico" but so far I have not seen a good seller but one will pop up eventually; I keep it in my wish list on Amazon. Just trying to acquire the books I have not read yet.
Well, sorry ktd, to get off the beaten path here but I will be back tomorrow to post something in answer to your great post on "Tortoise Shell."
ktd, too tired out now. I will have to delay till I can get to your posts - soon - I promise. Sorry, J
My post must be so brilliant that it is leaving people speechless:lol:
Perhaps it's time for the next poem if we are going to study the series.
Quote:
My post must be so brilliant that it is leaving people speechless
:lol: ktd, it is not that...not 'speechless', just 'timeless'. Your post certainly is 'brilliant', but I just have had no time to get back to this thread. I have been feeling guilty about making you wait so long, but I put it top of my long list today - truly I did....also, now... since, as Virgil said:
...and I surely agree. In fact, I just pulled up my Microsoft Word file with the poem copied in it, so I can post it right after I address this 'brilliant' post of yours ktd! So here goes:Quote:
Perhaps it's time for the next poem if we are going to study the series.
I like the way you call it a 'nugget of truth'. That is good ktd; I think I probably have a few nuggets rattling around in my skull about L by now!;) I don't think, that one has to eliminate the whole idea of 'evolution' to accept that the universe is ordered and patterned. One only needs to see the patterns on such things as butterflies, tortoises, turtles, snakes, sea-life to acknowledge this patterning and orderliness. I would therefore conclude that all of nature (and Lawrence was a great observer of nature and plants and botany, etc.) falls into a kind of order, and therefore he felt it all co-existed and was part of a universal plan. Does the theory of evolution eliminate this idea? I don't feel it does, but maybe you would disagree on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
So be it-- Virgil can have all the credit.;) Thanks for your compliment on my summing it up beautifully. I might have had a moment of 'brilliance' myself that day.:)Quote:
I think Virgil recognized the importance of this last stanza in identifying the theme of this poem first. So thank you Virgil. But you have summed it up beautifully, Janine.
Quote:
I will try and expand on your comments. Look at the word “manifold.” In the context of this stanza the word “manifold” is not defined, that is there’s no number identifying a degree of complexity involved in creating an individual creature. Now, just two stanzas before is a line that read “through his five-fold complex-nature.” Here we are told the exact degree of what made this tortoise. And throughout the poem we are given mathematical hints, a coefficient factor of sorts, as to how life in this world varies. However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!! In the beginning was the equation, something containable we can write out, seemingly rigid, to define the way in which all organisms arise; but the equation does not have one single answer, or two or three. The application of this equation results in that which is uncontainable, because it produces limitless answers.
ktd, not sure this is not just Lawrence's concept of the ordered universe but of course he probably knew more about nature than I do and he apparently studied these equations and number references. So when you say: 'However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!!' do you feel that is Lawrence's concept or actually the truth? I think Lawrence was pretty amazing
Yes, he does say "The Lord" and I am not sure at this point in Lawrence's life what his concept of 'The Lord' would be; for this seemed to change over time for him personally. The cross is very reminescent, as Virgil already stated, of the time L spent in Italy and wrote about it in his travel books. There were many crosses mentioned there up on the mountain roads. Not sure of your last question but think it is a good concept and one to consider.Quote:
Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?
That is a good explanation and I like the idea or correlation of the tortoise head to the keystone shape, in your last statement here. Very good analysis!:thumbs_upQuote:
I think Virgil said it, so I would like to reiterate that the keystone is the segment at which the arch formed by segments divides into halves. It is also worth noting that the keystone, as defined online is a wedge-shaped piece, similarly as the tortoise head is described as a “wedge-balancing head.”
Well, this actually is right from his "Apocalypse book", so he must know what it means. As manolia always tells me we might not be able to figure it all out. Only by asking L himself or studying with scholars for years could we come close I suppose. I do think this numbering system ties in with the Apocalypse in the Bible and Revelations.Quote:
This would have made sense if he said “threes and fours is twelves…” or something to that affect.
That is ok, you can be lazy, ktd. I have the urge myself to be lazy now -- I am kind of burned out from last month and so much activity. Thought this month would be easier but it is active too. Maybe next month on here I will take a long overdue break. I ordered the book online the other day so I don't need to copy/scan it. Glad you could grasp what I had written about it.Quote:
This part I can grasp. No thank you, about the book. But I would like to hear what you thought about it when you’re done reading it.:blush: :D Send me a PM. Sorry, I’m just being lazy.
Here is the next Tortoise poem. It is a longer one and called:
TORTOISE FAMILY CONNECTIONS
by: D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930)
ON he goes, the little one,
Bud of the universe,
Pediment of life.
Setting off somewhere, apparently.
Whither away, brisk egg?
His mother deposited him on the soil as if he were no more than droppings,
And now he scuffles tinily past her as if she were an old rusty tin.
