Horatio

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am jealous of you, Arlene, but not all the cooking you have to do this coming week....Holidays are fun, yeah for the guys!

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Actually, I love the cooking, Janine. I'm not a great cook but I find it fun when I have the chance to play with it. I get too little chance to do it and I've always had fun cooking holiday dinners. Sure, it takes preparation time and work, but it's also endlessly creative. And this year, since my new grandson is allergic to both eggs and milk, and my daughter is breast-feeding so has to be careful of both in her diet as well, I'm faced with the challenge of re-creating some of my favorite dishes to conform to their needs. So I'm changing my "usual" recipes and approaching my turkey from a totally different direction as well as making a totally different "stuffing" that won't be stuffed in the turkey but cooked separately - the Food Channel gives great ideas! I love Rachel Rae and Emeril for all the inspiration they give.

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(sorry, Virgil). I am jealous of you, Arlene, for having a grand-baby. I want one badly and may be getting one next year. There has to be some compensation for being this age!

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Grandchildren are wonderful! Actually, I have four others, but they are not biologically mine. Mine is a second marriage for both myself and my husband. His three children have given us four wonderful grandchildren - two boys and two girls - who live, unfortunately, in Florida, far from our NJ home, so we don't get to see them very often. I love them dearly, but somehow there is a difference when you actually see the child of your own child. My newest grandchild is my "baby" daughter's son and he has bewitched me since the day he was born. A bit closer (in MA) than our other grandchildren, we get to see him more often - between us going up there and them coming here it's usually at least every couple of months or so - so I have had the chance to watch him grow in a way we didn't have with our other grandchildren, and it has been a joy. I hope you do get the chance to experience it soon!

By the way, I don't need any "compensations" for my age. I just turned 59 and I am enjoying every minute of it. I wouldn't want to be 20 again for a million dollars! I like myself soooooo much better now than I did when I was younger. Every day I learn more, about myself and the world I live in, and I have the experience and the knowledge now to really appreciate it and enjoy it, which I certainly didn't when I was younger. Sure there are challenges to getting older, but there are with any age. And I find that the rewards far outweigh the difficulties. And grandchildren are just one of the many "compensations" that I find. The most exciting thing is my increasing ability to explore my own interests and not have to put everyone else's welfare ahead of my own. For years, as a daughter, wife and mother, I have lived for other people. Now I get to live for myself and pursue my own passions like theatre and Shakespeare. And thankfully I have a husband who totally supports me in that.

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Well, the debate rages on.... OR are we going to change gears and try to figure out what kind of a person Horatio really is....origins, personality, etc? Will be interesting to see where this goes from this point on. Arlene should you start a new thread on that topic?

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I don't think it necessarily comes under a different thread, Janine. The original thread name was just Horatio and I thought it was to explore his character. It was Virgil who asked the question about Stoicism and that is just one aspect of his character. I've asked my question several times in the thread. It's just that we have yet to explore it because we got caught up in the Stoicism discussion. I can start a new thread if you think it would be better, but the question is already here... it just needs to be addressed.

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We might all need to turn off our computers this holiday week :crash: So much to do, so little time!

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Nonsense! My computer is always on. When I'm doing something else it waits patiently for me. But no matter how much there is to do, I can't and don't work at it constantly. My computer and discussions like this is my downtime. I may not answer ever question immediately, but I do get to them. No need to stop talking, just be patient in waiting for replies until we get to them. :)

Virgil's done a good job of bringing out some definitions of stoicism for us to work with, but I also think that MsD's and Janine's objections are valid in that not all antique Roman's are necessarily stoics (nor, of course, are all stoics necessarily antique Romans--does anyone else feel like they're back in geometry doing logic proofs?:lol: ). I think I'll stick with the middle ground, which is that I don't think therere's the textual evidence to say with certaintly that Horatio is a Stoic or is meant to embody Stoic philosophy, but I do think that his character definately has stoical aspects.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But quick question then if you don't think Horatio is a follower of stoicism. When Hamlet tells him, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamt of," what is the philosophy he is referring to?

