is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!
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is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!
Never too late. But we've just started. Come on in and contribute. :) I'm looking forward to your thoughts, since you've already read it once.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
Thanks! I havent read it cover to cover before though, maybe around 3/5altogether. But from what i have read i love the play and look forward to having a more serious read of it!
just started reading first scene
i enjoy the contrast of Philos scolding of love and how it is distracting Anthony, with anthony and cleopatras "puppy eyes" swooning over eachother right after. That shakespeare...its only the beggning of the play and hes already charmed me!
aww anthony is so love sick...i love how Shakespeare presents Cleo, the female, as the practical "lets get back to business" one. She must have had to been so tough to deal with all that at such a young age...
gah..im mis-spelling antony..sorry..its late here...
Now, for the love of Love and her soft hours,
Let's not confound the time with conference harsh:
There's not a minute of our lives should stretch
Without some pleasure now.
He is just smitten, isnt he?
Yes, smitten. But it seems more than just that too. "love of Love" and "lives should stretch/without some pleasure" Antony is absorbed with the pleasure of it. He has lived his life as a soldier, which is to say he has had to deny himself physical comforts and the easy life of court. Now he does not "a minute of [their] lives" to go by without pleasure. The change must be radical to his constitution, and at his age (upper middle age) the luxerious life feels so much better to the body (and I'm not talking about sex here) than to a young person.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all :D), here I'm back with Willy.
I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct :nod:):
* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
* ANTONIUS forms an allience with LEPIDUS (due to the latter being rich, I think...)
* ANTONIUS, CAESAR and LEPIDUS reconcile & form a triumvirate
* ANTONIUS and CAESAR defeat Brutus and Cassius, the murderes of J. Caesar
* ANTONIUS meets CLEOPATRA at Cydnus
* Lucius (ANTONIUS'S brother) and Fulvia (ANTONIUS'S wife) prepare for war against CAESAR.
* Fulvia dies.
* ANTONIUS is married to OCTAVIA (CAESAR'S sister) to reconcile ANT. and CAESAR.
* CLEOPATRA gives birth to twins by ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS separates from OCTAVIA, returns to CLEOPATRA
* donations of Alexandria: ANTONIUS calls CLEOPATRA the "Queen of Kings" and CAESARION the "King of Kings" (thus kind of dividing the empire among them)
* upcoming war between CAESAR and ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS divorces OCTAVIA.
* battles of Actium and Alexandria: ANTONIUS is defeated.
* suicide of ANTONIA and CLEOPATRA.
Phew, what a story !
Thank you for sharing the beautiful painting, Petrarch's Love. With that notion of Antony resembling Mars and being called the "triple pillar of the world", and Cleopatra pictured as a seducing Venus, I think it adds something almost heroic and epic to the tragedy.
As to the first scene:
I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Quote:
PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;
Very good points there Virgil, i never even considered how his background as a soldier would fit into it:D :thumbs_up . You mention also how his age plays into his appreciation of his lifestyle. Maybe, since as a soldier he has experiencd near-death so many times, his fear of a lurking end(possibly a foreshadowing???from what i recall he commited suicide, right?) also causes him to "live it up" while he can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Wow, thanks Cookie! That was great! I learned quite a bit from that summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
Absolutely, she knows how to push his buttons. She can be really quite cruel sometimes. You almost have to wince for Antony. At the same time, I think something that's fantastic about this scene is that it both shows the way she exerts her power over Antony and the way she is simultaneously insecure and potentially at his mercy (though he doesn't realize it here). When she first berates him for blushing "when shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds," she's not only getting in a dig at him, but testing him to see if he really cares more for Fulvia than he does for her. Then when she turns around and says "Excellent falsehood!/ Why did he marry Fulvia and not love her?" she is not only needling him about his emotional relationship with his wife, but also betraying both her unease that he might actually still love Fulvia and her unease that perhaps he never did love Fulvia, since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'
perhaps the political initiative she exhibits in some lines serves as a contrast with the emotional insecurity you mentioned, that is exhibited in other lines.