A mere obstacle,
He veers round the slow great mound of her--
Tortoises always foresee obstacles.
It is no use my saying to him in an emotional voice:
"This is your Mother, she laid you when you were an egg."
He does not even trouble to answer: "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"
He wearily looks the other way,
And she even more wearily looks another way still,
Each with the utmost apathy,
Incognizant,
Unaware,
Nothing.
As for papa,
He snaps when I offer him his offspring,
Just as he snaps when I poke a bit of stick at him,
Because he is irascible this morning, an irascible tortoise
Being touched with love, and devoid of fatherliness.
Father and mother,
And three little brothers,
And all rambling aimless, like little perambulating pebbles scattered in the garden,
Not knowing each other from bits of earth or old tins.
Except that papa and mama are old acquaintances, of course,
But family feeling there is none, not even the beginnings.
Fatherless, motherless, brotherless, sisterless
Little tortoise.
Row on then, small pebble,
Over the clods of the autumn, wind-chilled sunshine,
Young gayety.
Does he look for a companion?
No, no, don't think it.
He doesn't know he is alone;
Isolation is his birthright,
This atom.
To row forward, and reach himself tall on spiny toes,
To travel, to burrow into a little loose earth, afraid of the night,
To crop a little substance,
To move, and to be quite sure that he is moving:
Basta!
To be a tortoise!
Think of it, in a garden of inert clods
A brisk, brindled little tortoise, all to himself--
Crœsus!
In a garden of pebbles and insects,
Slow, and unquestioned,
And inordinately there, O stoic!
Wandering in the slow triumph of his own existence,
Ringing the soundless bell of his presence in chaos,
And biting the frail grass arrogantly,
Decidedly arrogantly.
"Tortoise Family Connections" is reprinted from Tortoises. D.H. Lawrence. New York: Thomas Seltzer, 1921
ktd, I know by just looking at those references in this poem, you might be led to think that Lawrence was a traditional Christian, but he was not. He evolved to be quite paganesk. As Janine can tell you from reading Apocalypse, he believed that myths had an incredible power over people and influenced their subconscious. He felt that the Christ myth which had taken over the western world was incomplete and actually deleterious to society. In one of his last works of fiction, perhpas it was the last, he wrote The Man Who Died, a short novel rewriting the Christ resurrection story and marrying it to the Osirus/Isis myth. It is a remarkable work and I highly recommend it. Here's a little something on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Escaped_****. They also give you a little of chapter one here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Died-D.../dp/0880014296Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Just to let people know, I will be going on vacation tomorrow and will not be home until the 28th. I don't think I will be able to post anything on the new poem until then.
I will have to check out that link, Virgil. Thanks! I did read 'The Man Who Died' long ago. I will have to re-read it soon; I am sure it will be with a new perspective on L and his ideas. I
don't know if L is actually agreeing with myths and other references in his "Apocalypse" book - we could have a whole debate just on that book! I think he is basically pointing out the flaws or the origins in the writing of Revelations and how it was altered over time by the church and others. He is saying that the work, which many Christians feel baffled about, yet will accept verbatim, is actually based on pagan origins and even numerology and astrological/astronomical calculations and mythical images. It is basically a huge 'pot of potpouri' in the final anaylsis and in the closing chapters of "Apocalypse", he is setting forth his own personal ideas/theology on the human race and the universe and what will come to be futuristically. In many ways, Lawrence was quite prophetic, as was his good friend, Audox Huxley. I don't think that "Apocalypse" is an easy book to interpret. I feel I need to read it again sometime soon. If nothing else, it is definitely intriguing.
Virgil, hi ....so you will be gone 10 days on vacation? How nice for you! I hope you have a great time!!! Don't even think about Lit Net, when you are away - just have fun! Relax.....enjoy the CA sun and scenery and chill out.
We won't get too ahead on this poem and you can pick it up easily when you get back....we move at a tortoise's pace.....:lol:
In this poem, yes, I’m favoring the role of a “planned” process over evolution. I think that the order we see developing in this poem has less to do evolution. The patterns that we do see in the poem arose from a preset equation set by The Lord. Seeing patterns is one thing, attributing it to the Lord rather than the affects of earthly situations is another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I feel this is Lawrence’s belief, and therefore is his truth. I don’t think it really matters whether this is an original concept or not, that is the concept conveyed in this poem. I don’t think it is the universal truth, but I still like the idea.Quote:
ktd, not sure this is not just Lawrence's concept of the ordered universe but of course he probably knew more about nature than I do and he apparently studied these equations and number references. So when you say: 'However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!!' do you feel that is Lawrence's concept or actually the truth? I think Lawrence was pretty amazing
There are other meanings with reference to Lord and the Cross? A poem should almost wholly be self-explanatory without needing one to do research on parts of the poem. I feel like I recognized what Lawrence was trying to achieve in that poem, and I’m satisfied with what I saw.Quote:
Yes, he does say "The Lord" and I am not sure at this point in Lawrence's life what his concept of 'The Lord' would be; for this seemed to change over time for him personally. The cross is very reminescent, as Virgil already stated, of the time L spent in Italy and wrote about it in his travel books. There were many crosses mentioned there up on the mountain roads. Not sure of your last question but think it is a good concept and one to consider.
