Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

You can like it to your hearts content. But in the end, as Turk pointed out, it has no more worth than a tapeworms or a dolphins, does it?

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How come I'm not allowed to value some animals over others? I value humans over tapeworms because most of my friends are humans, and humans have much better literature. I think the problem is that the original question is very misleading. It assumes that either humans have value and worth or humans are animals. There's no reason why both statements can't be true, and they are.

As an aside: just because I value the life of a human over that of a dolphin, it doesn't mean that I won't get very upset over the wholesale slaughter of dolphins, an act that is sometimes justified by saying that they are 'just animals'.

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Originally Posted by ShotGrace

Where, exactly, was this stated or implied? Other than your mind, of course. I can't find it in any of the posts on this thread.

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That was in reference to Turk's 'no morality without God', claim. Yeah, it's not the most rational response ever, but I was angry.

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Originally Posted by ShotGrace

Agreed. cuppajoe_9, you can obviously find meaning, but I think we’re agreed that given atheism as true, it ultimately isn’t rational, correct?

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It's more rational than sitting around moping because my life is of no great cosmic signifigance, no?

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

As an aside: just because I value the life of a human over that of a dolphin, it doesn't mean that I won't get very upset over the wholesale slaughter of dolphins, an act that is sometimes justified by saying that they are 'just animals'.That was in reference to Turk's 'no morality without God', claim. Yeah, it's not the most rational response ever, but I was angry.

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Yeah!you're idea here proves how people are people and how they are different.and it's the conscience that makes us unique!! and i think the question is such a broad topic...that's why!

You know what I dont get? How come we are all operating under the assumption tha 'rabbits ' are incapable of abstract thought, of wondering about life of 'worshipping' as miss T put it.
Just because we cant see or dot understand their particular logic and reasoning doesnt mean it doesnt exsist.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

You know what I dont get? How come we are all operating under the assumption tha 'rabbits ' are incapable of abstract thought, of wondering about life of 'worshipping' as miss T put it.
Just because we cant see or dot understand their particular logic and reasoning doesnt mean it doesnt exsist.

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I know! I mean, haven't these people ever read Watership Down?

Are you taking the micheal? because if you are its not nice:nod:

Taking the michael? I am unfamiliar with the slang of today's youth culture, it seems...

taking the mick or taking the mickey as in to make fun of-- its really really old its just up here its taking the micheal.

Oh. I actually agree with you, I've just been waiting for an oportunity to spring that Watership Down joke since I thought of it this morning. Shut up, it's a good joke.

it isnt its smug ;):p
and is absaloutly opposite to my point because thats unless im mistaken a case of anthropomorphisim basically its a symptom of the nothing is as good as humans so lets have rabitts actting like us. What I mean was rabbits acting like rabbits maybe just as special and capable of abstract thinking as us they just lack the physical capabilities needed to top the food chain.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

and is absaloutly opposite to my point because thats unless im mistaken a case of anthropomorphisim basically its a symptom of the nothing is as good as humans so lets have rabitts actting like us. What I mean was rabbits acting like rabbits maybe just as special and capable of abstract thinking as us they just lack the physical capabilities needed to top the food chain.

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That was kind of the joke, actually. Nevermind...

So, Watership Down is a pretty good book, eh?

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said:

SILFLAY HRAKA

That's pretty funny.

Can a rabbit write something? This sounds like a very good topic and I would like to read its comment!

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Can a rabbit write something? This sounds like a very good topic and I would like to read its comment!

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Hey Sub. Maybe we are expecting too much from the rabbits. Perhaps they need training and education. You know with enough effort we can make quite an intellectual sort out of these rabbits. Maybe we can then ask Mr. Rabbit if he's as special as a human. :lol:

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Can a rabbit write something? This sounds like a very good topic and I would like to read its comment!

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No, they lack opposable thumbs. We'll have to teach them to type, and it'll be hunt-and-peck at that.