Possibly her insecurity is also derived from her losing Ceaser and fear of losing Antony. As i mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps Antony is concentrating on love for his fear of death. In turn, Cleopatra could also fear their death, but takes a less doubting approach by trying to prevent it through political strategy and wariness. The age difference is signifigant in this contrast of solution to fear of death, as Cleopatra is younger and she has less of an idea that death is inevitable. Where as Antony is much older and has much more experience with death, and therefore is more accepting of his fate.
Schokokeks--Thanks for posting the chronology. That should be helpful for us. :)
Yes, that's another key point where the question of who Antony is crops up in this scene. I find the use of the word "property" here interesting. The primary meaning of property in this context is as a distinguishing quality or attribute. I think there's also still the secondary sense of "property" as something owned at play here as well, so that it suggests not only that he is without noble attributes he formerly had, but also no longer own himself.Quote:
I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):
Quote:
PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;
Yes quite a story. I love Roman history. From Republic to Empire to decline and fall of the west, and even a thousand years later the east. Very fascinating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
But Schoky, I had never seen before that Antony and Octavius faught prior to defeating the conspirators and that Octavius lost. Are you sure about that?
Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello. Now they have different other qualities too which of course makes the plays different. Here in this play I think Cleopatra is a Shakespeare manipulator type.
Yes, I agree here too. There is a sense of insecurity with Cleopatra, and it's not in her social skills but her political status. The Roman empire is at the foot of her shores and she doesn't have the power to fight them. From a political point of view her only hope is to divide the Romans and place her hopes on Antony.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
shall we start on scene 2?
Indeed she is the penultimate femme fatale Virgil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Oops, I was writing faster than I was thinking last night. I meant Iago of the Othello play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, and if you wished to start, you didn't need to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
Scene two divides into two parts.
Part 1: Cleopatra's attendants bantering with the soothsayer
Part 2: Antony and the news from Rome from several different messengers.
As to part 1, I'm intrigued by Cleo's two female attendants, Charmian and Iras in how they parallel and contrast Cleopatra. But I think the most important function of this episode is to contrast the Roman milieu with that of the Egyptian milieu. What we have here is playfulness and sexual banter.
As to part 2, we see Antony apart from Cleopatra, and here he demonstrates his command. He is the soldier in charge, makes calculated decisions. He is in his natural element. He hears disturbing political news.
He is strong here, but if you take those very words and project them into his relationship with Cleo, you see how opposite he is there. He is flattered by her, and he knows she manipulates him with lies. And as we see in the play, his past with her is not done. He returns to her.Quote:
Messenger
The nature of bad news infects the teller.
MARK ANTONY
When it concerns the fool or coward. On:
Things that are past are done with me. 'Tis thus:
Who tells me true, though in his tale lie death,
I hear him as he flatter'd.
Thanks for bringing that into question, Virg. I had missed seeing that. There was some very complicated disorder after Julius Caesar's death, and Antony and Octavian were certainly unfriendly for awhile. Antony pretty much ignored Octavian coming to town and Octavian had to prove himself which involved stealing some of Antony's troops and some battles between his troops and Antony's, as well as a lot of other complicated martial and political moves that I don't remember offhand. There was a bit of a power struggle between the two men, and they were both dealing with the anti-caesarian factions at the same time, but I'm not sure I would have thought of it as a civil war, or maybe what I mean is that I wouldn't have thought of it as a major civil war. I don't think you could say that Octavian lost anything in the period just prior to forming the triumvirate, since he was in control of Rome at the time.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks View Post
Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.
I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):
* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
Yes quite a story. I love Roman history. From Republic to Empire to decline and fall of the west, and even a thousand years later the east. Very fascinating.
But Schoky, I had never seen before that Antony and Octavius faught prior to defeating the conspirators and that Octavius lost. Are you sure about that?
Edit: I found this biography of Caesar Augustus (aka Octavian) online, which details the events with more clarity than I can. The description of the events leading up to the formation of the triumvirate is under the heading "Entrance into Politics: April 44-November 43 BC." http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm
For anyone interested, this is another good site with chronologies and information on the Roman Empire from the founding to the fall.
http://www.roman-empire.net/
Yes, Petrarch, your description of the events is my recollection. They were basicaly unfriendly and rivals, but had the mutual interst of driving off the conspirators and so worked together.