I think this goes for almost every poem written, whether the author is established or not.Quote:
Well, this actually is right from his "Apocalypse book", so he must know what it means. As manolia always tells me we might not be able to figure it all out. Only by asking L himself or studying with scholars for years could we come close I suppose. I do think this numbering system ties in with the Apocalypse in the Bible and Revelations.
I’m going to take a break, Janine. Feel free to continue the discussion without me; don’t feel bad about do so. I’ll come back to the discussion soon…if you are still discussing them.
Hi ktd, let me say firstly, I need a break, too...I am feeling quite exhausted, even bug-eyed :eek: by now with all this computer work/ other active threads. So let us go slowly, at a 'tortoise's pace', as I said before.
We will consider this one a slow, mellow 'summer' discussion so pop in, when and IF you can. These poems are real mind benders, as all Lawrence's work is, so it gets quite exhausting. I have enjoyed all your insightful posts, so enjoy your break, you deserve it...you did a fine job!:thumbs_up
I will go slowly with this one and Virgil is on vacation, so let's just consider this our vacation, as well. I have not even read the poem yet. I merely posted it. If you miss this poem there are others but really we will do this one super slow so you might still be able to participate -- don't worry about it and have a nice, relaxing break!
I don't know that much about evolution and in fact I would like to read Darwin's book and may someday in the near future. Therefore I agree with what you say here. I think that if we over analysis the poem it will loose it's charm and loveliness. I think Lawrence merely observed the patterns and thought on them, pondering the idea of patterning in the universe and how all creatures and the world/universe are connected in this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
I feel this way, too; I do think it is a wonderful observation and an astounding idea!Quote:
I feel this is Lawrence’s belief, and therefore is his truth. I don’t think it really matters whether this is an original concept or not, that is the concept conveyed in this poem. I don’t think it is the universal truth, but I still like the idea.
Perhaps so but with Lawrence, when one knows things about his other philosophies/ideas it is hard to disregard them entirely. I think it is fine to take the poem as it is and for each person to interpret it in their own mind and personally, as to what it means to them. You are right in that a poem should stand alone and be self-explanatory. I think this poem very well does that, don't you? It is just that you must excuse Virgil and I since we have some prior knowledge of Lawrence's use of crosses and what they personally meant to him. Also the knowledge is in our minds of just how Lawrence interpreted religion. This poem may be early when Lawrence still believed in one supreme God. I do not know but the poem does seem to indicate that and whatever one wants to believe is perfectly correct and acceptable. This poem is meaningful to each person in a different way.Quote:
There are other meanings with reference to Lord and the Cross? A poem should almost wholly be self-explanatory without needing one to do research on parts of the poem. I feel like I recognized what Lawrence was trying to achieve in that poem, and I’m satisfied with what I saw.
I agree.Quote:
I think this goes for almost every poem written, whether the author is established or not.
Enjoy your break! :) ~ JanineQuote:
I’m going to take a break, Janine. Feel free to continue the discussion without me; don’t feel bad about do so. I’ll come back to the discussion soon…if you are still discussing them.
Thanks Janine.:) I can't imagine being part of so many discussions simultaneously. It has got to be difficult to keep up. I don't know how you do it. I really enjoyed your posts as well. It’s not too often I can get into a discussion about poetry and feel like others are putting in the same effort to analyze, and not just comment on the poem. I’ll still be around, but I’ll be trying to predict who’s next to post.:lol:
Hahaha! guess you were right! :lol:
Thanks, ktd, and it has been very difficult these past months! It is good to be appreciated and nice to have had a 'real' and lively discussion; not just a 'review' after someone reads the material, as to whether they 'like it' or 'dislike it'. Many times that seems to be the case. We are here to discuss and not to complain, don't you agree? One of my pet peeves, I am afraid. Anyway, enjoy the time off. Happy you suggested this thread; it is a good one. Since I had bought the book of "Collected Poems" it is a good start for me and I never considered his 'animal/reptile' poems so great and now I see so much more to them. Thanks for opening my eyes to them!
The discussion about the Tortoise poem is really wonderful! I'm hoping for more about D.H.Lawrence's animal poems. Thank you!
Eileen
On behalf of everyone who participated in this discussion, thank you Eileen. I hope to resume and complete the discussion on Lawrence's Tortoise poems. Perhaps shortly. Hopefully you can join us too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eileen wu