I'll prove to you that humans are better and distinct from rabbits. My pet rabit has something to say:out of cage and on to keyboard"ssssssssssssfghsfduyffffffffffffffffdfttttttttttt ttttttttttttttjygssssssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhh hhhhgvdddddddddd"
That's why he lives in a cage:lol: :flare:
I have the solution. Kill all rabbits! k-i-l-l a-l-l r-a-b-b-i-t-s!!
CupaJoe - I'm an anarchist too. I actually tried to run for president. It failed because my running mates didn't help much. Every one of 'em did as they pleased.:crash:

Are we different from animals?
No, but how about we say that animals have souls too. So there, you atheists, bite around that.

Wow,

In a few short hours... two pages.:alien:

Make of it what you will I'm ok being this kind of animal. Why do I need to be any different? I am a part of and a product of this planet and it's ecosystem. I share it with other animals. They are also a part and product of this planet and it's ecosystem. If you have any question to that regard take a walk on the moon but don't forget your space suit. :sick:

I am trying to explore what makes a person such a different kind of animal. In one sense we share many things. This isn't a new thing. Archeologists point to using tools etc. Others use various other arguments. Being able to think by itself isn't the answer. If you have ever had a bear double back on you in the woods you will understand how clever they can be. However I think Turk hit the nail on the head with the notion of Ideals. Although I do not think ideals are dependant on God. The notion of God is itself an ideal. Confucius was a statesman with a highly developed sense of ethics. Ethics After all, ethics comes from ethos, which is Greek for customs. The word morality comes from mores, which is Latin for customs! Niether has as it's source any notion of the levanthian "God". In essence then what I am saying is that it seems what separates man from the other animals is the sense of an Ideal.

Quoting Carter and Grammer:

"This is my home, this is my only home
This is the only sacred ground that i have ever known
And should i stray in the dark night alone
Rock me goddess in the gentle arms of eden":D

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Originally Posted by PierreGringoire

CupaJoe - I'm an anarchist too. I actually tried to run for president. It failed because my running mates didn't help much. Every one of 'em did as they pleased.:crash:

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I would tell my anarchist friends to vote for you, but none of them vote as a matter of principle.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Hey Sub. Maybe we are expecting too much from the rabbits. Perhaps they need training and education. You know with enough effort we can make quite an intellectual sort out of these rabbits. Maybe we can then ask Mr. Rabbit if he's as special as a human. :lol:

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

No, they lack opposable thumbs. We'll have to teach them to type, and it'll be hunt-and-peck at that.

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Yes, what was I thinking! Of course rabbits can't write and we, human, ought to teach them, as cuppajoe's suggestion, to type so they could tell us what they think about us. No, this doesn't mean that we, humans, are more special because we can "teach" our other fellow animals to write, to jump over the ring of fire, to identify shapes, to count, or even to speak! As someone posted, humans are just different.

Also, our many greats grandfathers and grandmothers were cool enough to leave those "I was here" signs, even though they are only in the forms of simple drawings. Among other fellows in the entire animal kingdom, I can't recall any other fellow animals which have those ability to record their history, even until this day. Now I think, we are not just different, but we are really really different.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

You know what I dont get? How come we are all operating under the assumption tha 'rabbits ' are incapable of abstract thought, of wondering about life of 'worshipping' as miss T put it.
Just because we cant see or dot understand their particular logic and reasoning doesnt mean it doesnt exsist.

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We didn't say that their logic didn't exist. Just that, probably, they can't think abstractly. Of course, they might have the ability, but aren't showing out that they can for some eeeeeeevil reason, but that is less probable in our opinion.

That does not mean that humans are superior or that other forms of life don't have souls, but humans do. Nope.


Oh, and:

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Originally Posted by Turk

Seriously, as Dostoevski told: "If there's no God everything is permissible". If you say "Humans are just animals" then what's moral? What's law? What's goodness? Every good thing we believe is completely leans on idealistic stuff and God. And your point of view is not so different than Nazi point of view. If you think human is animal then you mean human life has no worth. And as we know from the history this kind of mentality just brought death, famine and vanish to the mankind.