I think "reltationship skills" is a great phrase for talking about Antony and Cleopatra. I'll have to keep that in mind when I teach it. Of course, now I'm imagining what these two would look like in couples therapy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, I think you've got two great points here. The merging of the amorous and the political realms is certainly another central theme in this play,and I think you're right about Cleo's insecurity as to her political status.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
I like your suggestion that both of them might also be a bit skittish about the possibility of impending death and thus more likely to throw themselves into amorous pursuits. I'm not sure about the contrast in age being especially significant in this regard though. Cleopatra may not have seen the amount of death that a veteran soldier would have, and she is certainly younger than Antony. She was 39 when she died and the play covers roughly ten years of history, so she's about 29 or 30 at the begginning of the play, while Antony would be about 43 (he was 53 when he died). All the same, I think she's a pretty experienced and sophisticated woman of the world at this point. She's been a wife, a mother and the mistress of two powerful men, one of whom was assasinated.
As for scene two, from an annotator's point of view, that was a lot of work. I had no idea how many bawdy innuendos could be packed into a single line until it suddenly became my job to explain them all in footnotes. :lol: There's a lot of great stuff going on in this scene. As Virgil points out, it's divided between Cleopatra's lascivious world on the one hand, and the call to Rome and duty (along with regret at the passing of Fulvia) on the other. The character who's present in both parts of the scene is Enobarbus, who has that great line, "Hush! Here comes Antony" when Cleopatra enters the scene. It's also in Enobarbus' dialogue that the sort of banter and sexual innuendo that we saw among Cleopatra's attendents carries over into the second half of the scene. He keeps up the naughty puns and bawdy suggestions until Antony finally re-asserts his position as a commander, declaring "No more light answers..." Enobarbus has been freely engaging in locker room style humor with Antony the lover, and we can see that Antony is returning to the role of Antony the general when he puts Enobarbus back in the position of the loyal follower who says to his commander only "I shall do 't."
Hmm, I'm no warfare expert whatsoever, but ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
... this is what I'd call a war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's first link
Yup, you're right, I didn't remember that correctly. Thanks for clarifying ! :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Schoky - I think you're confusing the early days with the war between them that ultimately occurs. We're questioning whether once the conspirators killed Julius Ceasar, Octavius and Antony faught. We're saying that they didn't fight, despite not liking each other, then they share the empire as part of the second triumpherate, and after that they fight a war, which we see in the play. I hope that made sense.
I agree Virgil. The servants in Shakespeare's plays often serve as a cultural insight, but let us also consider their impact as a dramatic element. Shakespeare often uses the role of the servants to provide comedy relief when the protagonist or other relatively signifigant characters were experiencing an intense or tragic set of events. There is lots of use of more crude humor and witty banter between Charmian and Iras. Since Shakespeare had to appeal to both elite and poor audiences, he had to use lots of contrast of classes to appeal to all aspects of his audience. The use of light humor eases the audience into the second part of the scene which contains very dramatic news and philosophical discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
:lol: Comic relief is in every one of Shakespeare's plays....always a key factor in contrast and to appeal to the wide audience in Shakespeare's era. I agree with Virgil and with dramasnot. Both bring up good points.
I am just popping in, so I won't lose touch with the Shakespeare discussion group. Your discussions so far seem to be quite interesting. I have been reading them off and on this week. Wish I could participate, but unfortunately, I did not read the play. Next one I will join in hopefully.:D
Yes, but it's more than comic releif. It establishes a contrast between the exotic, pleasure obsessed egyptians and the serious stoic-like Romans. Yes that stoic thing comes out again. I think that was Shakespeare's view of most Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
The most interesting passage of scene two is where he finds out of Fulvia's death:
What are the emotions here: resgination, and guilt. The politics of the previous messenger first puts him in a serious state, and the emotions here turn his constitution around. He must this enchanting queen break off. Despite what will be Cleo's reaction, he will leave.Quote:
Second Messenger
Fulvia thy wife is dead.
MARK ANTONY
Where died she?
Second Messenger
In Sicyon:
Her length of sickness, with what else more serious
Importeth thee to know, this bears.
Gives a letter
MARK ANTONY
Forbear me.
Exit Second Messenger
There's a great spirit gone! Thus did I desire it:
What our contempt doth often hurl from us,
We wish it ours again; the present pleasure,
By revolution lowering, does become
The opposite of itself: she's good, being gone;
The hand could pluck her back that shoved her on.