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Originally Posted by msdirector

As for Horatio's "philosophy" - Hamlet speaks to Horatio in Act I, scene 5 in answer to Horatio's:
"O day and night, but this is wondrous strange."
(in itself hardly a dispassionate response to the Ghost's voice telling them to "Swear by his sword.")
To Horatio's exclamation, Hamlet replies:
"And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

The reference is NOT to any one particular philosophy such as Stoicism. It is to a reference to Horatio's belief in learning and science as the guiding force in the Universe. Horatio entered the play as a disbeliever in the supernatural. When asked to come to witness the Ghost, he never believes it is real. In fact, Marcellus says:

"Horatio says 'tis but our fantasy,
And will not let belief take hold of him,
Touching this dread sight twice seen of us.
Therefore I have entreated him along
With us to watch the minutes of this night,
That if again this apparition come
He may approve our eyes and speak to it."

To which Horatio replies:
"Tush, tush, 'twill not appear."

This has nothing to do with Stoicism or any other philosophy of behavior or emotional control. It is about Horatio's belief in science and disbelief in religion and the supernatural. And that belief is totally shaken when Horatio actually does see the Ghost. THAT'S the "philosophy" that Hamlet is referring to.

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I would like to add to the above exchange on this famous line, that, though it is possible that a specific philosophy is referred to, it is more likely that this is a common misinterpretation among modern readers because of changes in our perception of the language. The most generally accepted reading of the line is that the "your" is being used in an indefinate form (which was common for Shakespeare's period but not too common now) rather than to indicate Horatio in particular. Since I can't think of a great modern example for the indefinate usage of "your" I've made up the following one:

"You have your stuffed turkeys and your unstuffed turkeys, and they're all fine birds, but your stuffed turkeys are the tastiest."

In my (very silly) example "your turkeys" is not meant to refer to Virgil's turkeys or MsDirector's turkeys in particular (even if I am addressing Virgil or MsDirector), but to the turkeys of the population in general. This was a fairly common construction in the Elizabethan/Jacobean period (I'm assuming it's some kind of an overlap from when English had more formally defined singular and plural second person pronouns, but I don't know), so the likely usage of the "your" in the lines "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/ Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" is probably a reference to philosophy in general rather than a philosophy Horatio in particular posesses.

The word "philosophy" also commonly had a much more general definition in this period than we usually think of it having today, and so philosophy could be used to broadly mean "learning," "knowledge," or "education." We still see this broader use of the term in the title of the PhD degree, which means, of course, "Doctor of Philosophy" and can apply to those with knowledge and education in a wide range of fields, not only the philosophy department. ;)

:yawnb: I'm back finally - the site must have been down all night(?)
Arlene, I know all about "downtime". First time I was trying to post it would not go through - that was in the midst of making my dinner - very frustrating. No way will I turn my computer off really, even on Thanksgiving day! I was just joking about abandoning our computers this week. Mine is on all day long, since I got broadband. I am a super multi-tasker these days, isn't everyone? I am quite addicted to the internet and computer, but I love it!!! Yes, I like my age, too, and I keep finding more and more to pursue. It is wonderful!...Like Lit Net.
I know it must be great to have a grandchild. My son always said he wouldn't have children, but now he is over 30 and he and his wife, of a year, are changing their tune. I am thrilled.

For now I read Petrarch's comments - I forgot that the thread was just called "Horatio", therefore we can definitely stick to this thread and see what happens....but Virgil says he is still not done with the word "stoic"....sigh, sigh....

Well, I agree with P and quote here here:

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The most generally accepted reading of the line is that the "your" is being used in an indefinate form (which was common for Shakespeare's period but not too common now) rather than to indicate Horatio in particular. Since I can't think of a great modern example for the indefinate usage of "your" I've made up the following one:

"You have your stuffed turkeys and your unstuffed turkeys, and they're all fine birds, but your stuffed turkeys are the tastiest."