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May we invoke the Godwins Law?

:lol: Taliesin, well, I think that this _discussion_ is still interesting/relevant/decent enough that the sniping by a few can be overlooked and hopefully people can continue to express their opinions about the subject without regression into thread-killing posts.

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Last edited by Scheherazade : Yesterday at 04:19 PM. Reason: name calling

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Tut tut. You've been a bad boy lately, Virgil. :p

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Originally Posted by “Scheherezade”

I agree with you. We are different from other species just like fish is different from bugs and I don't think that being different means being superior.

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Sorry, I couldn’t let this one go. I don’t believe we are different in the same way that fish are different from insects, I believe that we are different in the way that humans are different than both of those creatures.

Re: Virgil’s post on the ‘nobility of man’: While (excluding my theism) I can’t say that mankind is “better” than any other species, I do stand by my earlier statement: We have special attributes, characteristics, and abilities which distinguish us from the rest of the animals on this planet.

We would be worthy of the pedestal if we weren’t such morons.

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Originally Posted by “Scheherezade”

My comment was in reply to the comments that humanbeings should be put on a pedestal because they are different in their own way.

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Right . . . and the jury is out on whether our completely distinct and special intellect, ingenuity, capacity for complex and abstract thinking, and reasoning skills are beneficial or worthy of the “pedestal.” If we weren’t so smart there never would have been gas chambers (that’s for you Taliesin and Logos), terrorism, the pulling of nails from fingers with the intention of revealing information, etc.

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Originally Posted by “Scheherezade”

Some of the other animals lack and we have do not necessarily mean we are superior.

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The ability to love, reason, and create is “superior” than the ability to breathe underwater, or fly.

How do we think the word “dehumanization” fits into all this?

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

No where did I say we were perfect. Man's inhumanity to man is another distinguishing feature that separates from animals. No (other) creature can have the complexity of thought (even wrong thought) to establish the world and society as it exists.

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I’m with it all the way, and if somebody tied me down (especially in that situation) I’d defend mankind and it’s characteristics as noble. You know the statement, “The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for?”

I still believe that mankind has the capacity, and has shown glimpses, but all in all we’ve failed miserably.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

How come I'm not allowed to value some animals over others? I value humans over tapeworms because most of my friends are humans, and humans have much better literature. I think the problem is that the original question is very misleading. It assumes that either humans have value and worth or humans are animals. There's no reason why both statements can't be true, and they are.

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You can value anything as highly or as lowly as you like, obviously. Concerning the assumption, the original question could be clearer. It depends on the definition of “worth.”

I value animals highly. Especially after they have been killed, cooked, and had their tender carcasses placed on a plate in front of me.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

As an aside: just because I value the life of a human over that of a dolphin, it doesn't mean that I won't get very upset over the wholesale slaughter of dolphins, an act that is sometimes justified by saying that they are 'just animals'.

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I like dolphins as well. They squeak and have sex for fun.

Which is “worse”: 100 dolphins caught and killed, or 5 human children killed?

How about 100 dolphins to 1 human?

I only find it interesting in light of some of Scheherezade's comments above, and that recent article about the fundraisers set up for both a woman who was a victim of a cougar attack, and the cougar responsible. Naturally, the funds contibuted for the cougar's cause far exceeded those of the woman's.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

That was in reference to Turk's 'no morality without God', claim.

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Yes, I know that cuppajoe_9. I could see the quote you held above it. ;) My point is that your statement had absolutely nothing to do with Turk’s.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Yeah, it's not the most rational response ever, but I was angry.

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It’s good to hear that. Your posts are usually (from what I can tell - which isn't saying much) the most thought out, reasonable ones around here.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

It's more rational than sitting around moping because my life is of no great cosmic signifigance, no?

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I couldn’t agree with that . . . either one is equally valid. Both are “rational” to the same degree.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I know! I mean, haven't these people ever read Watership Down?

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Or “Bunnicula.” We’re quite lucky that rabbits can't read.

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Originally Posted by “Orionsbelt”

In essence then what I am saying is that it seems what separates man from the other animals is the sense of an Ideal.

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How can you be sure that animals have no sense of an “ideal”? If they had an “ideal”, would the utter disparity between their faculties and ours play any part?

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Originally Posted by “Orionsbelt”

Being able to think by itself isn't the answer. If you have ever had a bear double back on you in the woods you will understand how clever they can be.

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I’d like to see a bear launch a satellite. Or solve a calculus problem. Or ponder its own existence. Bears are not very clever at all. What you’ve described is an evolutionary adaptation, a product of years and years of instinct built up, I’d say.

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Originally Posted by “Basil”

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said:

SILFLAY HRAKA

That's pretty funny.

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Reminds me of the Fuzzies.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I like dolphins as well. They squeak and have sex for fun.

Which is “worse”: 100 dolphins caught and killed, or 5 human children killed?

How about 100 dolphins to 1 human?

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Meaningless questions anybody? Sorry Shouty, I've seen this trap before and I'm not about to degrade the value of human life by attaching a certain number of dolphins to it.

Killing humans arbitrarily=bad
Killing dolphins arbitrarily=bad

Happy?

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I couldn’t agree with that . . . either one is equally valid. Both are “rational” to the same degree.

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No, they are not.

Finding meaning in life means increased quality of life for me, so it is in my best interests. Moping menas decreased quality of life for me, so it is not in my best interests.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I’d like to see a bear launch a satellite.

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I'd like to see you do that too.

As to value of animals, I no where said that animals did not have value. Everyone who has read my posts on dogs and wolves knows how much I love and respect them. But the question was whether humans sare pecial or mere animals, and I think I gave sufficient proof to show that humans are vastly different and special. Next time you sit at a table and have a cooked dinner on a plate and use forks and knives, consider that you didn't have to chase that animal down, bite it in the throat until it dies, tear apart its abdomen with your teeth, and stick your snout into its belly to feed.

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Originally Posted by shoutgrace

I only find it interesting in light of some of Scheherezade's comments above, and that recent article about the fundraisers set up for both a woman who was a victim of a cougar attack, and the cougar responsible. Naturally, the funds contibuted for the cougar's cause far exceeded those of the woman's.

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That is sad, and is I beleive the reflection of a society that has endowed nature with some sort of pseudo religious quality.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But the question was whether humans sare pecial or mere animals, and I think I gave sufficient proof to show that humans are vastly different and special.

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And, as I've said, the question is fundamnetally flawed. There is no reason why human beings can't be special and animals.

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Sorry if it seem like I'm picking on you, Turk, but you're making me angry.

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Before everything i would like to explain something about this. I really don't care if "you picking on" me. And do you really think i mind to make an 18 years old "anarchist" child who's trying to prove himself with his "deep" philosophical thoughts? I don't think. Go, keep watching "Fight Club".

And at the end i would like to say everything i told is leans on historical stuff. If you don't know about history, sorry but it's not my mistake. Read a little about religion and historical/philosophical background of Nazizm and USSR. If it's too hard for you then at least look at the world's situation. Thousands of people dying because of starvation in Africa, Iraq, Latin America, but i don't think u care about them since they are just animals according to you. I couldn't completely understand why western people this much selfish and unconcerned about people who's dying because of imperialism of western states but now i understood it, since i realized you think human is something like dog or pig, being pig is result of thinking human is something close to pig i guess. And btw, it wasn't me the one who say "If there's no God everything is permissible". That was Dostoevski's saying. Since you all seem much wiser than Dostoevski i think i shouldn't argue about it anymore.

As Mawlana Jalal-Ad Din Rumi said; "no matter how much you know, they will understand from what you say as much as they know".

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I'd like to see you do that too.

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Should I have said, “I’d like to see (warning – arbitrary number upcoming) 1,000 bears put their minds together and design an object, put it into space, where it will then collect data and transmit it back to earth, so that the bears can then interpret it”?

“Mankind” was obviously implied.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Sorry Shouty, I've seen this trap before and I'm not about to degrade the value of human life by attaching a certain number of dolphins to it.

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I thought that humans and animals were the same?

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Humans are animals, friend. There is nothing to separate us.

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How about not degrading dolphin lives by attaching a number of humans to it?

You’ve said:

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

How come I'm not allowed to value some animals over others? I value humans over tapeworms because most of my friends are humans, and humans have much better literature.

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The literal meaning of this sentence is that the worth of animals and humans in your eyes is dependent on what they can do for you . . . is there anything else to qualify it?

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Finding meaning in life means increased quality of life for me, so it is in my best interests. Moping menas decreased quality of life for me, so it is not in my best interests.

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This is what it comes down to? Finding some kind of temporary meaning to increase your quality of life? Similar to doing what it takes to wrap yourself up in a nice warm blanket, it seems to me. I wouldn’t deride or praise that practise any more than what you’ve called “moping”, nor would I call it any more rational.

Neither Hitler nor Stalin nor those responsible for the starvation in Africa, Iraq and Latin America believe anything I have said. Hitler and Stalin thought they were gods, not people. The imperialists who refuse to rectify the situation that makes third-world economic advancement impossible, including the leaders of my country, I am very ashamed to say, are generally Christian, and therefore do not accept my views. Dostoevski was a genius, but on that point he was mistaken because neither I, nor any other atheist I have ever met or read, think that 'everything is permissible'. I never claimed to be wise, but I know enough to make an argument without resortinting to insults.

I happen to think that all human beings are of equal worth, and that the fact that we happen to share a biological kingdom with apes and insects does absolutely nothing to diminish that fact.

Look bro, today's world controlled by a materialist ideology in almost every place of the world. That's why i mentioned about starvation of Africa.

And about Stalin and Hitler, you already know what Hitler have done, and Stalin; he killed millions of people by intentional famines. That's why i mentioned'em. And all in all they all feed by Materialist-Darwinist thoughts. Everything i told is related to each other, even sometimes i can't tell clearly what i want to tell actually. You'r too young, i understand your youth excitement but try to be a lil controlled and still, remember you'r 18, maybe your thoughts will change in future, so be a lil more self-possesed and read a lot if you want to develop. As Balzac said "to be master of knowledge you have to be slave of working", keep it in your mind. That's all...

And btw, i'm a Muslim so i believe Christianity has changed but even i don't think leaders of west are true Christians.

*sigh* Don't base your argument on another poster's age or your idea of what their IQ is etc etc. Posts will be edited/deleted if there are any more sophomoric/flame-ish comments.

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Originally Posted by ShotGrace

Should I have said, “I’d like to see (warning – arbitrary number upcoming) 1,000 bears put their minds together and design an object, put it into space, where it will then collect data and transmit it back to earth, so that the bears can then interpret it”?

“Mankind” was obviously implied.

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Just jokes, man, just jokes.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I thought that humans and animals were the same?

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Humans are different from other animals, but we are animals. There's no contradiction here.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

The literal meaning of this sentence is that the worth of animals and humans in your eyes is dependent on what they can do for you . . . is there anything else to qualify it?

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Well one could say that humans are better because we've achieved civilization and wars and New York and so on, but that's hardly an objective critera. We're inventing those criteria because it's what we're good at.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

This is what it comes down to? Finding some kind of temporary meaning to increase your quality of life?

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A bit harsh, but that's basically it, yeah. All increases to quality of life are temporary, and all meanings of life come from yourself. You can either find one or become apathetic, and apathy does no good to anybody.

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Originally Posted by Turk

Look bro, today's world controlled by a materialist ideology in almost every place of the world. That's why i mentioned about starvation of Africa.

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By 'materialism' do you mean 'consumerism' or the doctorine that nothing exists except matter and motion? I am steadfastly opposed to the first, and the second is hardly in control of the world.

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Originally Posted by Logos

*sigh* Don't base your argument on another poster's age or your idea of what their IQ is etc etc. Posts will be edited/deleted if there are any more sophomoric/flame-ish comments.

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It was just a friendly advice, since i know i was wrong about many things when i was 18.

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Originally Posted by Turk

It was just a friendly advice, since i know i was wrong about many things when i was 18.

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Dismissing my entire argument because I was born in 1987 is friendly?

This is a very interesting discussion. Let's not get distracted with personal comments (which you can exchange via PM if you choose to do so).

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

(excluding my theism)

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am having what before PC would be called a 'blond' moment can you explain what that means I was going to PM you but thats too much bother :p

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The ability to love, reason, and create is “superior” than the ability to breathe underwater, or fly.

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why?

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I’m with it all the way, and if somebody tied me down (especially in that situation) I’d defend mankind and it’s characteristics as noble. You know the statement, “The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for?”

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well Ill admit that Ill also admit that as a muslim my beliefs point me in he dirrection of humans while not being supirior are the master race, but then agan I also belive that all animals have sould and are capable and do in fat worship God.

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Or ponder its own existence.

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but would you realise it was doing it if you saw it and how do you know then if they dont?

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Originally Posted by Logos

*sigh* Don't base your argument on another poster's age or your idea of what their IQ is etc etc. Posts will be edited/deleted if there are any more sophomoric/flame-ish comments.

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yay!http://planetsmilies.net/sign-smiley-442.gif

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Dismissing my entire argument because I was born in 1987 is friendly?

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wow really your the same age as me? How theheck do you know so much?
This is very demoralising news :( well its not as bad as Robin I guess.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

All creatures are different and special in their own ways. Fish can stay under the water and swim, birds fly, most 'animals' can navigate through their very complicated and developed senses, some can see in the dark; they hear and smell 'better' than us. They are, we are, all different and special in our own way. Some of the other animals lack and we have do not necessarily mean we are superior.

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This has come up a couple of times. So,


http://images.worldofstock.com/slides/PRE3773.jpg

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/pho...C87-0014-8.jpg



http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/images/mapbear.gif


Need I say more.:D :D

I posted the whole thing it started with me. And I must have not been clear with the question but here is the real thing. If you believe in a higher being then you must also believe that each individual here is nothing more then a rabbit or even an ant when compared to his inteligence and his just over whelming greatness. So there for no matter what all we have created individually we are little more then nothing compared to him (or she or it or what ever it may be budda, god, satan, ahlai, what ever it doesn't really matter) we are but one ant in his ant farm. And if you look at it from that prespective see this too. When as a child we look at ant farms or ant hills we see their tunnels and amazing ability to lift such heavy things, well heavy to them, so look at god as the child and us as the ants but on a larger plain instead of tunnels we have roads and what not. So compared to him we are ants and if we are ants does this higher being have any respect for us or with his great knowledge does he just look down and luagh. There is the theory or question or just whatever you want to call it. It is NOT ASKING IF WE ARE JUST SIMPLE ANIMALS!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by hitchhiker

I posted the whole thing it started with me. And I must have not been clear with the question but here is the real thing. If you believe in a higher being then you must also believe that each individual here is nothing more then a rabbit or even an ant when compared to his inteligence and his just over whelming greatness. So there for no matter what all we have created individually we are little more then nothing compared to him (or she or it or what ever it may be budda, god, satan, ahlai, what ever it doesn't really matter) we are but one ant in his ant farm. And if you look at it from that prespective see this too. When as a child we look at ant farms or ant hills we see their tunnels and amazing ability to lift such heavy things, well heavy to them, so look at god as the child and us as the ants but on a larger plain instead of tunnels we have roads and what not. So compared to him we are ants and if we are ants does this higher being have any respect for us or with his great knowledge does he just look down and luagh. There is the theory or question or just whatever you want to call it. It is NOT ASKING IF WE ARE JUST SIMPLE ANIMALS!!!!!!!

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All that for nothing? What? Do you realize how you got people's passions up? :flare: