Ok, ok, I know off-topic: but Hagler? seriously? not Sugar Ray Robinson?
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Ok, ok, I know off-topic: but Hagler? seriously? not Sugar Ray Robinson?
And Sugar Ray equates to .... which literary tradition?
Not specifically literary, but still scholarly......he clearly relates to the sweet scienceQuote:
Originally Posted by ennison
Ancient Greece,India and China are unquestionably greatest countries several thousand years ago. Then Dante and Shakespeare throughout the following years. In 19th century I think Russia and France were the most attractive lit countries.
Britain, yes.
Well you are correct in the first point. We modern greeks are different in physiognomy from our ancestors. Our history explains why (400 years under Othoman occupation) but you are very much mistaken in the second point. The language is not completely different as you say. True enough it has evolved during the centuries but a greek like me can fully comprehend a text in ancient greek. And if one learns modern greek and then compares it with ancient can actually see where all the words come from. Moreover, ancient greek is taught in schools in greece so that the students get to know their language better.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris239
I think my vote would go to Russia-esp. 19th century Russian literature-Russia has an enormous variety of authors back then-guess it merely serves to prove Harry Lime's point that political despotism often causes a great degree of cultural development-we have satirists such as Gogol and Chernevskii and Goncharov poets such as Pushkin, short story writers such as Chekov (and Gogol, again) as well as writers of "epics"-whether "short epics" such as Lermontov or "longer epics" such as Tolstoi. And who can forget the great Dostoevskii or Turgenev? 20th century authors such as Nabokov, Pasternak, Solzhenitsyn and Bulgakov also deserve a mention.
Other great countries for literature include Italy (Morante, Moravia, Calvino, Eco, Primo Levi, Manzoni, Svevo, Boccaccio, Petrarch) and France. (Fourniet, Gide, de Beaviour, Sartre, Hugo, Flaubert, de Balzac, Stendahl, Laclos, Camus, Yourcenar, Proust.)
Being English, I obviously tend to read more books in my own language tahn any other, but I think that for the last few hundred years, Britain has produced some amazing writers... and... Shakespeare... need I say more?
Has anyone mentioned GERMANY yet? Brecht, Goethe, Grass, Hesse, the two Manns (or should that be Menn?), and Nietzsche were no slouches.
Still, I think the good old U.S.A., melting pot of world cultures (including their literary traditions), has produced the best literature in the last 200+ years.
German literature is good, though in my opinion it lags behind French and Russian literature-however if you included German speaking countries or writers i.e Czech, Austria, then Germany would easily be the equal of French and Russian literature-Musil, Walser, Kafka, Joseph Roth were all non-Germans who wrote in German.
I am not too sure about America's status as the greatest country for literature over the last 200 years-I am not really that big a fan of American literature, being a European in tastes, and with the exception of Faulkner's and Twain's novels, as well as "Catch-22", "The Invisible Man" and "Moby Dick", I can find little in American literature that measures up to Dostoevskii, Kafka, Flaubert, Shakespeare etc. I am not a big fan of other American heavyweights, such as Hemingway, Kerouac, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald and Hawthorne, and as de Tocqueville noted, American literature during the 18th and later on the 19th century wasn't great-only three novels from that time period come to mind, "Moby Dick", "The Scarlett Letter" and "Uncle Tom's Cabin", as well as Mark Twain's novels.
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Originally Posted by somerickguy
You're joking, right?
The literature that stuck the most with me is mostly Ancient Greek. Sophocles Euripides, Homer, Aristophones, Aristotle, Sappho, Hesiod, etc.
Then of course, there were some very excellent Latin writers, Ovid, Lucien, Virgil etc.
During the time between Normandy and the 100 years war, I would say French/Provencal were the most diminant in literature. The whole courtly love movement in Provence really saw the birth of some excellent lyric literature.
From there up until Elizabethan times, I would say Italian was very dominant in terms of literature in the western world. There were quite a few formidable poets coming out of Italy around 1300 and all through the renaissance, particularly Dante, Boccaccio, Petrarch, etc.
After that however, the world sort of shifted in my opinion to a more English.
During the Elizabethan period we saw the birth of a whole new literature; we had poets like Shakespeare, Donne, and Milton writing excellent works. But at the same time, there were also French writers like Moliere and Voltaire about to show their faces.
Now after all that? I would probably say the country that produced the best literature is probably the United Kingdom (specifically England). The quality work that has come out of England during and after the Elizabethan, through the Victorian period, and now into modern times has just been incredible.
France, Russia, Canada, The United States Italy, South America, and India also have some excellent writers, and with the new literary movements happening now may yet be in my opinion "The Country that has produced the greatest literature", but as it is, since most of my reading has been in English, and most of the books I have read that were originally written in English are from the British Isles, I would have to say The United Kingdom.
Note though, that I really didn't talk at all about Eastern literature since I am not very familiar with it. There are of course some excellent works that came out and are coming out of China, Japan, and other eastern countries, but the language barrier prohibited me from reading much into those works.
Maybe you ought to read outside the box a bit. Here are fifteen American novels which are easily as good as anything written by the Dostoevsky's, the Kafka's or whatevers of the world and I barely read American novelists to begin with!Quote:
I am not too sure about America's status as the greatest country for literature over the last 200 years-I am not really that big a fan of American literature, being a European in tastes, and with the exception of Faulkner's and Twain's novels, as well as "Catch-22", "The Invisible Man" and "Moby Dick", I can find little in American literature that measures up to Dostoevskii, Kafka, Flaubert, Shakespeare etc. I am not a big fan of other American heavyweights, such as Hemingway, Kerouac, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald and Hawthorne, and as de Tocqueville noted, American literature during the 18th and later on the 19th century wasn't great-only three novels from that time period come to mind, "Moby Dick", "The Scarlett Letter" and "Uncle Tom's Cabin", as well as Mark Twain's novels.
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
Hyperion - Dan Simmons
A Storm of Swords - George R. R. Martin
Winter's Tale - Mark Helprin
Something Wicked This Way Comes - Ray Bradbury
It - Stephen King
The Dispossessed - Ursula Le Guin
The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula Le Guin
Boys & Girls Together - William Goldman
The Haunting of Hill House - Shirley Jackson
Dune - Frank Herbert
Mary and the Giant - Philip K. Dick
Gateway - Frederik Pohl
Rediscovery of Man - Cordwainer Smith
Practical Magic - Alice Hoffman
The Runner - Cynthia Voight
How can anyone answer a question like this except out of ignorance of what has not been read. A lot of the time we are reliant on what others have said about even the small number of texts within the range of the languages in which we are literate. Look at the list of authors available in this site alone. How many of us have personal knowledge of most of them, even of half of them? The fellow Crawford in the list was a famous author in his day but seems to be relatively unknown today - perhaps deservedly.
I don't know much about Indian literature and am totally ignorant about Chinese and these two nations constitute a large proportion of the World's people. I don't think my ignorance is unusual.
George R. R. Martin was English the last time I checked. As for Frank Herbert's Dune, the novel itself was largely influenced by European literature (Including Shakespeare, who I know you loath). Half the books there are boring sci-fi (yes, I know not all sci-fi is bad, but you chose some of the more boring works, and aside from U.K. Leguin, I wouldn't have chosen any of those authors.)Quote:
Originally Posted by EAP
Stephen King's It gets a large scope of reviews. My personal opinion on that novel (and most of King's work) is that he doesn't think before he writes. He wrote is his memoirs that he just writes, and doesn't think over what he is going to write before he begins. That conveniently leads to lame endings, and poor pacing/padding.
And P.S. last time I checked, most of those weren't written in the 19th century.
JBI
Haven't heard of a lot of those novels to be honest, but to compare Stephen King with Dostoevskii or Kafka is ridiculous in my opinion. I guess such a list is very subjective, but I doubt whether many of those authors anywhere near as influential as many of the European authors listed.
First of all I think it's not distinguishable which nation possesses the most important man of letters.
But what is clearly distinguishable is that this list must have been some kind of ridiculous joke. There are dozens if not hundreds of authors who are highly preferable compared to those mentioned below.
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To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
Hyperion - Dan Simmons
A Storm of Swords - George R. R. Martin
Winter's Tale - Mark Helprin
Something Wicked This Way Comes - Ray Bradbury
It - Stephen King
The Dispossessed - Ursula Le Guin
The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula Le Guin
Boys & Girls Together - William Goldman
The Haunting of Hill House - Shirley Jackson
Dune - Frank Herbert
Mary and the Giant - Philip K. Dick
Gateway - Frederik Pohl
Rediscovery of Man - Cordwainer Smith
Practical Magic - Alice Hoffman
The Runner - Cynthia Voight
Your check was faulty. Check again, George R. R. Martin is American.Quote:
George R. R. Martin was English the last time I checked.
http://www.nndb.com/people/215/000044083/
Sources, please. :) In any case it doesn't matter, Frank Herbert was most definitely an American national, whether his works were influenced by the Shakespeare or The Art of War doesn't matter in this particular context.Quote:
As for Frank Herbert's Dune, the novel itself was largely influenced by European literature (Including Shakespeare, who I know you loath).
Have you read those books which you term 'boring science fiction?' In case you have than that's fair enough, it's, at least, your educated opinion and I can respect that, in case you haven't though, striking with such broad brushes accomplishes nothing and summarily dismissing something one hasn't even read makes one kinda look like an idiot.Quote:
Half the books there are boring sci-fi (yes, I know not all sci-fi is bad, but you chose some of the more boring works, and aside from U.K. Leguin, I wouldn't have chosen any of those authors.)
It is among the most moving novels I have ever read and a masterpiece of pure storytelling. Stephen King's output varies in quality from sublime to utterly ****e and It, alongside the Dark Tower saga is easily his best work.Quote:
Stephen King's It gets a large scope of reviews. My personal opinion on that novel (and most of King's work) is that he doesn't think before he writes. He wrote is his memoirs that he just writes, and doesn't think over what he is going to write before he begins. That conveniently leads to lame endings, and poor pacing/padding.
Yes. Relevence to the thread topic?Quote:
And P.S. last time I checked, most of those weren't written in the 19th century.
Well, that's your opinion. I think even Stephen King himself will agree with you, however I, and several others have derived far more enjoyment out of King's stuff than Kafka or Dostoevski.Quote:
Haven't heard of a lot of those novels to be honest, but to compare Stephen King with Dostoevskii or Kafka is ridiculous in my opinion.
'Influential' is an interesting word. What exactly do you mean by influential? A novel like It, The Shining or Salem's Lot has probably entertained more people the whole canon of someone like Rilke put together. In Salem's Lots' case, it pretty much revived the whole horror genre of its own in the United States. Dune is cited by most people as the premier sci-fi work of its era, Hyperion combines all the qualities of the space opera sub-genre with the edigness and ideas inherent in social science fiction resulting in a story which not only packs a huge emotional punch but is thought provoking as well.Quote:
I guess such a list is very subjective, but I doubt whether many of those authors anywhere near as influential as many of the European authors listed.
The influence of a book on people's lives can seldom be measured.
Inspiration is a strange thing and is found in the oddest of places - most literature students seem to measure the 'influence' of a book by the number of copycats it has or other literary works which directly ackowledge its influence. IMO, that's a very presumptious and erronous way of doing it.
And seriously, this thread amounts to nothing more than nationalistic wang-waving - naturally, like all controversial issues, it generates more discussions than other, meatier threads.
Such as?Quote:
But what is clearly distinguishable is that this list must have been some kind of ridiculous joke. There are dozens if not hundreds of authors who are highly preferable compared to those mentioned below.
Sorry mate, don't want to stay up all night... :)
What I wanted to say is: I just do not agree mentioning authors like stephen king in one line with Shakespeare, Goethe, Dostoevsky.. etc.
Stephen King is just one of the thirteen writers mentioned in the above list. I happen to disagree with your stance, but have you read, say Ursula Le Guin or Mark Helprin?
This is totally subjective. You can't judge which country has the best literature unless you have at least, I dunno, ten languages and have read significant literary works from loads of countries. Now if I was a record holding languages genuis reader then maybe it would be possible. Another problem is that no-one can judge what the 'best' literature is, because that is dependant entirely on each persons individual view. I would, sorry to but in, be inclined to agree that Dostoevsky is better than Ursula le Guin, but then that depends on my definition of Good Literature. I'm willing to bet that Stephen King has sold more copies to modern readers than many of the classic authors, but Im not sure than popularity equals good. BUT ANYWAY Scotland's literature is obviously the best (only cos Ive read most of it!)
Yes, perhaps I am in this case being narrow-minded and elitist, but I put literary influence above all other influences, as I already mentioned such a thing is entirely subjective-but looking at the immense literary influence that Flaubert, Cervantes, Kafka, Dostoevskii etc. exerted I cannot help but think that they are, in their own way, more influential than say Stephen King.Quote:
'Influential' is an interesting word. What exactly do you mean by influential? A novel like It, The Shining or Salem's Lot has probably entertained more people the whole canon of someone like Rilke put together. In Salem's Lots' case, it pretty much revived the whole horror genre of its own in the United States. Dune is cited by most people as the premier sci-fi work of its era, Hyperion combines all the qualities of the space opera sub-genre with the edigness and ideas inherent in social science fiction resulting in a story which not only packs a huge emotional punch but is thought provoking as well
what about Islamic literatures ?!!:( :(
In my opinion , I think Muslims has produced the greatest literature ((throughout time)) but alot of you have not read about this literatures yet ...
I don't know why ???
it is so nice...:) :)
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Originally Posted by EAP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inderjit Sanghe
i havent read most of those but the ones i have are very good. Remember that becoming important in a literary sense is harder as time moves on. Although its still possible. ANd also think about the disadavantage of sci-fi. Sci-Fi is obviously a very different style of writing. authors are making up culture and technology as well as characters.
Still Hyperion and Dune are just as good as some of more classic works in my opinion and they also have many other values that the classics dont.
[QUOTE][In my opinion , I think Muslims has produced the greatest literature ((throughout time)) but alot of you have not read about this literatures yet ...
I don't know why/QUOTE]
I am unsure as to whether by "Muslim" you mean "Middle-Eastern"-I have read "The Children of Gabalawi" by Mahfouz, and I liked it, still have to read his "Cairo Trilogy" though. I guess "Muslim" literature, sadly, is not very famous or available in Europe, which is sad I guess. Could you list some famous books?
England
Ireland/Scotland
India
Russia
Well, I might say Ireland, for I do feel that the greatest novel that I have yet read came from that country ("Ulysses", by James Joyce. Dublin, to be specific), and the same can be said for all of Joyce's works. But outside of Joyce and a few others, I can't really hold the argument of Ireland for too long.
Greece, perhaps? With the great trinity of philosiphers that came from the country (Socrates, Plato and Aristotle), who could argue? As well as two titans like Homer and Pericles. Russia indeed comes to mind with heavys such as Rand (my personal favorite Russian-born author, although she is generally considered an American author), Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Solzhenitsyn, etc.
France has produced some of the most amazing authors, as well. Victor Hugo, Claude Simon, Gaston Leroux, Alphonse de Lamartine, Voltaire, etc.
It is also hard to deny the power of American literature: Bradbury (One of my favorites ever), Steinbeck, Capote, Fitzgerald, Poe, Lovecraft, King, Frost, etc.
I don't know.
I just appreciate there is so much to chose from!
Well we will all have personal favourites based on what we know and that will be based on what we are capable of reading (Sometimes a bad translation or a weak translation can give us an incorrect appreciation of a writer's talents - translation is an art of its own). Sometimes we take it for granted that 'the canon' is the best but that is not always the case at all and I would agree that if you want to become a good reader then you should 'read out of the box' as I think someone said above. It's good to have a shared body of writers to think and talk about but there are many, many many others.
I am sure that King is a decent storyteller and probably has no false illusions of his own lasting contribution to literature
Britain....hands down! As many scholars have argued there is no great American love novel like the British have. We dont get the gothic (well Poe) and love from any american author like we do with the Bronte's or the ultimate love story, Pride and Prejudice.
Americans do have their shiny places in science fiction and thrillers.
Too hard to say. Who's read literature from every nation?
From what I've read though, Russia. Although North America is not too shabby, either. Still, RUSSIA.
Even though I have a burning passion for Brit Lit, one cannot deny that wonderful quality writing has been produced by not only English authors, but also American, ancient Greek, ancient Roman, Russian, and French authors! I am just an all around bibliophile, so everything is amazing!
American literature hands down. we can make a bonfire for all that Victorian literature, what a snore.
German philosophers surpassed even the Greeks, period.
Yes i agree that its hard to chose one country over many when one has only read the literature of a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by ennison
Only a few other that Joyce? Really? there are so many good Irish writers out there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian Poet
Seamus Heaney
W.B.Yeats
Padraig Colum
Gearge Moore
Patrick Kavanagh
Brendan Behan
J.M.Synge
Lady Gregory
Oscar Wilde
Oliver Goldsmith
Johnatan Swift
Bram Stoker
G.B.Shaw
Samuel Beckett
R.B.Sheridan
Sheridan LeFanu
AE (George Russell)
And Lets not forget Thomas Moore, one of the greatest ballad writers.
Brian Friel
Marina Carr
and this is to name a few!
And which coutries do you mean?
There are many small and neglected countries and nations. When I was in USA, nobody I met didn't even know where Slovakia is. In Paris, I stayed with one family for two weeks and French woman tried to explain to me how the toilet works. She thought that Slovakia was in Africa (though I'm white) and that I never saw it before. In Italy, people were shocked that in our capital there are "normal, painted buildings". Again, they probably thought we lived in trees... but no, Slovakia is beautiful, but not Lothlorien, I'm afraid. :D
My country (and almost all other countries in Central, East or South Europe) is almost invisible for people in other parts of the world. People in West Europe and USA don't even know we exist. So how could they possibly know our literature?
But that doesn't mean that we (and all those other countries as well) don't have good literature!!!
It means that today, "world literature" means American and British. With some others like Russian authors of 19th century (as if Russian literature ceased to exist after Tolstoy), and few authors from Frech, German and Italian literature. Occassionally (but that's very rare) authors from other countries.
That's so narrow-minded... :(
I know what you mean. People automaticly go for the countries they have read the most lit from. MAybe if more of the literature of Slovakia, Slovinia, Cech, Poland, Latvia, Romania etc where translated into different languages they'd begiven more consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiculík
I know where Slovakia is. And I agree, this thread is extremely narrow minded. And I've expressed something similar earlier in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiculík
Although I must admit, I was thinking the same way until few years ago. Then I met one great man who opened my eyes. :)
Thanks to him, I discovered such great authors as Ilya Ilf and Evgeny Petrov (Russian authors, always write together and are usually referred to as Ilf-Petrov), Haruki Murakami (A Wild Sheep Chase - excellent book), Nikos Kazantzakis (ever heard of Zorba the Greek?), Naguib Mahfous (Nobel Prize winner from Egypt), or Ismail Kadare (current Albanian author)
World is full of beautiful books. Don't deprive yourselves of beauty by reading always same few authors from always same few countries! Read, enjoy - and then you may judge, if you'll still feel like it.
I discovered I'm too humble to judge like this.
Germany... :nod:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_literature
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiculík
I totally agree.:thumbs_upQuote:
Originally Posted by Aiculík
I'm sorry that i'm quoting two entire posts but i agree with everything Aiculík says and i can't ommit part of it.