I must from this enchanting queen break off:
Ten thousand harms, more than the ills I know,
My idleness doth hatch.
Hi Virgil!:wave:
I like what you posted above. We also have a contrast of personality in Antony here. Before he seemed uncaring of politics and distracted by infatuation for Cleopatra, where as she played his more serious, work-minded counterpart. Now there is a reversal of roles, instead of emotion occupying Antony over proffesional obligation, it is that with Cleopatra. Her love for Antony and jealousy for his wife, even deceased, is prioritized over what she knows is his political duty. Where as Antony suddenly thrusts his consideration for Cleopatra's feelings aside in order to take on his role of grieving Roman husband. Funny enough, and i hope I'm overboard here, even when given an example from each, we see the difference in both Cleopatra and Antony's political priortization. Cleopatra is more interested in the issues of war and conflict, where as Antony only brushes off his romance for a more social occupation to preserve his good name.
Good points Drama. Whatever happened to Sleepywitch. She started this all, and has never showed up? :lol: But I'm glad I'm reading it. I'll have comments on scene three, a very interesting scene, a bit later.
Scene three starts off by Shakespeare dramatizing Cleopatra's skills at manipulating men. She debates it with Charmian, who i take as a lesser Cleopatra, very good maipulating skills herself, but not quite the Queen.
That last line by Charmian turns out to be wrong. While Antony does leave, he does return and he never hates Cleopatra. Look at the lies she wants her servants to tell Antony, and yet, in this very scene she has the gall to call Antony "the greatest liar." I love this dialogue between Antony and Cleopatra. Antony can't get a word in. He's on the defensive the whole time. [Frankly I know how this feels, :lol: powerful women can put men on the defensive.] Look at how Antony can't get a full reply in (I've shortened Cleo's parts for brevity):Quote:
CLEOPATRA
Where is he?
CHARMIAN
I did not see him since.
CLEOPATRA
See where he is, who's with him, what he does:
I did not send you: if you find him sad,
Say I am dancing; if in mirth, report
That I am sudden sick: quick, and return.
Exit ALEXAS
CHARMIAN
Madam, methinks, if you did love him dearly,
You do not hold the method to enforce
The like from him.
CLEOPATRA
What should I do, I do not?
CHARMIAN
In each thing give him way, cross him nothing.
CLEOPATRA
Thou teachest like a fool; the way to lose him.
CHARMIAN
Tempt him not so too far; I wish, forbear:
In time we hate that which we often fear.
And in the version I've seen, Antony practically screams that last line to get the initiative.:lol: Poor fellow.:DQuote:
MARK ANTONY
What's the matter?
CLEOPATRA
I know, by that same eye, there's some good news....
MARK ANTONY
The gods best know,--
CLEOPATRA
O, never was there queen...
MARK ANTONY
Cleopatra,--
CLEOPATRA
Why should I think you can be mine and true...
MARK ANTONY
Most sweet queen,--
CLEOPATRA
Nay, pray you, seek no colour for your going,
...Art turn'd the greatest liar.
MARK ANTONY
How now, lady!
CLEOPATRA
I would I had thy inches; thou shouldst know
There were a heart in Egypt.
MARK ANTONY
Hear me, queen:
And when Antony finally tells her that Fulvia has died, Cleo comes up with one of the most classic of responses:
"Now I see, I see" :lol: She's turned this around several hundred degrees. She actually makes him feel guilty double time, for Fulvia and for herself. Just think of the possible alternative responses she could have had to the news of his wife's death: (1) she could have been elated, because now he's free, (2) she could have felt compassion because afterall his wife, who must have meant something to him, has died. But what she makes him feel guilty because he's not contrite enough and then she projects that this same insensitivity will occur when she dies. She's a master chess player!!:lol: His head must be spinning. :DQuote:
CLEOPATRA
O most false love!
Where be the sacred vials thou shouldst fill
With sorrowful water? Now I see, I see,
In Fulvia's death, how mine received shall be.
All I can say is that i thank God my wife doesn't have these relationship skills. :lol:
And to cap scene three off, when Antony firmly says that he will leave, Cleo cannot find the right words. Her wit fails her and she breaks down into what she really feels for hin.
