Poem of the Week

Virg.--The lines you cite about the witch and the handmaidens are still the ones that puzzle me most. I think you're right that there's something there about experience and the association of the color white with purity that will come as a rescuer.

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So I take this poem as articulating a loss of innocence and reflecting back on it through the photograph, an instant of time frozen. A modern day picture on a Grecian Urn?

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I think you're partly on to something here. The Marvell poem that this poem was inspired by is pretty clearly a tribute to an ideal innocence and a reflection on its eventual loss. I feel that the Ashberry in some way complicates this. The picture itself is not an ideal one, as we would expect in a poem reflecting on childhood innocence. He looks like a mushroom, and the moment that the shutter clicks is discribed as a "sick" one. As you point out, Dick punching Genevieve in the pajamas could be describing a childhood spat at a pajama party, but it also blends into a description of an unhealthy adult relationship. This blurring between the actions of childhood and adulthood seems to suggest that childhood itself was not as perfect as we might remember, that "the child is father to the man," so to speak. Not that we weren't more innocent as children, but that we weren't perfect either. I think that's part of what's going on with his emphasis on virtue as something invented, almost something we choose to remember for ourselves. So I think that Ashberry is talking about reflecting back at a past moment, but I'm not sure it's quite so straightforward as Keats' Grecian Urn and other poems of that ilk.

You may be right Petrarch, I'll give it some more thought tomorrow. I have yet to read the Marvell poem. I didn't want it to infleuence my initial reading of this yet. I'll do that tomorrow as well and come to some final understanding of this fine peom.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

The Marvell poem that this poem was inspired by is pretty clearly a tribute to an ideal innocence and a reflection on its eventual loss. I feel that the Ashberry in some way complicates this. The picture itself is not an ideal one, as we would expect in a poem reflecting on childhood innocence. He looks like a mushroom, and the moment that the shutter clicks is discribed as a "sick" one.

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I don't know. Mushrooms can be cute. ;) Sort of like a gangly innocence. I guess it could suggest something about the person he will become. I take your point, but I don't see anything else in the poem that would support that. "so I am not wrong / In calling this comic version of myself / The true one." When he says "invent his virtue", do you think he's referring to that of the children or the adult? I take it as after the children have "pass(ed) through" do they then invent their virtue. Virtue is an adult concept, is it not? I could be wrong, though.

I admit there is more to this poem that I just can't quite grasp. We haven't even touched upon the quote underneath the title.

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I don't know. Mushrooms can be cute. Sort of like a gangly innocence. I guess it could suggest something about the person he will become. I take your point, but I don't see anything else in the poem that would support that. "so I am not wrong / In calling this comic version of myself / The true one." When he says "invent his virtue", do you think he's referring to that of the children or the adult? I take it as after the children have "pass(ed) through" do they then invent their virtue. Virtue is an adult concept, is it not? I could be wrong, though.

I admit there is more to this poem that I just can't quite grasp. We haven't even touched upon the quote underneath the title.

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Mushrooms can be cute, but I wasn't so sure about a "pale gigantic fungus" there seemed to be something distinctly un-cute about that. :lol: Anyway, I agree that virtue is an adult concept. You may be right about this sense of not needing to invent virtue until adulthood. Still, though it may not be present quite so strongly as I suggested in my previous post, I don't feel that he's giving us an entirely ideal portrait. I still think there is much that I really don't grasp in this poem though, so I don't know if I can say with clarity what it is about it that seems so different to me than other poems that celebrate a past innocence. Maybe that's the point of the poem--that memory is faulty and it's impossible to recapture that childhood outlook "accepting/Everything, taking nothing." It's difficult to know even how much of what we idealize about the past was really there. The poem, like memory is elusive and muddled by subsequent knowledge. This is just the sense I'm getting about it at the moment anyway.

As for the quote at the opening, I'm not really clear on how it connects with the poem. It makes me think of really precocious children who always seem to be ahead of things, but I don't quite see where he's going with that.

No one has posted for this week. Here's one to do more justice to John Mlton. It's one of my favorites:

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When I consider how my light is spent by John Milton

When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

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This poem is a good poem. Shouldn't the beginning of this poem start as, When I reconsider how my light is spent...?

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This poem is a good poem. Shouldn't the beginning of this poem start as, When I reconsider how my light is spent...?

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Well, laying aside the fact that it would ruin the meter ;) , why do you think "reconsider" would be more appropriate, ktd? I thought "consider" was just the right word, especially given that the poem ends with him concluding that he does not need to change or reconsider his course. I'd be interested to hear what you were seeing here though.

Anyway, it is indeed a good poem. The last line is deservedly famous, and one of those I've found has stuck with me. That opening play on "spent" (as both using the light of life/talent and the light being used up or extinguished by his blindness) always gets to me somehow. Anyway, more comments later when I'm not so tired. :yawnb:

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When I consider how my light is spent by John Milton

When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

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For those who may not know, John Milton went blind in mid life and this poem is a reaction to it. "how my light is spent," "dark word," "light denied" are all references to his blindness.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Well, laying aside the fact that it would ruin the meter ;) , why do you think "reconsider" would be more appropriate, ktd? I thought "consider" was just the right word, especially given that the poem ends with him concluding that he does not need to change or reconsider his course. I'd be interested to hear what you were seeing here though.

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Yup, this is a sonnet right? I was just thinking about the word 'consider' in the sense that one must consider how they will spend their light, and then, when the light is spent, is when one can 'reconsider' about how that light was spent. I'm not suggesting that there is a changed mind-set in the poem, but that there is a sense of reconsideration whether his 'light' was spent properly, according to himself.

P.S. This is the new me: more inclined to agreeing and less agruementative. Tell me if you guys like the new me?

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Yup, this is a sonnet right? I was just thinking about the word 'consider' in the sense that one must consider how they will spend their light, and then, when the light is spent, is when one can 'reconsider' about how that light was spent. I'm not suggesting that there is a changed mind-set in the poem, but that there is a sense of reconsideration whether his 'light' was spent properly, according to himself.

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Yup, that there's a sonnet. :nod: I get where you were going now. He's considering how his light "is" spent, though, not how it "was" spent, so the consideration is for his circumstances in the present rather than strictly a review of what he did in the past. The spending he is doing is ongoing now. I do think he is playing a little with tense in this particular word, since if you take the meaning of "spent" as extinguished, referring to the "light" of his sight, then it is referring to something that is past. Yet even in this reading, he's still alluding to his current condition as one whose light "is spent." I think the poem is not so much about looking back over the past as it is about looking at where he is now, how he is spending his time and what his condition is, and wondering if he should modify his actions in the future. It's not that the past isn't there (certainly the urgency of having half a life spent is part of the poet's motivations), but I don't think he's trying to rehash what's gone before as much as he's trying to consider what to do now. That is, at least the way I have always read the poem.

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P.S. This is the new me: more inclined to agreeing and less agruementative. Tell me if you guys like the new me?

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Well, we look forward to getting to know the new you. Seems a good sort so far. :)

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Originally Posted by ktd222

P.S. This is the new me: more inclined to agreeing and less agruementative. Tell me if you guys like the new me?

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That's fine. Sometimes it's not a bad thing to be argumetative. However it can grow old if it's all the time. Plus the person you used to argue with the most is no longer on lit net.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Yup, that there's a sonnet. :nod: I get where you were going now. He's considering how his light "is" spent, though, not how it "was" spent, so the consideration is for his circumstances in the present rather than strictly a review of what he did in the past. The spending he is doing is ongoing now. I do think he is playing a little with tense in this particular word, since if you take the meaning of "spent" as extinguished, referring to the "light" of his sight, then it is referring to something that is past. Yet even in this reading, he's still alluding to his current condition as one whose light "is spent." I think the poem is not so much about looking back over the past as it is about looking at where he is now, how he is spending his time and what his condition is, and wondering if he should modify his actions in the future. It's not that the past isn't there (certainly the urgency of having half a life spent is part of the poet's motivations), but I don't think he's trying to rehash what's gone before as much as he's trying to consider what to do now. That is, at least the way I have always read the poem.

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Point taken.
But by saying 'When I consider how my light is spent,' this makes me think that at this point in his life, 'ere half my days,' is the first time he considers how his light will be spent; The first time he is thinking that actions may determine the outcome of his afterlife.
There is also something happening with the question and answer being displayed in the poem. Two entities, the I and the Soul, seem to be at odds as far as purpose in this world. Who is doing the asking and who is doing the answering? Is he talking to himself? I don't see any hinted evidence of God's existence in this poem except where Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist.

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Point taken.
But by saying 'When I consider how my light is spent,' this makes me think that at this point in his life, 'ere half my days,' is the first time he considers how his light will be spent; The first time he is thinking that actions may determine the outcome of his afterlife.

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Well, there's actually no reason that "consider" has to mean it's the first time he's considering it. "When I consider" refers to when he reflects or meditates upon the state of his life without really specifying if this is a one time or a frequent occurence.
That said, I understand your point, that it might give the effect of this being a new matter of consideration for him. I found it interesting that it was this question of time and tense that you focused in on first as a central part of the poem. Let us accept for a moment that, as you say, choosing to use the word "consider" alone--rather than something like "reconsider" or "consider once more"--gives a feeling of him coming to this question for the first time. That seems to me a fairly sensitive reading of the poem, which I think points to a large part of his concern here, that he is considering big questions about the way to live his life and his relationship to God for the first time in light of (so to speak) his recent blindness. He must now consider, for the first time perhaps, his life and actions in terms of his newly changed circumstances. In that first line, "When I consider how my light is spent," he conveys all of this. He is both describing the sorts of questions he's asking about how he is spending his life and, at the same time, describing the new circumstance of his blindness which has lead him to consider these things. That "spent" conveys both ongoing activity and the hoplessness of what is ended before even half his life is over. The line encapsulates a proccess of recognizing what has gone, realizing what has been thwarted in his future plans with that passing, taking inventory of his present situation, and beginning to consider plans for how to react to the whole mess of past (both literal past and hopes for the future that have passed) and present circumstances. I have always found the amount compacted into that single line simply amazing.

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There is also something happening with the question and answer being displayed in the poem. Two entities, the I and the Soul, seem to be at odds as far as purpose in this world. Who is doing the asking and who is doing the answering? Is he talking to himself? I don't see any hinted evidence of God's existence in this poem except where Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist.

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Since this is something of a seperate question, I figured I'd give it a seperate post. First off, I wasn't sure where you were seeing that "Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist." I thought the existence of God was pretty much taken for granted in this poem. I also wasn't sure if the two entities are exactly the "I" and the "soul." There are lots of poetic dialogues in this period describing a debate between a man and his soul, but I wasn't really picking up on that kind of conflict here (I'm willing to hear an elaboration in favor of such a reading though). I certainly do agree, however, that the question of voice--who is speaking and to whom--is probably worth looking at in this poem, as I think it often is in Milton's poetry. Maybe I'll outline how I read it and then you can respond with your take.

In the first quatrain the speaker seems to address the reader and/or is speaks to himself in the manner of a soliloquay.

Line five contains the first direct reference to God as "my Maker." The speaker contemplates presenting his case before his "Maker."

I think lines six through eight the most ambiguous in the poem in terms of voice. The original version does not contain the quotation marks around "Doth God exact day labour, light denied," that appear in the version presented here. I've heard that line attributed both to God--who is chiding the speaker of the poem by asking this rhetorical question as one to which the answer should be obvious--and to the speaker himself, who presumably asks the question in earnest. I've always favored the latter reading, but would be interested if there are any strong opinions on the subject among those here.

Line eight introduces the personified figure of "patience" who "replies" beginning in line nine by speaking on God's behalf to describe or remind the initial speaker of the poem about what God requires and does not require of him. I'm presuming it is the voice of patience which continues until the poem's conclusion. In a sense, since patience is obviously something within the initial speaker, I suppose you can say that he is speaking to himself.

The final voice in the poem, which is of some importance as to what Milton is responding to and what he is basing the authority of "patience" in speaking for God, is the voice of biblical scripture. The gospel of Mathew in particular seems to have been on his mind in this poem. The first six lines allude to the parable of the talents from Matthew 25:14-30, and the "mild yoke" of line eleven is doubtless inspired from Matt. 11:30, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Also, in line seven, he may be alluding to the parable of the vineyard workers in Matt. 20:1-16, in which all workers are paid the same wages whether they labour a whole or half day. I've also read glosses that point to John 9:4 in reference to that line, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." I don't know if there are any biblical scholars out there that might be able to suggest something especially appropriate about Matthew that seems to be drawing him to allude to that book especially? It might be interesting to consider.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Since this is something of a seperate question, I figured I'd give it a seperate post. First off, I wasn't sure where you were seeing that "Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist." I thought the existence of God was pretty much taken for granted in this poem. I also wasn't sure if the two entities are exactly the "I" and the "soul." There are lots of poetic dialogues in this period describing a debate between a man and his soul, but I wasn't really picking up on that kind of conflict here (I'm willing to hear an elaboration in favor of such a reading though). I certainly do agree, however, that the question of voice--who is speaking and to whom--is probably worth looking at in this poem, as I think it often is in Milton's poetry. Maybe I'll outline how I read it and then you can respond with your take.

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I can't take the stand that an actual God exist all along in Milton's view-even before this poem was written. Going back to Virgil's reference that Milton went blind halfway through his life, it's not hard to contemplate that traumatic events like this or nearing old age would cause Milton to search for a better reason for the reasons why he went blind, or will eventually die of old age.
There is only one question asked in the poem and one answer given:
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
It doesn't seem right that God would refer to himself in the third person. So then who are we left with? Milton mentions the I, the soul, the Maker, patience, and if we exclude God, then we're only left with the first two.

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I think lines six through eight the most ambiguous in the poem in terms of voice. The original version does not contain the quotation marks around "Doth God exact day labour, light denied," that appear in the version presented here. I've heard that line attributed both to God--who is chiding the speaker of the poem by asking this rhetorical question as one to which the answer should be obvious--and to the speaker himself, who presumably asks the question in earnest. I've always favored the latter reading, but would be interested if there are any strong opinions on the subject among those here.

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There is no sense of the 'chiding' voice being directly from God because it is the speaker who is asking the question.

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Line eight introduces the personified figure of "patience" who "replies" beginning in line nine by speaking on God's behalf to describe or remind the initial speaker of the poem about what God requires and does not require of him. I'm presuming it is the voice of patience which continues until the poem's conclusion. In a sense, since patience is obviously something within the initial speaker, I suppose you can say that he is speaking to himself.

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though my soul more bent/To serve therewith my Maker,
Yes. And in these lines it is the soul that is 'bent to serve the "Maker,"' as 'patience' seems to be responding on behalf of God. We have a strong parallel here.

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The final voice in the poem, which is of some importance as to what Milton is responding to and what he is basing the authority of "patience" in speaking for God, is the voice of biblical scripture. The gospel of Mathew in particular seems to have been on his mind in this poem. The first six lines allude to the parable of the talents from Matthew 25:14-30, and the "mild yoke" of line eleven is doubtless inspired from Matt. 11:30, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Also, in line seven, he may be alluding to the parable of the vineyard workers in Matt. 20:1-16, in which all workers are paid the same wages whether they labour a whole or half day. I've also read glosses that point to John 9:4 in reference to that line, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." I don't know if there are any biblical scholars out there that might be able to suggest something especially appropriate about Matthew that seems to be drawing him to allude to that book especially? It might be interesting to consider.

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This voice only seems activated when spoken.

ktd

Are you questioning Milton's senserity in his religious belief? I am not a Milton scholar, but I have never heard anyone question it, and given his frequent religious subjects I would find it hard to believe that he does not believe in God.

I don't have the time right now to jump into the text (I'll do that later) for a close analysis, but I would summarize the poem in this way: The narrator asks God why has He allowed him to go blind when He has also given him such great talent to serve and now cannot be realized; and God responds, I don't care about your talent, that's not the service I require.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

ktd

Are you questioning Milton's senserity in his religious belief? I am not a Milton scholar, but I have never heard anyone question it, and given his frequent religious subjects I would find it hard to believe that he does not believe in God.

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No. It's just a question and had to pose as if I were reading a work by an miscellaneous author.

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I don't have the time right now to jump into the text (I'll do that later) for a close analysis, but I would summarize the poem in this way: The narrator asks God why has He allowed him to go blind when He has also given him such great talent to serve and now cannot be realized; and God responds, I don't care about your talent, that's not the service I require.

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I'm not sure it is God answering at all.
But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
Do you think God would answer in the form of third person; then switch over to such phrases as 'his mild yoke' and 'him best'? This just seems very odd to me.

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I can't take the stand that an actual God exist all along in Milton's view-even before this poem was written. Going back to Virgil's reference that Milton went blind halfway through his life, it's not hard to contemplate that traumatic events like this or nearing old age would cause Milton to search for a better reason for the reasons why he went blind, or will eventually die of old age.

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I'm afraid you're going to have to work long and hard to convince me that Milton is questioning God's existence in this poem. Of course it would make sense that Milton might have a period of doubt after going blind, but that simply isn't what's being described in this poem. You might look at the opening of his Samson Agonistes, which is pretty clearly a description of a struggle to maintain faith in God in the face of blindness. Laying aside the fact that, from my other readings of this poet I know that he's got a remarkably deep rooted faith in his religion, I simply don't see the evidence for doubt in the lines of this poem.

The central question in the poem, I think we'll all agree, is "Does God exact day labour, light denied?" (which, incidently, I entirely agree with you is spoken by Milton). This question follows several lines making clear allusions to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30. The parable tells the story of a master who goes off on a trip and leaves a certain number of talents (money) with each of his servants for safe keeping. Two servants, who got four or five talents each, invest them and double their money, but another servant who only was given one talent hides it for fear of loosing everything. When the lord (master) comes back he praises the good investors and chides the servant who hid his talent for not having received interest on it by investing it with usury. The parable concludes with the order to "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness," with obvious parallels to be drawn in the way mankind will someday be judged according to the use of their "talents" in life.

Milton (who obviously puns on "talent" here to also mean his literary talent) is wary of being like the "unprofitable servant," since his blindness forces him to hide "that one talent which is death to hide" and makes it "lodged with [him] useless" (possibly a pun on the "usury" referred to in the parable), despite the fact that his soul is more "bent" (inclined) to serve his "Maker" with that talent. He is afraid that he will meet the fate of the servant in the parable when God, like the servant's master, returns to chide him. Thus the question about "day labour" he's building up to is coming out of a concern for whether he is serving God sufficiently, and how he is best able to serve Him. He wonders if God will expect "day labour" or a whole day's work equal to that of other men, when he has denied Milton the light of day in his blindness. I'll grant you that there may be some anger and resentment present in the question, in that he's upset at the thought that God might demand the same work out of him now that he's at a disadvantage and not sure he can perform that work. He's frustrated by inaction, and concerned about serving God's purpose sufficiently, but I hardly see how you can make the leap to him questioning God's existence from that. I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.

Why don't we address the last half of the poem and your concerns about who's doing the answering a little later, since I think the first portion is probably enough on the table for now? (Not to mention I've got a major presentation to prepare for this afternoon and have got to run ;) ).

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I'm afraid you're going to have to work long and hard to convince me that Milton is questioning God's existence in this poem. Of course it would make sense that Milton might have a period of doubt after going blind, but that simply isn't what's being described in this poem. You might look at the opening of his Samson Agonistes, which is pretty clearly a description of a struggle to maintain faith in God in the face of blindness. Laying aside the fact that, from my other readings of this poet I know that he's got a remarkably deep rooted faith in his religion, I simply don't see the evidence for doubt in the lines of this poem.

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I'm not in the business of trying to convince people. :D Good, I don't think the poem's major conern is trying to search for whether God exist or not either. Getting back to what I think the poem is about, it seems to be a concern for Milton whether or not the way he lived, living, going to live is going to affect the God views him.

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That "spent" conveys both ongoing activity and the hoplessness of what is ended before even half his life is over. The line encapsulates a proccess of recognizing what has gone, realizing what has been thwarted in his future plans with that passing, taking inventory of his present situation, and beginning to consider plans for how to react to the whole mess of past (both literal past and hopes for the future that have passed) and present circumstances. I have always found the amount compacted into that single line simply amazing.

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-I agree with this by the way.

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The central question in the poem, I think we'll all agree, is "Does God exact day labour, light denied?" (which, incidently, I entirely agree with you is spoken by Milton). This question follows several lines making clear allusions to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30. The parable tells the story of a master who goes off on a trip and leaves a certain number of talents (money) with each of his servants for safe keeping. Two servants, who got four or five talents each, invest them and double their money, but another servant who only was given one talent hides it for fear of loosing everything. When the lord (master) comes back he praises the good investors and chides the servant who hid his talent for not having received interest on it by investing it with usury. The parable concludes with the order to "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness," with obvious parallels to be drawn in the way mankind will someday be judged according to the use of their "talents" in life.

Milton (who obviously puns on "talent" here to also mean his literary talent) is wary of being like the "unprofitable servant," since his blindness forces him to hide "that one talent which is death to hide" and makes it "lodged with [him] useless" (possibly a pun on the "usury" referred to in the parable), despite the fact that his soul is more "bent" (inclined) to serve his "Maker" with that talent. He is afraid that he will meet the fate of the servant in the parable when God, like the servant's master, returns to chide him. Thus the question about "day labour" he's building up to is coming out of a concern for whether he is serving God sufficiently, and how he is best able to serve Him. He wonders if God will expect "day labour" or a whole day's work equal to that of other men, when he has denied Milton the light of day in his blindness. I'll grant you that there may be some anger and resentment present in the question, in that he's upset at the thought that God might demand the same work out of him now that he's at a disadvantage and not sure he can perform that work. He's frustrated by inaction, and concerned about serving God's purpose sufficiently, but I hardly see how you can make the leap to him questioning God's existence from that. I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.

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It was just an observation. He is convinced that God exist is he not? And I still DON'T see any evidence of God's existence in the poem because there is nowhere in the poem that God speaks to him.

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I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.

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Who says I'm not?

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Why don't we address the last half of the poem and your concerns about who's doing the answering a little later, since I think the first portion is probably enough on the table for now? (Not to mention I've got a major presentation to prepare for this afternoon and have got to run ;) ).

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What would you like to address? :confused:

Just some observations on the form. It's a Petrarchan sonnet with rhyme scheme abba abba cdecde. What I always look for in a sonnet is to see how the poet breaks up his thought. Typical of Milton, and unlike Shakespeare, his thoughts overflow the barriers of the form. Normally a poet would have an element of thought for the first quatrain, a parallel or developing element of thought for the second quatrain, and for the sestet a contrasting element of thought that would conclude the poem. The two quatrains really make up one element of thought and Milton starts the contrasting thought in the last line of the second quatrain "But patience..." What is interesting to me about from that line to the 13th line is how frequent he spills over sentence fragments into the next line: "to prevent / That mummur", "Who best / Bear his", "His state / Is kingly." Of course almost every line is enjambed, but the ones I just listed seem like goes out of his way to purposely spill over. the are such short phrases that sure he could have worked the lines differently. It gives the sestet a different feel than the quatrain but it also sets up the concluding line's finality and gravity: "They also serve who only stand and wait."

Great poem Virgil... (:banana: )

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Good, I don't think the poem's major conern is trying to search for whether God exist or not either. Getting back to what I think the poem is about, it seems to be a concern for Milton whether or not the way he lived, living, going to live is going to affect the God views him.

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Well, glad we're agreed on that. The concern is definately the way Milton thinks he'll be judged by God.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Quote Petrarch's Love:
I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.

Who says I'm not?

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I thought you did here:

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Originally Posted by ktd222

I can't take the stand that an actual God exist all along in Milton's view-even before this poem was written.

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Isn't that saying that you can't be certain that Milton believed in God from the start? :confused:

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Originally Posted by ktd222

It was just an observation. He is convinced that God exist is he not? And I still DON'T see any evidence of God's existence in the poem because there is nowhere in the poem that God speaks to him.

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Yes, he is convinced that God exists. Why is it important for you that God speaks, or that there is "evidence" of His existence in the poem? It is not at all unusual for God not to speak in devotional poetry. In fact it's far more striking and unusual that Milton does have God the father speak so directly in PL. This poem takes the perspective of a man of faith going through this life, and the average Christian, even a very faithful one is probably not going to have direct personal chats with the voice of the Almighty the way Adam did in Eden. Usually the interaction with God is through prayer, through study of the scriptures, or through drawing inward on God-given virtues such as "patience." I think Milton is trying to present a realistic picture of how a person tries to understand God's purpose for him in the world. The poem doesn't describe God's voice because Milton isn't hearing God's voice. He's trying to understand what God's message is through scripture and through patience. I don't think that Milton would say that this means God doesn't exist in his poem, just that He makes Himself known in mysterious ways.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

What would you like to address? :confused:

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Well if you don't know then I don't. :lol: I thought you were trying to make a point about the latter half of the poem, but I was in too much of a rush to look at it carefully, so I was just saying we could come to that later. Maybe you were just pointing out that God doesn't speak in the last half though, which is something we're already talking about. I'm sure the discussion generally will turn to the last half of the poem sometime this week.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

What is interesting to me about from that line to the 13th line is how frequent he spills over sentence fragments into the next line: "to prevent / That mummur", "Who best / Bear his", "His state / Is kingly." Of course almost every line is enjambed, but the ones I just listed seem like goes out of his way to purposely spill over. the are such short phrases that sure he could have worked the lines differently. It gives the sestet a different feel than the quatrain but it also sets up the concluding line's finality and gravity: "They also serve who only stand and wait."

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Milton does enjambment like no other poet I've ever encountered. I think it's this habit of running one line into the next that also accounts for his transgession of the usual compartments of the sonnet form, which you point out. Starting the major turn at the end of the second quatrain, for example, is a result of his desire to start the next thought mid line. It's this habit of his for splitting sentences, and (as you point out here) even sentence fragments, that often makes his verse so compelling. The effect is most evident in his lengthy work, like PL, when you find that, though it's a long poem, you simply can't put it down. He's incorporated what I think of as mini cliffhangers into each line. You can hardly ever stop reading on a certain line, because it starts a new thought midway through which you have to go to the next line to complete and so on until he decides what line to rest on, in this case the final line of the poem. As you say, this gives the final line an extra weight and gravitas. Unenjambed lines in Milton tend to be very powerful and memorable. They're often the ones we're invited to dwell on. I've often thought Milton uses a full line the way Shakespeare uses couplets, for finality and/or for emphasis.

As to the question on who is speaking in the sestet, could it be that it's neither God or Milton.

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...But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

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I don't know if this has been discussed, but I read it (now for the first time in this way; I have always read it in the past as God's voice.) as "patience" speaking these words, patience personified acting like a diety or an angel. It's as if this angel, patience (unfortuantely it's not capitalized so I guess this reading could be suspect), is admonishing the narrator as to God's requirements.

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I don't know if this has been discussed, but I read it (now for the first time in this way; I have always read it in the past as God's voice.) as "patience" speaking these words, patience personified acting like a diety or an angel. It's as if this angel, patience (unfortuantely it's not capitalized so I guess this reading could be suspect), is admonishing the narrator as to God's requirements.

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As I think I said in my post on voice in response to ktd, I too have always read it as patience doing the speaking at the end of the poem. It is puzzling that "patience" isn't capitalized but possibly a printer's oversight or something. It appears that way in the original printing, but I've seen it capitalized by some modern editors.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I thought you did here:


Isn't that saying that you can't be certain that Milton believed in God from the start? :confused:

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I'm not certain either way.

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Yes, he is convinced that God exists. Why is it important for you that God speaks, or that there is "evidence" of His existence in the poem? It is not at all unusual for God not to speak in devotional poetry. In fact it's far more striking and unusual that Milton does have God the father speak so directly in PL. This poem takes the perspective of a man of faith going through this life, and the average Christian, even a very faithful one is probably not going to have direct personal chats with the voice of the Almighty the way Adam did in Eden. Usually the interaction with God is through prayer, through study of the scriptures, or through drawing inward on God-given virtues such as "patience." I think Milton is trying to present a realistic picture of how a person tries to understand God's purpose for him in the world. The poem doesn't describe God's voice because Milton isn't hearing God's voice. He's trying to understand what God's message is through scripture and through patience. I don't think that Milton would say that this means God doesn't exist in his poem, just that He makes Himself known in mysterious ways.

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Because I want to know who is involved in the dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

As to the question on who is speaking in the sestet, could it be that it's neither God or Milton.



I don't know if this has been discussed, but I read it (now for the first time in this way; I have always read it in the past as God's voice.) as "patience" speaking these words, patience personified acting like a diety or an angel. It's as if this angel, patience (unfortuantely it's not capitalized so I guess this reading could be suspect), is admonishing the narrator as to God's requirements.

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Petrarch said these are all references to biblical scriptures; so is it going to far to say it is the learn'd part of Milton himself that is reciting these scriptures?

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Petrarch said these are all references to biblical scriptures; so is it going to far to say it is the learn'd part of Milton himself that is reciting these scriptures?

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No it's not too far; it's certainly a possibility. The poem would then be a sort of monlogue with internal conflict. But Milton puts quotation marks around the voices, so I would just have to accept it as two separate voices.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

As I think I said in my post on voice in response to ktd, I too have always read it as patience doing the speaking at the end of the poem. It is puzzling that "patience" isn't capitalized but possibly a printer's oversight or something. It appears that way in the original printing, but I've seen it capitalized by some modern editors.

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I'm sorry for repeating you Petrarch. I seem to sometimes have trouble concentrating on words on a screen. :nod: I did not grow up with computers and I absorb so much more from a printed page.

Another observation I would like to make in this poem is the metaphor in the opening line and how I think Milton develops it in two other places in the poem.

"When I consider how my light is spent"

Light isn't a commodity that gets used up. Light is really referring to his eye sight, and even eye sight doesn't get used up; it just is or isn't. The image I leap to here, and perhaps this is just me, is of a candle. So then we have a complicated metaphor, where his eye sight is like a candle burning and being used up.

Now I also see this candle imagery developed.

"though my soul more bent / To serve therewith my maker"

Soul more bent is like a candle flame bending toward something.

"They also serve who only stand and wait"

Isn't that essentially how a candle serves, by standing and waiting?

The significance of the candle imagery/metaphor is that it dramatizes Milton's theme, that we are souls serving God simply by our homage to him, a candle being a religious item that is used for adoration.

Make sense?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm sorry for repeating you Petrarch. I seem to sometimes have trouble concentrating on words on a screen. I did not grow up with computers and I absorb so much more from a printed page.

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No worries. :) The comment was at the end of a rather lengthy post, so I'm sure it wasn't hard to miss. I also find the printed page easier to read over.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Petrarch said these are all references to biblical scriptures; so is it going to far to say it is the learn'd part of Milton himself that is reciting these scriptures?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

No it's not too far; it's certainly a possibility. The poem would then be a sort of monlogue with internal conflict. But Milton puts quotation marks around the voices, so I would just have to accept it as two separate voices.

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I think the poem is essentially an internal dialogue. The quotation marks wouldn't really complicate this. It's not at all unusual in this period to have devotional poetry in which a person debates with himself, or two personified internal aspects of himself. The most common and obvious ones are things like debate between Body and Soul, Virtue and Temptation, Faith and Doubt etc. The different "voices" in such dialogues would include quotation marks. I think Milton's is a much more subtle and nuanced version of such an internal dialogue. The one thing I would add is that, for someone with a Christian faith like Milton, I think there is always the sense of the external God, being present in the internal. Milton might say that he is not trying to listen to himself as much as to the words presented to him by God in the scripture, and to the promptings of the Holy Spirit through "patience" within him (with patience possibly being, as Virg. suggested earlier, in some sense a sort of divine angel or intermediary). I don't think Milton would draw a line between an internal dialogue and one where God is present, since the idea is that God is always present in some way or another. The poem is a lot about the way that a person can tap into God's presence and how to interpret God's will.

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"When I consider how my light is spent"

Light isn't a commodity that gets used up. Light is really referring to his eye sight, and even eye sight doesn't get used up; it just is or isn't. The image I leap to here, and perhaps this is just me, is of a candle. So then we have a complicated metaphor, where his eye sight is like a candle burning and being used up.

Now I also see this candle imagery developed.

"though my soul more bent / To serve therewith my maker"

Soul more bent is like a candle flame bending toward something.

"They also serve who only stand and wait"

Isn't that essentially how a candle serves, by standing and waiting?

The significance of the candle imagery/metaphor is that it dramatizes Milton's theme, that we are souls serving God simply by our homage to him, a candle being a religious item that is used for adoration.

Make sense?

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Yes, the light imagery is very rich here. I think the image of a candle is an apt way to think about it and, as you say, fits in well with the idea of "stand and wait." I hadn't really thought about the "soul more bent" being like a candle, and that may be a bit of a stretch, but generally speaking I think a candle is one good way of thinking about light in this poem. Both light and candles have also long been associated with life ("out, out, brief candle"), which is the obvious secondary meaning for "light" here. There's also the question of the light of the world (described as a "dark world and wide" early on), the light of day in relation to labour, and the idea of light as something "denied," which I think not only relates to his blindness, but ties in to a concern with being denied the light of eternal bliss in the future.

But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

Is the they and the who in the first highlighted line the same they and who in the second highlighted line? I'm not sure if it is because the two lines would be redundant if this was the case. Why I'm asking this is because if the one 'who only stand and wait' is referring to Milton in his blind state, and the they is the same in both lines, then there seems to be a sense of 'order of importance' created by the end of this poem. The ones who 'serve Him(God) best/best bear His mild yoke,' will in a sense be the same ones who also serve 'who only stand and wait(Milton).'
If this is the case, then the question of 'Doth God exact day-labour, light denied' becomes answerable: No. The importance of 'serving God' in the blind state becomes more 'important' than serving God while not blind. The consideration is done.
But I must admit, the vagueness of who is who is what leaves me unsure.

Wow, I never realized that "who-they" formulation echoes. Actually "they" in the first occurence is redundant. Sentence could have stood as "who best serve His mild yoke serve him best." Why the added "they"? I guess syllables and rhythm, but also the echo. This also adds to the power of the concluding line.

Also noticing the repetitions. "Light" of course throughout the poem, but "best" within the very same sentence, "who-they" as I describe above, and "serve".

I thought about it some more.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Actually "they" in the first occurence is redundant. Sentence could have stood as "who best serve His mild yoke serve him best." Why the added "they"? I guess syllables and rhythm, but also the echo. This also adds to the power of the concluding line.

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Yes, but don't forget the word 'bear.' 'Who best bear His mild yoke serve Him best'.
The ones who best serve Him are the ones who best bear His mild yoke. Who are these 'they'? The image is of an oxen yoked by a wooden frame would have to lead me to think that the they is referring to the day labourers. How else could an oxen work if it did not have light?

'They also serve who only stand and wait'.

But then who are the they here? It has to be the same they as above because of the phrase 'also serve,' which indicates 'in addition to'. But who is the who referring to here? If it's God, then you have this weird comparison where just like God, Milton(blinded) is standing still while the ones who can see are like oxens labouring(spending their light) to serve God, and in a weird sense, Milton.

But I think the importance of this work(day-labour) towards serving God is undercut by Patience saying,' God doth not need Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best'. Which is to say, at best, this type of serving God, even though are the ones who serve Him best, is at best "bearing his mild(almost least laborious demands) yoke'".

So in a way, as Virgil pointed out, it doesn't seem like the importance of serving God requires the sense of seeing. But then that last line makes me imagine Milton as this person who 'stands still and waits,' and I get a sense that he's elevated himself as far as the proper way to serve God-which seems to be just whole-heartedly believing-and has very little to do with considering how one's light is spent.

edit: I just thought of something about the poem relating to the word 'consider' and the overall theme of this poem. What if 'consider' was in terms of considered importance? Then what I get out of this poem is that what we consider important, as far as serving God to have a place in the 'light' when we pass from this world, is considered not worthy at all from the scriptures portrayal. Maybe that something considered of worth 'in God's eyes' is not something laborious(in the physical sense) at all.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

I thought about it some more.


Yes, but don't forget the word 'bear.' 'Who best bear His mild yoke serve Him best'.
The ones who best serve Him are the ones who best bear His mild yoke. Who are these 'they'? The image is of an oxen yoked by a wooden frame would have to lead me to think that the they is referring to the day labourers. How else could an oxen work if it did not have light?

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Yes, that's the image but I think God's yoke applies to everyone; it's universal.

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edit: I just thought of something about the poem relating to the word 'consider' and the overall theme of this poem. What if 'consider' was in terms of considered importance? Then what I get out of this poem is that what we consider important, as far as serving God to have a place in the 'light' when we pass from this world, is considered not worthy at all from the scriptures portrayal. Maybe that something considered of worth 'in God's eyes' is not something laborious(in the physical sense) at all

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That works for me.

This week's poem:

And Death Shall Have No Dominion
by Dylan Thomas

And death shall have no dominion.
Dead men naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone,
They shall have stars at elbow and foot;
Though they go mad they shall be sane,
Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion.

And death shall have no dominion.
Under the windings of the sea
They lying long shall not die windily;
Twisting on racks when sinews give way,
Strapped to a wheel, yet they shall not break;
Faith in their hands shall snap in two,
And the unicorn evils run them through;
Split all ends up they shan't crack;
And death shall have no dominion.

And death shall have no dominion.
No more may gulls cry at their ears
Or waves break loud on the seashores;
Where blew a flower may a flower no more
Lift its head to the blows of the rain;
Though they be mad and dead as nails,
Heads of the characters hammer through daisies;
Break in the sun till the sun breaks down,
And death shall have no dominion.
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I like this poem for its 'rebellious' nature. It says that even though death's final, there's still hope left, as the line "And death shall have no dominion" suggests.

I was wondering whom is the poem about. My first impression is that it is about sailors of a wrecked ship, there's a lot of references to sailing. Does anybody else have different idea(s)?

My first reaction to this poem is how the repetition of "And death shall have no dominion" makes the poem song-like. To state the obvious, it opens and closes each stanza, like a refrain, so that we hear the actual line six times out of the 27 total lines. If it were read aloud, like Thomas was famous for, there would be no doubt as to what the audience would come away with. No only is it song-like, it is hymn-like; the line feels like a church refrain.

No one can do death and repetition like Dylan Thomas! What amazes me about this poem is that the repetition does not feel repetitive, as it so easily could, but powerful instead. I'll post more when I've had more than five hours sleep in a 48 hour period. :yawnb:

For me this poem goes on two stanzas too long. I can see the contrast created in the first stanza with the phrases 'death having no dominion' and 'we shall'. It's not necessary to repeat lines here unless he's trying to create some bigger effect, which seems to be absent in my initial reading. What he conveys is pretty straightforward: that death shall have no dominion over dead(physically) men. But this statement seems to stagnate as the image is created in stanza 1, and is reiterated.

I'm going to have to disagree with ktd. I think the thing that makes the sound of this poem powerful is the repetition, and I think the stanzas each speak to a different purpose. One stanza alone wouldn't have any kind of punch to it. I wouldn't think of this as a memorable poem from just one stanza. I think part of the reason for the repetion is that he wants to create the feeling of something or someone constantly beating against the one eternal constant, death.

In case anyone's interested, the line "And death shall have no dominion" is paraphrased from Romans 6:9, "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." (KJV) I'll get to the content of the stanzas a little later but, apropos of powerful repetition, Beethoven's 5th just came on the radio, and that's one of those you have to take time out for :nod: ...ciao.