Do you believe in fate?

I agree with Yeroptok. Awhile back there seemed to be a lot of coincidences going on around me and it lead me to wonder why that was, each incident was seemingly unrelated to the others, then I broadened it to a wider view, how come two people invented the light bulb at roughly the same time, why was fire discovered when it was, why not sooner? later? It lead me to think that fate had something to do with it, and it makes sense that the laws of nature and physics governs how and why things happen, scientifically speaking of course.

an anomaly exists in every system . . . no theory is true one-hundred percent. the hope of escape always exists, even from your own fate.

hehe, but you'll only find yourself bound to some other fate.

The reason the NT writers have such a different perspective is because Jesus introduced a new order. Neither seem to agree with fate. I personally don't, I think it's a matter of my choices and others around me, I hope so anyway! Even so if you read stuff like Macbeth and Sophocles' Oedipus Rex it really makes you question your beliefs. Some stuff is beyond controll to us, but that does not make it fate. REally confusing issue!!!

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Originally posted by IWilKikU
Yes but you'll notice that the NT authors have a MUCH different view on most issues than the OT. Some denomonations even do away with the OT all together and say that the NT directly contradicts the teachings of the OT. I don't neccasarily believe that, but the attitudes of the people of the NT are MUCH different. That much is impossible not to notice. Also, if you happen to not believe in the trinity, than whats the holy spirit doing? He's not there. Thats another one of my problems. I go no trinity (much to the chagrin of my christian friends and family) so for me, there was no holy spirit to take over the epostles writing hands, or Moses's hands for that matter. Damn, I hardly even remember where I started. Oh yeah.

The OT writers sound psychotically zealous in some writings. Issueing out death warrents for eating meat on Friday, strikeing people dead for looking directly at the ark of the covonant, ect. If some of the things that they write can be so skewed to follow there agenda of control on the people of Isreal, what else was skewed?

I posted an account of 9/11 as it may have been written about by an OT author. I'll try to find it to add more clarity to what I'm trying to say

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I see your point about the two things, and isn't why that the NT is also called the Bible (means GOOD News)? Cause in the OT most of the writings are dominated by laws and punishments, and too much obligations. On the other hand, the NT was written in the spirit of love, mercy, and things like that . The laws and obligations are there but they are delivered in a softer way. I don't really see the contradiction between the laws in OT and NT, it's merely because the condition, cause NT was written after Jesus came and His foundation of teaching is love..
(IMO)

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Originally posted by subterranean
I see your point about the two things, and isn't why that the NT is also called the Bible (means GOOD News)? Cause in the OT most of the writings are dominated by laws and punishments, and too much obligations. On the other hand, the NT was written in the spirit of love, mercy, and things like that . The laws and obligations are there but they are delivered in a softer way. I don't really see the contradiction between the laws in OT and NT, it's merely because the condition, cause NT was written after Jesus came and His foundation of teaching is love..
(IMO)

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I agree. The OT has a different purpose and a different emphasis than the NT. The laws aren't different just some of the rules were no longer necessary, besides which people were getting so caught up with rules they forgot God! The Holy Spirit merely inspired in a different way.

inspired in a different way . . . but jews still burn in hell.

Says who?
And anybody can burn in hell, depending on what they believe.

Why is belief so important that it can get you into hell? It sounds like a pretty sadistic little game to me. What a god of love he is!

It's just as well that we don't behave as God does, otherwise we would be nuking people all over the place, and casting people into the ovens for believing things that we don't, for being different to us.

Maybe God inspired Adolf and Josef.

If somebody believes in hell, and also believes in freewill, and that freewill can lead us to sin and eventually hell, then how can that person have children? Isn't child-rearing a terribly callous thing to do in such circumstances?

I believe in hell, but I don't really believe in free will. I mean the real definition of free will can only be found in the concept of reincarnation of the Budhists/Hindus. That's really 'free will', cause uoi will have the changes to be a better person. If you're keep doing bad things that you'll be traped in the cirlcle of reicarnation. But the case is different in Christianity.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Why is belief so important that it can get you into hell? It sounds like a pretty sadistic little game to me. What a god of love he is!

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Belief is the most important thing but I don't believe God would condemn everyone who is not Christian. Afterall Jesus tried to save people not kill them. I think even if you believe after death God would be pretty forgiving still.

Cassandra,

Why is belief the most important thing? I believe that Brazil won the last world cup. I don't think that's really important. Do you?

beliefs are for goldfish.

<I think even if you believe after death God would be pretty forgiving still.>

I think that whatever you are after death, it cannot be compared to what you were before death. Belief is a concept that applies to living material things. Therefore, the whole question of belief after death becomes meaningless.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Why is belief so important that it can get you into hell? It sounds like a pretty sadistic little game to me. What a god of love he is!

It's just as well that we don't behave as God does, otherwise we would be nuking people all over the place, and casting people into the ovens for believing things that we don't, for being different to us.

Maybe God inspired Adolf and Josef.

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ati, what a horrible thing to say. :( Beliefs are the most important things to people. If you believe in NOTHING than what's the point in anything? You know, a lot of people think that hell is a place without God. The theory goes that all the people who don't want to be around God don't have to be. It would just be considered 'hell' by a lot of people to live somewhere like that.

*deep breath* Do you really think THIS is all there is to the world? That there's nothing else out there? No greater meaning, no other purpose, no greater good? Why don't I just kill myself then? I'd rather die than believe in nothing, as if this is all there is. Beliefs are important because they are the quintessential essence of humanity. Love, faith, hope. It's what holds us together. Atheists sound so inhuman sometimes, standing there belittling things that others hold dear. what do you believe in? nothing?

and it's pretty darned important who wins the world cup!!!! :p :) [going to Germany. Just try and stop me]

~Goldfish. glub glub.

just off topic, I love soccer.

continuing my monologue, are you going to ask me if the world is hell then, because God isn't here? We can still reach him, in hell you probably can't.

God is here, just in a different form, that's what i think anyway. I agree with fayefaye, people have to believe in something. I guess I'm a goldfish too, oh well. I also have to say that the cup is a little different in my opinion, though many would disagree. That doesn't mean things like that aren't important, just that that particualr belief is different.

"I think that whatever you are after death, it cannot be compared to what you were before death. Belief is a concept that applies to living material things. Therefore, the whole question of belief after death becomes meaningless."

That depends on your beliefs. Having heaven implys a consciousness after death so faith can still apply. You probably would be different after death, hopefully better but their still must be some sone of you.

It kind of annoys me that EVERY thread that has anything to do with the Bible becomes a Christians v. Non-Christians fight. All I was talking about was OT authors biases. Nevermind :(

cry, l'ttle baby.

it's not a fight, it's merely trying to see others views and putting accross your own.

<If you believe in NOTHING than what's the point in anything?>

Of course, it is impossible to believe in nothing. I can believe in something, it doesn't give a point to anything. Why do people seem to think that belief gives some kind of external meaning? You can believe all kinds of sh*t. It won't make your world any the more objective. Believe me!

<The theory goes that all the people who don't want to be around God don't have to be.>

Here's my theory: Hell is a world filled with well-meaning people who believe that God is around them, that he is looking after their interests, as all good parents would, who believe that God speaks to them, loves them, has plans for them; when in fact, sh*t happens indiscriminately, the good people of the Lord suffer as horribly as the rest of us, they dedicate themselves terribly unsuccessfully to Him, and deserve something for their efforts at least. Now all that would be purgatory, if it weren't for the fact that when hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, plagues, famines kill thousands of people, God-lovers and others, these believers still belief in their loving God. They even think that a return of 15 living survivors against say 25,000 dead is something to call a miracle. Now that is hell.

And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?

<*deep breath* Do you really think THIS is all there is to the world? That there's nothing else out there? No greater meaning, no other purpose, no greater good? Why don't I just kill myself then? I'd rather die than believe in nothing, as if this is all there is. Beliefs are important because they are the quintessential essence of humanity. Love, faith, hope. It's what holds us together. Atheists sound so inhuman sometimes, standing there belittling things that others hold dear. what do you believe in? nothing?>

You wouldn't be belittling my beliefs now would you Fayefaye?

greater meaning? greater good? What on earth do you mean by that? Whose good? Whose meaning? Do you believe these terms are absolute? Why should anything that is the quintessential essence of humanity be important to the Universe? to God? I would say you have missed some essential elements that hold us together in your list. Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!). There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.

Still no-one has answered my question about why people who believe in Hell have children. I mean, one definite way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?

I think you can tell what someone believes by the way they behave. It is a far better yardstick than words can ever be. Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe.

<If you believe in NOTHING than what's the point in anything?>

Of course, it is impossible to believe in nothing. I can believe in something, it doesn't give a point to anything. Why do people seem to think that belief gives some kind of external meaning? You can believe all kinds of sh*t. It won't make your world any the more objective. Believe me!

<The theory goes that all the people who don't want to be around God don't have to be.>

Here's my theory: Hell is a world filled with well-meaning people who believe that God is around them, that he is looking after their interests, as all good parents would, who believe that God speaks to them, loves them, has plans for them; when in fact, sh*t happens indiscriminately, the good people of the Lord suffer as horribly as the rest of us, they dedicate themselves terribly unsuccessfully to Him, and deserve something for their efforts at least. Now all that would be purgatory, if it weren't for the fact that when hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, plagues, famines kill thousands of people, God-lovers and others, these believers still belief in their loving God. They even think that a return of 15 living survivors against say 25,000 dead is something to call a miracle. Now that is hell.

And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?

<*deep breath* Do you really think THIS is all there is to the world? That there's nothing else out there? No greater meaning, no other purpose, no greater good? Why don't I just kill myself then? I'd rather die than believe in nothing, as if this is all there is. Beliefs are important because they are the quintessential essence of humanity. Love, faith, hope. It's what holds us together. Atheists sound so inhuman sometimes, standing there belittling things that others hold dear. what do you believe in? nothing?>

You wouldn't be belittling my beliefs now would you Fayefaye?

greater meaning? greater good? What on earth do you mean by that? Whose good? Whose meaning? Do you believe these terms are absolute? Why should anything that is the quintessential essence of humanity be important to the Universe? to God? I would say you have missed some essential elements that hold us together in your list. Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!). There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.

Still no-one has answered my question about why people who belive in Hell have children. I mean, one sure way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?

"Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe."

Religion doesn't equal belief.

"Still no-one has answered my question about why people who belive in Hell have children."

The way I see it people don't believe that their children would go to hell. If you believe in a heaven surely you would believe that your kids'll go there, at least when their born, and you raise in a way that will ensure this, it just doesn't always work.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!).

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Of course they are less worthy. Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego (in fact, power seems to revolve around idiots these times :mad: ). Have you read the Prince lately? That sounded a lot like Macchiavelli.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.

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They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Still no-one has answered my question about why people who believe in Hell have children. I mean, one definite way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?

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Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I think you can tell what someone believes by the way they behave. It is a far better yardstick than words can ever be. Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe.

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That is not a bad measure method. If religion was followed properly (in this case, as I see how christianism should be follow, or more accurately, how I try to follow it), then behavior would certainly improve.

*Whispering*
BTW, you posted your post twice :)

hmm... well, i think the choices we make and the things we do determine our fate...

Crisaor,

<Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego>

And what's wrong with sex, power and ego? Why do you have to denigrate them? I suppose you think love, faith and hope are elevated above these other human endeavours do you? Well, let me tell you this, without sex you wouldn't be here. Without power, you wouldn't be here and without ego you wouldn't be here. However, it doesn't take love, or faith, or hope for you to be here. Secondly, don't you think that in going around calling people shmucks you slip into that typical self-righteousness associated with your religious belief?

<They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.>

I don't really understand what you mean here, Crisaor. It does rather sound like you are saying that real existences aren't things to believe in. I assume then, that you agree with me, that God doesn't really exist?

<Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.>

Oh dear, more higher-than-thou condemnation. Well, I guess I get used to it from people with your way of thinking.

My solution is not for any problem at all. I said it was in relation to the problem of hell. Not having children is an absolute guarantee of not adding to the population of hell. Is that really difficult to understand?

And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma

And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?

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AP, first of all I don't consider myself a "Christian"... today. I might again tomorrow. I'm a little indecisive about it. But wether or not I am its not cool to come out swinging at Christianity so much. This particular thread does seem to be following the trend of monotheism rather than Christianity, but you specifically attack Christians in a good 50% of your posts. I was merely observing that you appear to have a common agenda within your forum personallity. Are you trying to convert the entire site to... whatever you are? Having people of varying religeous beliefs on the site is a bonus for everyone. Making your beliefs known is great. Keep it up. But deliberately picking fights based on religeous beliefs DOES NOT make this forum a better place. Check out Dyrwin, he runs an athiest discussion forum and I don't think I have ever once seen him trying to belittle people on this forum who's views he may disagree with. He respects the Christian users based on their literature discussions, so when we get into philosophical discussions he doesn't bash the Christians. He listens and dissagrees. All I'm trying to say is make your beliefs known, but don't be such a zealot!

And for the record, I get just as frusterated listening to Christian zealots go on their tirades.

Crisaor,

<Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego>

And what's wrong with sex, power and ego? Why do you have to denigrate them? I suppose you think love, faith and hope are elevated above these other human endeavours do you? Well, let me tell you this, without sex you wouldn't be here. Without power, you wouldn't be here and without ego you wouldn't be here. However, it doesn't take love, or faith, or hope for you to be here. Secondly, don't you think that in going around calling people shmucks you slip into that typical self-righteousness associated with your religious belief?

<They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.>

I don't really understand what you mean here, Crisaor. It does rather sound like you are saying that real existences aren't things to believe in. I assume then, that you agree with me, that God doesn't really exist?

<Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.>

Oh dear, more higher-than-thou condemnation. Well, I guess I get used to it from people with your way of thinking.

My solution is not for any problem at all. I said it was in relation to the problem of hell. Not having children is an absolute guarantee of not adding to the population of hell. Is that really difficult to understand?

And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?

<you specifically attack Christians in a good 50% of your posts>

I respond to Christian posts. If there were more Muslim posters I would respond to them too. How can you say that I specifically attack Christians? How many times do I actually refer to Christianity? I respond to what I think is incorrect. I try my best not to make statements like <Because it's a stupid way>. That reads as a statement of fact. Read some of my postings again, IWilKiku, and you will see that I frequently make statements of opinion. I oftenpose questions. Rarely do I write something that reads as a factual statement, unless I can make a pretty sound logical case for it. Whilst I will often respond to ideas I disagree with, most of my responses have been to these opinionated statements that masquerade as facts. Now if it is the Christians that are most guilty of making these types of statement, that is hardly my fault, is it?

You call me a zealot, but if that is the case, I would like to know what you think my zealous beliefs are? I am not trying to convert anyone. I don't have any systematic set of beliefs to convert them to. When I am asked to provide alternative views I try my best to give something.

You say that you are frustrated by Christian zealots. I suppose, the fact that you have singled me out for a lecture on moderation, means that in your eyes, not only am I a zealot, but I am the only zealot here. Have you ever given this lecture to Christians on this site? Or don't you think there are any Christian zealots here? Because it would appear that if I am the only focus of your criticism in this respect, then you would appear to have some bias against atheism. In which case, it should be me that should lecture you.

I once said in one of my post that somehow I think that most of the topic related to such matters (like fate, purpose of life, etc) are dominated with the discussion about christian values. I agree with you on that Kik . But I also agree with AP that it happened becoz most of the peeps here refered their opinions to Christianity. If there were any Budhist, Hindus, Muslims, members also participate, I'm sure the discussion will develop a whole lot more..

I have to say that I like AP's posts coz I think it broadened my horizon as a believer. Things that AP posted encouraged me to discover the answers from the prespective of Christianity (since this is my belief). So instead of seeing AP's posts as attack to Christian faith, I see them as somethings that can encourage me to learn more about Christian teaching. If this is the right belief for me, then I'll surely find those answers

And by the way I see a new member (the captain) and he/she was already banned ???

"And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?"

I'm not happy about it, but it is not my decision, if it was everybody would be able to go to heaven, guess that's why it's not my choice. People have to be free to chose their own beliefs and fate, and if they cannot accept God even after death that's their decision, I can only give my children (when I have some) the opportunity and knowledge to make that choice.

that's called indoctrination.

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Originally posted by atiguhya padma

I respond to Christian posts. If there were more Muslim posters I would respond to them too. How can you say that I specifically attack Christians? How many times do I actually refer to Christianity? I respond to what I think is incorrect. I try my best not to make statements like <Because it's a stupid way>. That reads as a statement of fact. Read some of my postings again, IWilKiku, and you will see that I frequently make statements of opinion. I oftenpose questions. Rarely do I write something that reads as a factual statement, unless I can make a pretty sound logical case for it. Whilst I will often respond to ideas I disagree with, most of my responses have been to these opinionated statements that masquerade as facts. Now if it is the Christians that are most guilty of making these types of statement, that is hardly my fault, is it?

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AP, you have a way with words that not many other people do. You are really really good at forming logical, well structured arguements. I know that its a tendancy of people that have strong beliefs in anything to shout out things like 'Thats stupid!' And you DON'T do that... quite like that. The thing I have a problem with is the way you use your gift of words to patronize and belittle other posters who arn't as gifted writers as you. Rather than a punch in the face, you deliver a constant tickle in the armpit until it chafes and turns red and irritated and gets infected until someone gets pissed and blows up at you, like I did. It's like you set people up to get mad and than when they do get mad and yell at you, rather than thinking through thier post, you give this innocent little girl approach like, 'Oh no, its not my fault... I was just saying... You don't need to get so mad at me...

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You say that you are frustrated by Christian zealots. I suppose, the fact that you have singled me out for a lecture on moderation, means that in your eyes, not only am I a zealot, but I am the only zealot here. Have you ever given this lecture to Christians on this site? Or don't you think there are any Christian zealots here? Because it would appear that if I am the only focus of your criticism in this respect, then you would appear to have some bias against atheism. In which case, it should be me that should lecture you.

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You got me. I don't think I have ever jumped down a Christian zealots throat... ON THIS FORUM ... Most of the people on this forum that I respect are sensative to other people's beliefs. There have been debates, but the only person that I respect that constantly turns intellectual discussions into belief bashing sessions is you (note that I threw in respect so Star Blue doesn't count). I go to school at a very conservative Seventh-Day Adventist College. I get into fights with ignorent zealous Christians who just regurgitate bible verses at me all day every day. So trust me, I don't need a lecture in moderation or toleration. I have some very good friends who are Atheists, and I even dabbled in Atheism myself. I wouldn't ever jump down an Atheists throat just for being Atheist. Did you miss all the stuff I said about Dyrwen in my last post?

you're unintelligable.

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Originally posted by pretty eyes
that's called indoctration.

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That's why I'm not God. And what do you think parents, teachers etc... do?

I'm not sure I follow you Cass.

ap, i put you on my ignore list. it became hard to read your belittling comments; there was too much cruelty in your subtlety.