Beneath her cunning games is real love for him. And he returns that love. This makes it so complex. Despite , or should I say, inspite of the politics and cunning games and relationship power struggle, they really do love each other. This makes it so real. Middle aged people bring all of their hang ups that they've acquired over their lives and complicate their love.Quote:
MARK ANTONY
I'll leave you, lady.
CLEOPATRA
Courteous lord, one word.
Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.
MARK ANTONY
But that your royalty
Holds idleness your subject, I should take you
For idleness itself.
CLEOPATRA
'Tis sweating labour
To bear such idleness so near the heart
As Cleopatra this. But, sir, forgive me;
Since my becomings kill me, when they do not
Eye well to you: your honour calls you hence;
Therefore be deaf to my unpitied folly.
And all the gods go with you! upon your sword
Sit laurel victory! and smooth success
Be strew'd before your feet!
MARK ANTONY
Let us go. Come;
Our separation so abides, and flies,
That thou, residing here, go'st yet with me,
And I, hence fleeting, here remain with thee. Away!
I guess I should know. ;)
wow! looks like youve made great progess for A&C Virgil. I havent got to Scene 3 yet but ill read it by the end of today and hopefully have some comments too.
Fantastic points Virgil! :D I just read the scene myself and was cracking up all along. It makes you think what the intended reading might have been. Was her manipulation and cunningness supportive of a positive reading on her behalf and therefore more feminist, or is the portryel of her character meniacal and evil and therefore more misogynous?
Then was the time for words: no going then;
Eternity was in our lips and eyes,
Bliss in our brows' bent; none our parts so poor,
But was a race of heaven: they are so still,
Or thou, the greatest soldier of the world,
Art turn'd the greatest liar.
Look how she manipulates his love and contradicts her earlier opinions we observed in the first scene! Before politics and work meant the world to her and she found Antony's puppy eyes a useless distraction. Now she pits his fears of letting life pass him by against him.She makes a single trip sound like the death to all emotion and passion between them, playing on both his personal fears , feelings and possibly his carnal desires. I think there may also be a sexual level to her installment of fear."none our parts so poor" Any double meaning there?
What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.
Antony-- Our Italy
Shines o'er with civil swords: Sextus Pompeius
Makes his approaches to the port of Rome:
Equality of two domestic powers
Breed scrupulous faction: the hated, grown to strength,
Are newly grown to love: the condemn'd Pompey
Look at that! He's playing the same game agaisnt her now that she played on him the first scene. Trying to educate her of the importance of his actions to change her own opinion. This may be a somewhat feminist reading, but perhaps it shows how he thinks her anger only sprouts from her political ignorance and he must enlighten her to calm it. And even more so, that might be exactly what Cleopatra wanted. Perhaps he's just marching into her manipulative web. She could be feigning dumb to evoke his sympathy and affection by promoting his sense of manhood and superiorty over her.
Antony--I go from hence
Thy soldier, servant; making peace or war
As thou affect'st.
*makes whipping motion*
Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.
She doesnt seem satisfied with anything. What kind of insecurities dwell in that royal mind to sprout such a black and white, all or nothing view?
Well, from his point of view, the situation is real and threatning to Rome. I'm not sure he's playing a game. Whether she undertands and plays dumb or she doesn't I don't know. Antony feels the need to rationalize it to her, probably because she is the stronger will of the two. In Roman literature this echoes Virgil's Aeneid, where Aeneas leaves Dido. There Aeneas does it out of his strong will.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
I guess that would be in the eye of the beholder. To me it's somewhere in between. To me she's powerful, but she's also cunning in a "feminine" sort of way. She's Cleopatra!Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
That's a very interesting point. I was just thinking of the binary situation between Rome and Egypt. I was going to bring that out in the differences between scenes 4 and 5.Quote:
What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.
Well, err...no, not really :D. The source I quoted in my last post with Antonius's and Octavian's army movements does refer to the time before the defeat of the conspirators. (Even at that early point, Antonius's troops weren't exactly loyal, as later in the ultimate war between them they again weren't). They reconciled after Antonius suffered some kind of defeat (and here I previously had confused him with Octi), and got rid of the bad boys together:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
But never mind :).Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm