I'm on page 140.
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I'm on page 140.
It regards to the quote about the front of the cottage, I think it does describe Mary, even though she may not have intended that. Of course, it is raining, and I think she is describing a veranda with a black, dripping roof. What I noticed about that scene is the irony of the type of thoughts Anne is having despite the dreary weather. She is reminded of things "happy and gay, all that was glowing and bright in prosperous love," and it makes her sad to be leaving.
On the next page, I love what Anne feels about herself at the new attention she is receiving. I can SO relate! She hopes that she is being "blessed with a second spring of youth and beauty." Being admired by someone makes us all glow and become even more beautiful because it makes us radiate from the inside out!
Back-tracking to page 87... after Louisa's accident, Anne wonders about Wentworth "if it ever occurred to him now, to question the justness of his own previous opinion as to the universal felicity and advantage of firmness of character; and whether it might not strike him, that, like all other qualities of the mind, it should have its proportions and limits. She thought it could scarcely escape him to feel, that a persuadable temper might sometimes be as much in favour of happiness, as a very resolute character." The firmness she lacked that he wished for in Anne (page 64) turned out to be not the best thing for Louisa. Maybe this experience will change his opinion about being too firm, and he will see it as a negative trait in Louisa.
I am enjoying all the new attention Anne is getting. She may find she no longer thinks much about Wentworth. I think Benwick's shyness is a little unattractive. And I am hoping Mr. Elliot is interested in Anne, not Elizabeth.
I can't explain all the Charles'!!!!!!!
What exquisite observations and what excellent boiled potatoes!
I like what matters to you as you read! I have many things to discuss but it seems tough to know which! Benwick! What a surprising change in the plot! I do not know how it will develop but surely if the plot did not change then Wentworth would marry Louisa and that is not how we want it to be!
I also think that Mr.Elliott's interest in Anne is the right kind of motivation for Wentworth to pay attention to Anne. Anne is feeling a whole lot better about herself, her spring of youth, and it shows when Wentworth walks in and means to barely acknowledge Anne. Anne greets him and he immediately swerves to converse with her. Sir Walter and Elizabeth finally give the appropriate courtesies to Wentworth.
I understand how association and attention can make a person feel young and alive. It is human nature to feel that way. How much internal strength does it take to overcome human nature? Does nature control us or can we control it? All it takes is a little acknowledgement to put a person in the clouds. Anne is evidence of that.
I my life, I know that even the hint of an oasis, a mirage even, in a dessert is enough to fuel the well of energy and the youthful feelings associated with being IN love.
I fell in love with a girl once and now every single positive thing said or acknowledgement of emotional or physical attractiveness makes me feel like I'm on top of the world. Like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice.
I read something I liked about friendship yesterday: A true friend stands by through the changing seasons of life and cheers you on not for your successes but for staying true to what matters most. Karen Kingsbury, acknowlegements to her book "Found".
I'm on page 111, so I haven't read where Elizabeth and Sir Elliot meet Wentworth yet, (or did you mean Mr. Elliot?)
That is a lovely quote about friendship. I am passing through the seasons of life rather roughly, I think! I cherish those few true friends I have that stick with me!
Elizabeth Bennet is a complex character. I like her. Alot. Duh. Maybe we could read that together when we are finished picking apart Persuasion. Interested? I opened my copy of P and P yesterday and thought I needed to tell you about the passage I saw there before me. Now I can't recall. I dog-eared the page. I will look it up again and let you know.
I would love that. Tell me which copy you have and I will get the same!...
Anne waits for seven years in mental and physical solitude with no guarantee of anything. She has had men in her life--one who has proposed and another who recently is showing interest. Yet she remains true to herself. It does not matter whether she is in Kellynch, Bath, Lyme or Uppercross, she does not allow physical or emotional access.
I can truly identify with that!! It does not matter where I am or who I am with, my heart belongs to just one and I do not allow any other emotional or physical access or exploration. It's just how I am now. So whether I'm in the Northwest, the Far East, the Middle East or the high desert, I remain true to just one person. I like it that way. And even though I have hurt that person in the course of life, more than once, I will not back away. That person may, but I won't. There will be no "exploration", "bending" the rules, "covering" mistakes or "exploring" the new no matter where my travels take me. I won't be showing anyone or giving access to a dam thing.
So as I read this I am reminded that while others are in Anne's life, she is singularly focussed on the love of her life. That's how I am. :argue:
You made me smile and laugh-- A major feat for the mood I am in today. However, even I, a total stranger, know that people can't deliver everything they promise. After all, this is reality.
What little reading I've done today has been from page 111....
I am on page 124 now. I can't believe the developments! Benwick in love with Louisa?! Anne won't consider Mr. Elliot?! (although I can see why!) Where is Wentworth when we need him???!!!
On page 114. I see a sentence with the term "au fait" in it. There's a Corinne Bailey Rae song with those words, and I never understood it. Can anyone explain? In Persuasion, it seems to mean "being with it" or "in the know."
I love the paragraph about Mr. Elliott and Anne's opinion of him at the bottom of page 118 and top of 119. It relates to not caring for his temperament. I feel the same. I also prefer the "frank, open-hearted, the eager character beyond all others. Warmth and enthusiasm did captivate her still." I prefer people who have expressive emotions. Forget the bland, repressive and emotionless types. Give me something to grab hold of. I want the full gamut of emotions and expression!
I will read to pg 124 and repond to your thoughts today. If you read beyond that tell me! I'll look up Au Fait today!...
You are right! And I'm smarter now!
Adj. 1. au fait - being up to particular standard or level especially in being up to date in knowledge; "kept a breast of the latest developments"; "constant revision keeps the book au courant"; "always au fait on the latest events"; "up on the news"
Excellent! Good work!
Why thank you, Miss!!
I missed you before, but I'm back now! And so are you! I'm not finding any time to read today. Tonight will be better. Generally, I don't have time to read during the work day.
Understanding human nature has been an important part of the leadership skills and experience of my life both on and off the battlefield. Austen has a great but short summary at the top of 115.
''Here and there, human nature may be great in times of trial, but generally speaking it is in its weakness and not its strength that appears in a sick chamber; it is selfishness and impatience rather than generosity and fortitude, that one hears of.''
Then in the next sentence I find another one of those nuggets in life: ''There is so little real friendship in the world!--and unfortunately (speaking low and tremulously) there are so many who forget to think seriously till it is almost too late.''
What a big WOW! on all three accounts! Human nature being mostly foussed on the negative, rare real friendship (opposed to the many ''acquaintances'' we all have that we call friends) and the levity and silliness we see among most people all of the time.
Austen pegs three life issues in one paragraph that are still present 200 years later. DO NOT expect them to change across the board. It requires individual enlightenment and wisdom and maturity to transcend these conditions. When people are comfortable, they seldom appreciate anything. Consider this: Why don't you count the number of homeless people asking for help on a sign at an intersection who have written ''God Bless'' on their piece of cardboard.
Mrs. Smith, who was speaking to Anne, goes on to make me laugh at her own understanding of how people opperate when she makes fun of Mrs. Wallis, a mere pretty, silly, expensive, fashionable woman who will have nothing to report but of lace and finery, by stating that she will make her profit by selling all her high-priced things she has recently made.
Miss Bennet, I have read your comments about Mr. Elliot's temperment. I agree! Now tell me, Miss Elizabeth Bennet, if you did not notice the last sentence of that paragraph and tell me if you did not identify again with Anne beyond her initial explanation of temperment: ''She felt that she could so much more depend upon the sincerity of those who sometimes looked or said a careless or a hasty thing, than of those whose presence of mind never varied, whose tongue never slipped.''!
Carriages are important. And the kind of carriage is important too. I'm going to start tracking the kinds listed in the book. On page 128 a barouche is mentioned. Here's what I've learned about the barouche: -a four-wheel fancy carriage with a fold-up hood at the back and with two inside seats facing each other. It was the fancy carriage of the first half of the 19th century.
In P&P Mr Collins mentions Lady Catherine's tiny phaeton and ponies: A light four-wheel carriage with open sides and drawn by one or two horses.
I'm at the top of 130. The reread from 111 to 124 was wonderful and I had a lot of thoughts and lots of notes in the margin. Here's one of them on Mary's letter to Anne:
Mary is SO negative in the original letter. I underlined 21 negative comments. I find Jane Austen using this letter from Mary to underscore the weakness, selfishness and impatience of Human Nature described on P115.
In her continuation, Mary's tone changes the instant there is anything exciting to report, especially if it involves love!
Another is how snotty Sir Walter is about Admiral Croft on 122. The 2nd and 3rd paragraph's of 124 make me laugh as Croft settles the matter. The Croft's could care less about Walter Elliot while Walter thinks they do and Walter talks and thinks of them way more than they do of him!!
Anyway, the quiz: On page 127, Admiral Croft speaks of James Benwick and uses the word piano to describe him. What does it mean and what is the origin of the word? You have 5 minutes from now and must answer in a minimum of 5 paragraphs!...
I think piano means he is too soft or quiet.
I think you misunderstand Mrs. Smith's discussion about human nature on p. 115. I think she is talking about what human nature is for people who are sick and recovering or always bed-ridden. People in that situation are usually not strong and generous. They are selfish and impatient. They want to get better, and all they can focus on is themselves and their discomforts. One reason Anne likes Mrs. Smith is that she does not seem thus affected by her condition and remains positive and interested in what is going on in the world around her--being "au fait."
Yes, I noticed that last sentence of the paragraph on page 119 and purposely did not include it. I don't think she means that it is okay to be careless about saying things that hurt people. I think she is referring to giving opinions about this or that and not hiding your true thoughts on things. Instead of "The food is perfect!", she trusts "I don't care for these potatoes!" She means that she trusts the opinions more of people who are not always saying just the right thing or always making the perfect compliment. She trusts people who come right out and give their real opinion. I guess I should have included it so that I could be sure to explain it!
Correct on piano! It's Italian in origin and is used extensively in music for expression and dynamics.
Oh! on the rest of your explanation!:blush:
I am on page 136. When I have time, I want to discuss the middle of page 135 where he stops, Anne blushes, and then he clears his throat and continues.
I've gone back to the top of 115 on human nature and I need to add some thoughts. While, yes, Mrs Smith seems to be referring to people who are sick, it doesn't change the fact that people who are not sick still act the same way. Look at the news! There is little positive in the news. That's why I'm no longer au fait with the news. I have come to ask myself this question regarding the news: ''So what? And just how is this information truly useful to me?'' There is little useful information. Tell me how my taxes will be impacted, what is the construction that will affect mobility around the city, what accidents are slowing the morning commute and how should I avoid them? for example. Other than that, build me up!
Mrs. Smith is a perfect model in my eyes of seeing beyond current circumstances and capturing life in a way that suits her. She is happy despite the poor hand that she has been dealt. I had a battalion commander say to me before we crossed the border into Iraq, ''In the course of this fight you may be dealt a 2 and a 3. Play those cards hard because it may be all you'll get for a while''. Now that's a HUGE nugget in the waters of life!! Mrs. Smith plays her 2 and 3 hard.
I encourage all to rise up in the clouded moments of life, view the destination--the objective--and get their bearings.
There is One True North and there is a star in the sky that will guide you if you look at it and follow it.
I understand your position on the careless or hasty comment. You are referring to that which hurts a person. I do not think telling it like it is is what she is referring to. I think it's saying what you think or behaving in a way where the reactions of others are unanticipated rather than calculated. A harsh, intentional comment is as calculated as the precise, perfect wording of a compliment.
No, I think that she is referring to comments like Mr. Bingley as he speaks with Jane when they first meet, ''I CAN read!'' as he stumbles to ensure she gets that he is not illiterate. Contrast this with Mr. Collins rehearsed compliments. Mr. Darcy, while polished and capable in his wording drops the front in emotional moments with Elizabeth Bennet. We are sympathetic to Bingley and Darcy. We laugh at Collins.
The place is quiet. I think I will watch Pride and Prejudice....
I'm told that as people Age it is important to keep their mind busy and active to prevent the effects of declining cognitve sKills.
I loOk around me and I see people working crossword puzzles, jigsaw puzzles and Sudoku puzzles. I guess it's a great way to work the mind!
But as I age, I find that the analysis and discussion of classics is also a tremendous tool to keep the mind active. Not to mention, when I walk away from this book to another, I will have more in my mind to compare to things that happen in my life and to other books. Nothing puzzling about that!
Now to reread 135 and the blushing!
Anne states that Benwick and Louisa both come from good principles and good tempers. But that is all that Wentworth will give them stating, ''but there I think ends the resemblance.'' He goes on to speak of all things that would contribute to their happiness and comfort in life, even ''... more than perhaps--''
And here is where we conjecture. I think that he, in that moment, was comparing himself to Benwick and felt like he was unable to offer the same measure of happiness. He feels some rejection and Anne feels a twinge also. That would explain her blushing and downcast eyes and his stumbling over his words in an awkward moment.
A second idea I had was that he could be referring to Benwick being happier with Louisa than he was with his first wife who died, I think, less than a year before. After he cleared his throat he went on to suggest that Benwick's attachment to his wife could never merit a recovery of the heart. ''He ought not--he does not.''
Your thoughts? A girl's perspective please?
Oh, and get ready for a delicious paragraph at the bottom of 137!! WEE!!
First, I agree with what you said about the hasty and careless comments! That is precisely what I meant, and I guess I didn't explain it clearly. I did not thing she was referring in any way to hurtful comments, just that you are more apt to trust people like a Bingley or Darcy, and not a Collins. Good examples!
Here is what I interpreted on page 135:
Wentworth is talking about Louisa's parents and that they are "in favour of their (Benwick's and Louisa's) happiness; more than perhaps-" I think he was going to say they were more in favor of Benwick and Louisa than he and Louisa. Then, I think he recalls, as Anne is recalling at the same time, that Anne's family was not in favour of Wentworth's union with Anne. I'm really not sure, but that was the impression I got, and I felt the emotion of embarrassment for Wentworth also, as I read it, like Anne did.
Looking forward to page 137!
I can see that about Louisa's parents. Would you also take a closer look at the next paragraph where Wentworth speaks of Benwick's dead wife and tell me if you see anything in there?...
Yes, he talks about the relationship with Benwick and his wife and it being a true love, the kind a man would never get over. It makes Anne very happy to hear him talk that way.
But I've lost some respect for him. Why didn't he notice Anne to begin with when he returned? He treated her normally and Louisa captured his attention. Now it seems that since Louisa is marrying Benwick, he turns to Anne, and seems more interested in her because other men are interested in her. That bugs me.
He is embarrassed and uncomfortable and is unsure of where he stands. Having been rejected once before he is cautious in showing interest because he doesn't want to be crushed again. Louisa is second best and if he goes the rest of his life without knowing Anne's real feelings then he is not the wiser and can live without ever having to know he missed his second chance. There is safety there but no reward. No risk, no reward. That is the value Louisa adds to his life.
There is also the smugness of ''look what you missed out on!'' That is stupid, but seems to fall in line with human nature.
I think that in a deep and real love that exists between a man and woman who are not in a position to act on it there will always be pain, especially if each is involved with another person.
And it just compounds it if each are not in love with the person they are with. They must suffer together and separately, each imagining the other is less in love or less committed than maybe they really are.....
Wentworth is protecting himself from more pain. There will always be pain in life and there will always be opposition in all things. THAT is how you know joy!!
Where are you in the book? I have gotten to 145 and want to stay right about where you are! I'd kinda like you to get to end just slightly ahead of me. You be au fait!...
Nice thoughts! PAge 148 here...
At the risk of showing my lack of intelligence (and of losing more respect!) I looked up the word ''streightened'' because I did not understand it. It shows up toward the end of chap 21 and then in 22 (when I searched the searchable text for Persuasion). There was no reference for streighten except that it said to see ''straiten''. Here is the context; the definition follows.
"Mr Elliot would do nothing, and she could do nothing herself, equally disabled from personal exertion by her state of bodily weakness and from employing others by her want of money.**She had no natural connexions to assist her even with their counsel,
and she could not afford to purchase the assistance of the law. This was a cruel aggravation of actually streightened means.
To feel that she ought to be in better circumstances, that a little trouble in the right place might do it, and to fear that delay might be even weakening her claims, was hard to bear."
strait*en (strtn)
tr.v. strait*ened, strait*en*ing, strait*ens
1.
a. To make narrow.
b. To enclose in a limited area; confine.
2. To put or bring into difficulties or distress, especially financial hardship.
3. Archaic To restrict in latitude or scope.
It makes sense to me now. I think of strait jacket, straits pertaining to bodies of water, dire straits, relationship straits. That's where I am...
It is your turn to say something now!
What about page 137? Didn't you just love it?
From 158.
eclat
n. - Brilliant or conspicuous success or effect; Ceremonial elegance and splendor; Enthusiastic approval.
The noun eclat has 3 meanings:
Meaning #1 | accl...
Meaning #2: ceremonial elegance and splendor
**Synonym: pomp
Meaning #3: brilliant or conspicuous success or effect
I think if a deep and real love exists between a man and a woman, as you say, then it is not possible to be in love with anyone else. Doesn't anyone else out there have an opinion on any of this?
Page 137... Anne was thinking back about how he spoke, his mannerisms, etc, and decided he must still love her. It WAS good, but I was wondering as I read, why he had the sudden change of heart in his feelings for her. He could talk easily around her at Uppercross. So, now suddenly, when he didn't get what he wants in one place, he has to try somewhere else. "Looking for that next meal!" It's just not honorable to me!
I think "streightened" means "poor".
I actually have made it to the start of Chapter 22.
Page 150... "Her seeing the letter was a violation of the laws of honour, that no one ought to be judged or to be known by such testimonies, that no private correspondence could bear the eye of others, before she could recover calmness enough to return the letter which she had been meditating over, and say, "Thank you. This is full proof undoubtedly, proof of everything,..."
Even when it's accidental, reading something illuminating is proof of what a person's true feelings are.
Page 154... "There is always something offensive in the details of cunning. The manoeuvres of selfishness and duplicity must be revolting." So true!
Looks like you said something!! Wow! No doubt, you are right and I agree with you on that reply. Life can be convoluted at times, you know, and sometimes things aren't always as they appear...
I need to make a sandwich and get my day started. I've had a movie on and have spent the last 2 hours reponding and posting in the Lit Forum.
Guess what?...
Holding at the top of 176. Where are you?
You said, ''I think if a deep and real love exists between a man and a woman, as you say, then it is not possible to be in love with anyone else. Doesn't anyone else out there have an opinion on any of this?'' I have an opinion on that! I agree! I think it is not possible to be IN LOVE with more than one person. It's possible to love others non-romantically, but not to be IN love with more than one person. That's how I am. One girl. What about you? Are you IN love with anyone?
Page 137... I think LOUISA was the ''next meal'' all along, not Anne. He couldn't have the love of his life so he was willing to settle. Please see our exchanges about his embarrassment/risk/reward. But even so, people want to be in love, no matter how it hurts. That's human nature. But people don't go to the ''next meal'' if its been the main course for so long just because the meal they want is not available. Manufactured feelings do not work, I've come to realize.
Based on the definition I posted of streightened (straitened) I think it means that Mrs. Smith's financial resources became constrained, restricted, narrowed to the point that it affected her options. In this case an inability to hire a lawyer.
You wrote, (Page 150...) "Her seeing the letter was a violation of the laws of honour, that no one ought to be judged or to be known by such testimonies, that no private correspondence could bear the eye of others, before she could recover calmness enough to return the letter which she had been meditating over, and say, "Thank you. This is full proof undoubtedly, proof of everything,..."
'' Even when it's accidental, reading something illuminating is proof of what a person's true feelings are.'' When what is written is intended to convey meaning that is not of the heart, manipulation so to speak, then it is not proof of the heart. But it is cunning and offensive standing alone. Your quote from 154 could not better underscore that. And I've been guilty of that.
Page 154... "There is always something offensive in the details of cunning. The manoeuvres of selfishness and duplicity must be revolting." So true!
I'm around 160, I think. Been busy today. Will try to finish tomorrow. Lots to digest for now...
I will wait to finish till tomorrow. Yes, there is a lot to digest, and hopefully it's not your ''next meal''. Leaving this place now.
No, currently, I don't have the feelings of being "in love" with anyone, and I disagree with you about the "next meal." I think some people will seek it wherever they can, especially when the one they want is not available.
I am on page 164 now.
On page 159, I read something I could relate to:
"She had been used before to feel that he could not be always quite sincere, but now she saw insincerity in everything." I know that feeling. It takes very little to lose trust in someone. As Darcy says, "My good opinion once lost is lost forever." Once that trust is tested, it makes you wonder how many other times you were just told whatever was needed to smooth things over and you wonder how much of it was the truth. That feeling of mistrust never goes away.
My niece said that she saw the complete works of Jane austen at a book store and wants to get it for me next month! I thought that was very thoughtful of her!