In my (very silly) example "your turkeys" is not meant to refer to Virgil's turkeys or MsDirector's turkeys in particular (even if I am addressing Virgil or MsDirector), but to the turkeys of the population in general. This was a fairly common construction in the Elizabethan/Jacobean period (I'm assuming it's some kind of an overlap from when English had more formally defined singular and plural second person pronouns, but I don't know), so the likely usage of the "your" in the lines "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/ Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" is probably a reference to philosophy in general rather than a philosophy Horatio in particular posesses.

The word "philosophy" also commonly had a much more general definition in this period than we usually think of it having today, and so philosophy could be used to broadly mean "learning," "knowledge," or "education." We still see this broader use of the term in the title of the PhD degree, which means, of course, "Doctor of Philosophy" and can apply to those with knowledge and education in a wide range of fields, not only the philosophy department.
When I read the line or heard it spoken - "your philosophy", my first inclination was to think of it in prescisely this way - not personal to Horatio, but rather as a more general figure of speach that included anyone.

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Love your turkey analogy....very fitting, indeed! and .....Virgil, you are no turkey! :D

He did a damn good job on that bridge.

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Originally Posted by penelopea

He did a damn good job on that bridge.

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Afraid I don't quite get your drift? :(

Hi Janine. How are you?

Good, ready to eat Thanksgiving dinner! YUM!!! Where have you been? Did you read all my emails I sent you? I sent photos of my artwork - just like Lawrence I am awaiting some kind of review. If you hated my work, I will probably have to send you a quote of Lawrence's!

Read your short story - liked it....will go into that later on. Got the DVD yesterday, and will watch soon. Thanks so much! Another Hamlet verison is always nice to own.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

sorry ,sarcasm.Lays of Ancient Rome.

I don't get it but that's ok

Americans dont do irony

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Originally Posted by Penelopea

Americans dont do irony

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They do, but like any other people they need to be familiar with a text in order to get the joke. I don't know that I've spoken to too many on either side of the pond who regard Lays of Ancient Rome as something you can neccessarily take for granted that people have read (perhaps I'm wrong and it's basic reading in some English schools?).

Janine, I believe Penelopea was refering to a poem by Thomas Babbington Macaulay, which relates the story of the Roman Horatius, who was famous for defending a bridge against the Etruscans. Here's the wikipedia page on the Horatius story, which contains a link to Macaulay's poem so that all we Yanks can be in on the joke too :) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles

Petrarch, Hi, how was your Thanksgiving dinner? Ours was great! Just came on here to digest - how about you? Thanks for the information in Wikipedia. I have not read it yet, but think then I might get the joke. Sorry, Penelopea. I think Americans do do irony and sarcasm quite well, actually. Wait till Virgil joins our thread again. He will probably give you a run for your money!

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

They do, but like any other people they need to be familiar with a text in order to get the joke. I don't know that I've spoken to too many on either side of the pond who regard Lays of Ancient Rome as something you can neccessarily take for granted that people have read (perhaps I'm wrong and it's basic reading in some English schools?).

Janine, I believe Penelopea was refering to a poem by Thomas Babbington Macaulay, which relates the story of the Roman Horatius, who was famous for defending a bridge against the Etruscans. Here's the wikipedia page on the Horatius story, which contains a link to Macaulay's poem so that all we Yanks can be in on the joke too :) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles

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Thanks Petrarch. Now I get it. I didn't know that legend.

BTW, I just read an overview of Petrarch's life. I had always imagined him sort of like a younger Dante. But no. He was quite a character, sort of like the rock star of his day. ;)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Good, ready to eat Thanksgiving dinner! YUM!!! Where have you been? Did you read all my emails I sent you? I sent photos of my artwork - just like Lawrence I am awaiting some kind of review. If you hated my work, I will probably have to send you a quote of Lawrence's!

Read your short story - liked it....will go into that later on. Got the DVD yesterday, and will watch soon. Thanks so much! Another Hamlet verison is always nice to own.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

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Hi Janine. I've been somewhat preoccupied. Yes I saw your art work and I love it. I think it's very interesting. I'm impressed. Glad you got the disk. If there were other emails after your artwork, I have not gotten to them yet.

Virgil, Glad you got them ok: I thought you may have deleted them by accident. Thanks for the good review.:thumbs_up Whew...I was sweating that one....I won't have to curse you out like Lawrence. Did you really love my artwork? Artists are so darn sensitive:bawling:, you know...
I know - everyone was preoccupied this week...with Turkey day approaching. Did it take you long to pluck yours? Hope you enjoyed your dinner - turkey and pasta...etc.... I imagine!~
Petrarch, I read the Wikipedia article and now I understand "the bridge" referred to by Penelopea. P, since the guy holding the bridge drifted down the river and may have drown, I think I may have a good pun there when I said "I don't get your drift". I was closer than I knew to the truth.:D

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, Glad you got them ok: I thought you may have deleted them by accident. Thanks for the good review.:thumbs_up Whew...I was sweating that one....I won't have to curse you out like Lawrence. Did you really love my artwork? Artists are so darn sensitive:bawling:, you know...
I know - everyone was preoccupied this week...with Turkey day approaching. Did it take you long to pluck yours? Hope you enjoyed your dinner - turkey and pasta...etc.... I imagine!~

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Of course I loved it. Very sensitive and lyrical, if I can apply that to art work. Your sketch of a ballarina was beautiful. I am impressed. I also like the tone of the colors. I wish I could see it clearer, but what I could see very good.

Virgil, Thank you very much! You put that so poetically. I appreciate your opinions and comments. I liked your short story, too. Interesting how you knew so much about a machine shop and the references to the father were of particular interest. I may try to post some of my art on my blog, when I make one up. Is it hard to make the blog? Never did one before. I will try to get clearer photos of my art first.

Meant to add - just looked at a segment of the Hamlet. Jacobi is great - he always is!

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, Thank you very much! You put that so poetically. I appreciate your opinions and comments. I liked your short story, too. Interesting how you knew so much about a machine shop and the references to the father were of particular interest. I may try to post some of my art on my blog, when I make one up. Is it hard to make the blog? Never did one before. I will try to get clearer photos of my art first.

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I'm a mechanical engineer. I've been to quite a few machine shops. ;)

It was easy to do the blog. I would be nice to have your art work there.

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. Enjoy Jacobi's performance. I feel it is the best Hamlet of all time.

I am not watching it right now. It won't load in my DVD, but that is because it has been acting up lately; I may go and buy a new one soon. I had it on the computer and it looked pretty good and the sound was syncronized with the mouths, so that was a first - I've had problems with that before, too. I will watch it downstairs on the Sony DVD player - better player, but not tonight.
Seems we are the only nuts on here right now...everyone has triptaphane from their turkeys and are falling asleep! :sick: I am leaving now, too.... I am going to watch another movie and relax.
Yes, probably the best Hamlet is Jacobi, can see how Branagh was influenced, interesting that Jacobi was his mentor. He is mesmerizing to watch - saw the encounter in the woods with the ghost, "to be or not to be", and scene with Ophelia - great stuff !!! Thanks again!:)

Oh my, we seem to have taken a little Thanksgiving Day break from poor "Horatio". Should we revamp, and ask another question on his behalf, or follow the one that Petrarch or Arlene (? can't remember now) has layed out -.....just who is Horatio?..... and if you say a Stoic, Virgil, I will scream!...:lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oh my, we seem to have taken a little Thanksgiving Day break from poor "Horatio". Should we revamp, and ask another question on his behalf, or follow the one that Petrarch or Arlene (? can't remember now) has layed out -.....just who is Horatio?..... and if you say a Stoic, Virgil, I will scream!...:lol:

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Ok, some seem to think he's not a Dane. That seems nebulous to me. I know he's unsure of the drinking problems of Denmark, but is this enough to say he's not native? He seems to be at home. When Hamlet is sent off to England, doesn't Horatio stay behind? And why do the guards ask for Horatio to see the ghost before Hamlet? If he's not from Denmark, where is he from? What's he doing in Denmark if he's not a native?

I agree with you about Horatio being a Dane. I just don't see the indication that he is not one. He seems to have gone to the same school as Hamlet and that is how they know each other, but he seems perfectly at home in the castle and seems to fit in well and be trusted by everyone. Do you think the royalty would trust him so if he were foreign? I don't - not in the time the play is set. He, also is concerned over the building up of defenses and seems to take that personally. Perhaps he is a guest at the castle, but not a non-native to Denmark. Hamlet seems to have gotten along well with everyone prior to the marriage of his mother and the ghost requesting revenge. He seems to have been well liked and attracted many friends...some apparently at school. It would make sense that he meet up with Horatio there and formed a bond of friendship. He easily could have lived in another part of Denmark prior to meeting Hamlet. Or another theory could be that he was a childhood friend, but if that be true his family might be present also in the play.

Hey, I'm glad someone agrees with me on something. :D

I thought you liked to be combatant! Hey, I must have read that in your interview. Can't find it in your profile. Anyway, give it time.....someone is bound to disagree with us...like Arlene or Petrarch. Then the fun will begin! "Calling in the opponents!"

Why do people care where Horatio is from? The first few times I read the play that question never occurred to me, and I’m kind of unsure how it came into being.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

When Hamlet is sent off to England, doesn't Horatio stay behind?

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Most likely because Claudius doesn’t see the need to kill or exile Horatio. The less witnesses, the better – the neater the better.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

And why do the guards ask for Horatio to see the ghost before Hamlet?

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They aren’t friendly enough with Hamlet to approach him directly. Horatio is a similarly educated scholar, and a more common man. He is, for lack of a better term, a “good substitute” for Hamlet to them. Asking Horatio is also a preliminary, almost cautionsary step. They wanted yet another person to observe the strange appearance of the Ghost – perhaps they needed Horatio to talk to Hamlet as well, he wouldn’t have trusted them.


I assumed Horatio was a Dane simply because of the events in Act 1 scene 1 – Marcellus openly asks Barnardo and Horatio who can tell him why they have been having to watch the perimeter every night, why the country has been making weapons and training warriors, making the night “joint labourer” with the day, etc. Horatio responds with the following:

That can I.
At least the whisper goes so: our last king,
whose image even but now appeared to us,

and forward. He proceeds to draw upon his education for a little coloring of his explanation of the “rummage” in the land. However, it is merely the “our” above that leads me to believe he is a native.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I thought you liked to be combatant! Hey, I must have read that in your interview. Can't find it in your profile. Anyway, give it time.....someone is bound to disagree with us...like Arlene or Petrarch. Then the fun will begin! "Calling in the opponents!"

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I'm not sure where I said that either, but I did say it. I don't know if I can wait until someone disagrees with me. :D

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Most likely because Claudius doesn’t see the need to kill or exile Horatio. The less witnesses, the better – the neater the better.

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Yes, I agree. My point was that if he were simply Hamlet's guest, he would have either gone with Hamlet or went home.

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They aren’t friendly enough with Hamlet to approach him directly. Horatio is a similarly educated scholar, and a more common man. He is, for lack of a better term, a “good substitute” for Hamlet to them. Asking Horatio is also a preliminary, almost cautionsary step. They wanted yet another person to observe the strange appearance of the Ghost – perhaps they needed Horatio to talk to Hamlet as well, he wouldn’t have trusted them.

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Quite right. And so would they have trusted someone who is not Danish? Unlikely.

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I assumed Horatio was a Dane simply because of the events in Act 1 scene 1 – Marcellus openly asks Barnardo and Horatio who can tell him why they have been having to watch the perimeter every night, why the country has been making weapons and training warriors, making the night “joint labourer” with the day, etc. Horatio responds with the following:

That can I.
At least the whisper goes so: our last king,
whose image even but now appeared to us,

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Excellent!

You know what I've wanted to start? Just like there is a monthly book forum read, I've thought about a monthly Shakespeare play that we read and comment on act by act. Something like an act per week. Any interest in participating?

I'd be interested. However, depending on how rigorous a schedule I construct for myself next semester, I may not be available to participate as much as I'd like.

I think that we should mix up comedies, tragedies and histories as much as possible. Or perhaps eliminate the histories entirely - I'd always planned on reading those consecutively.

Let's just wait a few months before arranging to read Hamlet. ;)

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I'd be interested. However, depending on how rigorous a schedule I construct for myself next semester, I may not be available to participate as much as I'd like.

I think that we should mix up comedies, tragedies and histories as much as possible. Or perhaps eliminate the histories entirely - I'd always planned on reading those consecutively.

Let's just wait a few months before arranging to read Hamlet. ;)

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I think one act per week isn't too rigorous. In five weeks we will have completed a play and we could spend another week for further discussion. That's six weeks per play, or if that is still too tough we could go one play every two months. I'm not sure how we would select the play. Any suggestions?

As far as the debate as to Horatio's origins, I think the main cause for doubting he's a Dane are the lines from Act I, scene iv. The lines come just after Hamlet has described drinking customs at the Danish court:

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Hor. Is it a custom?

Ham. Ay marry is't,
But to my mind, though I am native here
And to the manner born...

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These lines seem to suggest that Horatio is not native, as Hamlet is, nor to the manner born, and some readers, comparing these lines with the reference to "our king" that Shoutgrace brought up, have found this a problematic contradiction in the characterization of Horatio. I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king." I have to say though, that it's not a problem that I've thought through much. Like others here, I doubt I even noticed this issue when first reading the play, though I have to admit that I always feel as though there's something of the outsider about Horatio. Perhaps this is the effect of his being so much more rational and less passionately involved than most of the other characters, which makes him seem less a part of the Denmark where something's gone rotten. He's also Hamlet's university friend--like the chum he's brought back to his highly disfunctional home for the holidays--which gives him the air of being an outsider. These are really ways he's seperate from the others in terms of character though, more than it proves anything one way or the other about him being or not being Danish, and of course it's entirely possible he's a Dane, but just new to the Danish court (perhaps a scholar moving up in the world through his friendship with the prince). There's so little textual evidence about Horatio that it's hard to say with any certainty what his backstory is.

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You know what I've wanted to start? Just like there is a monthly book forum read, I've thought about a monthly Shakespeare play that we read and comment on act by act. Something like an act per week. Any interest in participating?

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That sounds like a great idea, Virg. :idea: If we did this, could I be hideously selfish and request one of the earlier histories or comedies early in the new year? That's what I'll be teaching and it would be super to have a place to discuss one of the plays my students will be reading. If people here have strong feelings about reading a particular play though, I'll be glad to discuss any of the plays.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

As far as the debate as to Horatio's origins, I think the main cause for doubting he's a Dane are the lines from Act I, scene iv. The lines come just after Hamlet has described drinking customs at the Danish court:

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To me, the key words there are "the Danish Court" - a relatively restricted area/group that Horatio may not have had access to - though, come to think of it, where are they viewing this carousing from? The battlements? If it's any place like that, then anybody, down to the guards, could see this behaviour taking place (indeed making it evident that Horatio isn't a Dane).

Slightly off topic observation - I think this speech again evidences Hamlet's jumping to generalities. If Horatio is indeed a foreigner, then perhaps it isn't so clear that all foreigners think less of the Danish for being such "drunkards." Not everybody "cleps" the Danish so for this propensity to 'enjoy' :D alcohol - perhaps it is just another area of Claudius' character that Hamlet is finding fault in, and subsequently magnifying.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king."

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Well, that fits. :D

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Perhaps this is the effect of his being so much more rational and less passionately involved than most of the other characters, which makes him seem less a part of the Denmark where something's gone rotten.

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This is interesting too - it seems as if every character is effected by the "foul contagion" that is making Denmark such a weedy garden - though Horatio isn't? I do seem to remember getting the sense that he was almost "tolerating" Hamlet's mousetrap antics, especially around the time when Hamlet asked him (paraphrased) "Then saw you not his face?"

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

He's also Hamlet's university friend--like the chum he's brought back to his highly disfunctional home for the holidays--which gives him the air of being an outsider.

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Do you remember that business when Hamlet first greets Horatio, and he asks him (again, paraphrased) "What makes you from Wittenberg?" Horatio replies that he came to see the funeral, and of course Hamlet says "Prithee do not mock me, fellow, it was to see my mother's wedding." (and the bit about the cold baked meats, one of my favourites :D.) Anyhow, why did Horatio come from Wittenberg? To be with his friend through such harsh times?

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

These lines seem to suggest that Horatio is not native, as Hamlet is, nor to the manner born, and some readers, comparing these lines with the reference to "our king" that Shoutgrace brought up, have found this a problematic contradiction in the characterization of Horatio. I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king."

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You mean it's possible that Shakespeare made another mistake.:eek:

And in a "perfect" play such as Hamlet. :eek2: Such sacrilidge. :D

Actually if this is a mistake on Shakespeare's part, I would only label this as a slip rather than a flaw, like I did with the ghost. A slip is an error in keeping the facts straight rather than a flaw which is critical to the story.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

That sounds like a great idea, Virg. :idea: If we did this, could I be hideously selfish and request one of the earlier histories or comedies early in the new year? That's what I'll be teaching and it would be super to have a place to discuss one of the plays my students will be reading. If people here have strong feelings about reading a particular play though, I'll be glad to discuss any of the plays.

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No problem, Petrarch. How about we start in December with a classic and by mid January pick one that you will need? Is that OK. We need to establish rules on how to pick a play. I'm trying to wait until Janine and Arlene see this so we can get their thoughts into the mix. Just my management style. I'm a consensus builder rather than dictator. :D Just some insight into my work personality. ;)

I like the idea :idea:, Virgil. Smart thinking!

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I think one act per week isn't too rigorous. In five weeks we will have completed a play and we could spend another week for further discussion. That's six weeks per play, or if that is still too tough we could go one play every two months. I'm not sure how we would select the play. Any suggestions?

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I could do one act per week. We could try it and if it gets too demanding we could do the play in two months (after all we have to leave time to post, and first to think). Someone commented to leave out the histories. I would hate to see that done. I liked those emensely. True it is better to read them in order, but I read a few out of order ,and they were just as good, then went back later and read the ones that proceeded them in time-span. Most of the histories are tragedies, too. Hard to draw a definite line in Shakespeare and some of the comedies also have tragic, sad and profound elements. I sometimes hate the way the plays are categorized. I never saw the "Merchant of Venice" as a comedy, but that is usually the way it is listed....strange.

Well, December is going to be hectic, with holidays approaching, but if you think we should start, then I suppose I can swing it. I would rather start in January. Just my personal thought on the matter.

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No problem, Petrarch. How about we start in December with a classic and by mid January pick one that you will need? Is that OK. We need to establish rules on how to pick a play. I'm trying to wait until Janine and Arlene see this so we can get their thoughts into the mix. Just my management style. I'm a consensus builder rather than dictator. Just some insight into my work personality.

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Sounds good to me. I'm up for anything, and I've read all the plays through at least once. I think most of the plays we'll be reading for the class are fairly well known (Henry IV parts 1&2, Richard II, Midsummer, Twelfth Night, Much Ado) though I'm not sure of the final list quite yet, since the professor I'm assisting for is the one defining the syllabus for the class. I think he might have said something about Troilus and Cressida too. I've been doing some research work on the Tempest lately too, so if anyone wanted to go through that one I'd be more than game.

Hey, what happened to "Henry V"? "Henry V" is one of my all time favorite plays! Richard III is great, too!