Drinking in Moderation

Don't inherently know "why" Jesus would say anything... but I do know that I would rather ask HIM why, than someone else. I can only tell you what I feel/believe. And I feel/believe that Jesus would prefer people to stay married at all costs, but when the cost is too great, then the decision is permanent. If you divorce someone, then you have cast the first stone, so to speak. And as I said, Jesus regarded looking on another with lust in the heart every bit as sinful as extra-marital sex in the flesh. If you can cut off someone's avenue to repentance and reconciliation, you stand in judgment of them. If you do not forgive others, your Heavenly Father will not forgive you.

An unfaithful spouse cannot be a believing spouse. It is a complete contradiction. Therefore, if the unbelieving spouse desires to dwell with you, don't seek to be loosed. But if you do leave, Christ commands you to remain single.

As for keeping marriage sacred: If anyone searches their heart, they will know that they could have been more loving, could have been more giving, could have taken better care of themself and their partner ... and so bears some responsibility for any condition which impinges on the marriage - including infidelity. Only in the case of undisclosed premarital situations can a person can be truly said to bear no fault. Everything that comes after marriage is committed by two joint-heirs of salavation, and we have responsibility for one another.

It is the undisclosed fornication that Jesus referred to when saying that such reasons for break-up did not result in adultery conditions. Because in the eyes of God, and man, there was no marriage which was legally or morally entered into. Every prospective spouse has a right to know who they are marrying, inside and out.

If the Spirit has not taught someone the first principles of walking in faith (forgiveness), and they need justification in the written word to do what you want to do they will find it. Jesus, however, did not "let people off", but said very clearly if you do not forgive all of your brother's (or wife's or husband's... or are you going to say I am speculating, that he said "brother" so that is where it ends?!) trespasses, your Heavenly Father will not forgive you.

I completly agree with Shea. mrbillbenson you are oh so very wrong.

as for this comment...

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Moderation...f*ck moderation.

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I agree.....unless you are a christian and want to follow the bible.

Jonus

Oh so very wrong ... about everything? OK.

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Oh so very wrong ... about everything? OK.

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Maybe not everything but everything you've said about biblical divorce.

Jonus

Mr. Bill, I'm going to give you two personal examples.

First, my stepfather. His first wife left him after he became a christian. He didn't ask for a divorce, she did. He married again to a woman who did a personality change after the vows. She also did the divorcing, not him. Then he met my mother. He showed her truth in the Bible, she was baptized and then they were married and have been happily so for 11 years now. They even survived quitting smoking together. I would not now be a christian if she hadn't met him.

Second story: There is a very sweet young woman who attends our congregation. She was raised in the church, her father is an elder at a congregation in Texas. She is expecting her first baby in about two weeks, and after the birth, she will move back to Texas to be with her family, without her husband. To everyone's very unexpected surprise, he decided to have an affair. He was always a very nice pleasant person, a little on the quiet side, but nobody expected his actions at all. Our elders and other members of the congregation did their best to talk with him, but he continued to press for a divorce, not her. But because of his actions, and the scriptures I've listed, if she wishes in the future, she will be able to marry again and not violate the scriptures.

The christian should do everything they can to keep a marriage whole. But if the other person is obviously not going to comply, then they are not bound to the marriage any longer. If you think about it, it makes better sense for the christian parent to find a christian spouse than to try and raise children to be christians in a home where one spouse is not faithful.

In my humble opinion:
"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial"
-by Paul, one of my favorite quotes in the bible.

If drinking makes you crazy and violent, dont do it, but if it just adds hapiness, go ahead :D Whats so bad about making life a illusion? Only those who cannot control it can be doing a wrong thing.
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Also in my opinion every religion / philosophy is moderatively true.
This is a quote from the Taoist philosophy, very similar to Christianity, but of course without the concept "God" and his son "Jesus." (God is refered to as "heaven" or "the way."

- The great sage lives amongst the people, but is not contaminated by them. Indeed, he posesses his own fragrance, like the beautiful water lilies blooming from the murky water.

Shea,

I feel you are wrong, but I can see how much you would like to be right. All the good intentions in the World do not make something that is a wrong rendering of Jesus's truths correct, no matter what the circumstances. I can say I do not know, when I do not – but this is not one of those times. You are speculating that fornication REALLY means adultery in this very instance, and you are wrong, plain and simple. You are saying someone can remarry because one (and only one) of the meanings of the Greek word you wrote – porneia, or whatever – can mean adultery. My concordance uses the term "including adultery" which is to say, it isn't always. It does not have to mean that at all, it most certainly can mean sex between two people who are not married. Jesus used two words for adultery in the same passage on the subject (Mark 7:21). The word for fornications is very nearly the same there as in Matthew 19.

You want the Scriptures to mean what feels good to you. What you want the scriptures to mean is what most fundamentalist "Christians" want it to mean. Those who are willing for some of God's law, but not all. Who can throw out Jesus's law of forgiveness. You rationalize the actions of a cuckolded spouse who destroys his partner's future by divorcing him or her. Who is probably just as guilty of sinfulness in some other areas of his walk before God, but still passes judgment on their mate and closes off all avenue of repentance and reconciliation. Nevermind that that person was besieged by Satan, same as the divorcer, just maybe not in the same way. And nevermind that the one being put away may have given all they ever had to their spouse for many years, but for one slip...

No, hardness of heart, which dispels forgiveness, is not acceptable to God. If the heat is too much, and you want to get out of the kitchen, then fine ... but don't go cook in another kitchen. You are trying to give license to someone – who made a vow to love for better or worse - to push a reset button on their life because they got disappointed. No way, Jesus would not have ANY of that.

Now, here's why Matthew 19 does NOT mean infidelity during marriage.

Firstly, because treating this usage of fornication to mean sex before marriage makes Jesus's words consistent with the Old Testament. He didn't come to destroy that law, he said. A bride given to a husband was supposed to be a virgin, and if she was not a virgin (Matthew 1:18-19 anyone?) then the marriage was not on proper terms.

Secondly, the only times the exception is mentioned by Jesus, he is talking about a woman. That is to say, it has to do with a woman's requirement to be a virgin, in order to be worth the bride price, not the man. That's just the way it was, for what it's worth, not that I like it that way.

Third, Mark doesn't even mention the exception at all, so if it was such a blatant escape clause for every cuckolded mate to rely on, why would Mark leave it out? In fact, it was probably a pretty obscure occurrence (brides tended to marry pretty young, and most weddings would not go through with a bride who was secretly not a virgin)

Next, Jesus seemed pretty adamant that what God had joined should not be set apart by man. I would say, however, that a fraudulent marriage between a non-virgin bride and her unsuspecting groom was not something God had joined. I do admit this is ascribing more human fairness to God than he would take for himself, so I'm willing to let this assertion go if you like.

In all, the only reasonable answer is because he was referring to before-marriage sex by "fornication", and after-marriage sex by "adultery."

Suppose you were right about the meaning of fornication: adultery during marriage. Here are two scenarios that make your concept a moral contradiction. The first is an absurdity. The second, merely something that seems unfair in comparison to the first. (Note: I am not saying the second one is wrong, I am saying it is absurd in comparison to the first). Here they are:

Person A is unfaithful during the marriage (meets / falls in love with person C).
Person B divorces them.
Person B gets remarried, which is their right, according to your reading.
Person A marries Person C. By your definition, this isn't adultery. If you disagree, go back to Matthew 19 and reread it. So you have two wrongs making a right, how interesting (rather, how absurd.)

Next situation:
Person A is an abuser. He beats his wife, Person B.
Person B runs away from Person A, bringing the children.
Person A never remarries. Person B cannot remarry because no one has committed adultery (yet).

Unfortunate as it is (and I know some cases where this has happened) the above situation is what the Scripture says. Paul also says that if the believing one departs, the Lord commands they remain single.

Anyway, the Bible was not meant to be fair, but it is meant to be understood as much as possible, and not to read into it what we *wish* were so.

The only acceptable reason for divorce is fornication.

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Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

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If you look up this instance of fornication in Strongs' you get this....

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G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

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G4203 is this.....

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G4203
πορνεύω
porneuō
porn-yoo'-o
From G4204; to act the harlot, that is, (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: - commit (fornication).

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Now as far as I can tell this is not speaking about Fornication before mairrage. The context of this verse is speaking about fornication at any time.....

Jonus

Jonus - you are simply wrong. Jesus meant before marriage sex ... Mark skips it entirely (it hardly ever happened); pre-marital sex is definitely one of the literal, possible meanings, and if you put in context of

Jesus's message about hardness of heart - things that God has joined not being put assunder - looking on someone with lust being equal in sinfulness to "doing it" you will understand better that he did NOT want people who believe in a resurrection, where all inequities will be more than compensated, to cut off another's avenue to repentance and reconciliation.

Right is right even if no one does it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody does it. Don't teach others to commit fornication and adultery.

You want to know why "wide is the way that leads to distruction and many there be that go in thereat ..." you are part of the reason. Because you sanction what at least half the world is doing; cheating on one another, breaking up, remarrying, and getting on with their "saved" existences.

Jesus will judge it all, not me. I just try to give people the skinny, the facts, and not pin hopes on misreading Jesus intent. That is why I believe in following a whole Bible, not a Bible full of holes.

Regards,

bill

Unfortunatly for your theory the bible doesn't say fornication before marriage. It simply says fornication. It does not specify a time.

I do not condone people cheating on their spouse in any way. But if my wife cheats on me the bible says that I can "put her away" ie divorce her.

I'm sorry bill but the bible just does not bear out what you say.

Jonus

I disagree with you. Thanks for expressing your thoughts.

Nice forum here, when used right. Everyone gets a say. I hope that people are praying, so that the Lord gets a say too!

;)

The Bible does have a say about drinking, from moderate to drunkenness. Please check out the 75 Bible warnings(http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm) against intoxicating wine. Please remember that there was fermented and unfermented wine in those times.

As far as fornication goes, there are many Bible references that tell us to flee from sexual impurity:

Abstain from sexual immorality. Acts 15:29

Flee from sexual immorality.1 Cor. 6:18

But among you there just not be even a hint of sexual immorality…because these are improper for God’s holy people. Eph. 5:3

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: Sexual immorality [and] impurity…. Col 3:5

It is God’s will that you … should avoid sexual immorality.. 1 Thess. 4:3


I could find more but I do not have the time right now. These are key verses.

Yes I know this thread seemed rather old, but it was not locked, so it is ok right?

It really depends on what you mean by "moderation". Paul told Timothy to use wine for medicinal purposes. (I Timothy 5:24) I can't see that being wrong. But having had an alcololic dad, I know that even a little can often be too much. I'd stay away from it. :nod:

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

I know that even a little can often be too much. I'd stay away from it. :nod:

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I agree with you but as you said when one is not an alcoholic it doesn't matter if you drink. but everything with a limit. for example by religion it ia forbidden to drink but as everybody said before Christ drank wine and Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. so that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially.........

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Originally Posted by Kaltrina

Christ drank wine and Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially.........

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I can't deny what the scriptures plainly say, so I won't try! :) Carefully watch that limit, however. :)

"Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. so that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially........."

Could you give some reference that Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) drank wine? Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Could you give some reference that Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) drank wine? Thank you.

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You know Amra I am muslim, and people from my religion, who have read Holy Quran and other things about our religion told me that Propheto Mohammed drank wine, because it is healthy for ones blood, but of course menaing only one glass, not getting drunk.... :)

Assalamu aleikum,

I don't mean to be rude, but when we talk about Islam, we have to give valid references. People who merely practice the religion, and have no other qualifications to discuss it, are not valid references, and we cannot take their opinions on the issue if they cannot prove it with valid arguments. Prophet Mohammed a.s didn't drink because alcohol is strictly prohibited in Islam. There is no such thing as "moderation in drinking" because Islam goes by the principle that, one not only should not commit a sin, but shouldn't even come close to it. Alcohol, in any amounts, is strictly forbidden in Islam, and Prophet MOhammed a.s said:

"Surely Allah has cursed Al-Khamr(intoxicant) and cursed the one who brews it and the one for whom it is brewed, the one who drinks it and the one who serves it, the one who carries it and the one for whom it is carried, the one who buys and the one who eats (profits from) it's price. "

In the Holy Qu'ran, Allah s.v.t says:
"O you who believe! Intoxicants and gambling are an abomination of Satan's handiwork. Avoid such (abomination) that you may prosper. (Holy Quran, 5:90) "

The Taliban,(religious students) were cited by the United Nations as the worlds leading producer of opium,the raw material for heroin.

Maulvi Hafeezullah,an official in the Taliban"s Foreign Ministry stated;"We can unleash a heroin bomb to match the United States nuclear bomb."

What difference does it make what the Koran says if the Islamic powers don't obey it?

Wine aids in digestion and was drank at meals.It was also key in every orgie.I have never read that anyone drank grape juice at either.It has been written;Moses got totaly wasted just after getting off the boat!
I prefer weed myself,but if you must drink,please dont drive.

"What difference does it make what the Koran says if the Islamic powers don't obey it?"

ONe has nothing to do with the other. The fact that some people are not following Qur'an doesn't negate the existence of it. God doesn't depend on people, nor does our following or not following of His Law effect the existence of the Law.

Hmm..some people not following the Koran.Keen observation,but more importantly they are Clerics with a very large,very violent backing that claim they are following the Law!
I think they are upset over portions ?

I don't think I understand your observation. Are YOU upset about something? :)

God forbid I should be upset about anything.I find it interesting that a couple believers will quible over whether or not Muhammad ever tasted alcohol!Its the thing that schisms and wars are fought over.Did you know he married a 12 year old?

"Did you know he married a 12 year old?"

Actually, Aisha r.a was 9 when they were married.

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Originally Posted by Amra

"Did you know he married a 12 year old?"

Actually, Aisha r.a was 9 when they were married.

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Intresting,do you suppose they waited untill she turned 12 to consummate?

I was also curious as to how Khadijah,his first wife, an older ,urbane woman of the world,that gave him a job ,felt about Aisha,but couldn't find anything in the Sunnah?Got any input...and please include you source.
than,you...okmit

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Originally Posted by Amra

"Did you know he married a 12 year old?"

Actually, Aisha r.a was 9 when they were married.

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Intresting,do you suppose they waited untill she turned 12 to consummate?

I was also curious as to how Khadijah,his first wife, an older ,urbane woman of the world,that gave him a job ,felt about Aisha,but couldn't find anything in the Sunnah?Got any input...and please include you source.
than,you...okmit

I want to ask some questions. Why do people drink wine? And what makes it different from other drinks? To help digesting? To have courage to do things? To feel cheerful and mery? If so, the one who drinks it lacks something in his/her life and finds in wine a surogate. But one day or another, it will be the cause of his/her destruction. Better face my destiny and manage my life without the help of stimulant than to find myself addicted due to a mistake of overdosage.

For that a profet dranck wine during his life, is better to give a proof of it that to say herasy. That's why quotations are part of the English grammar.

"Intresting,do you suppose they waited untill she turned 12 to consummate?

I was also curious as to how Khadijah,his first wife, an older ,urbane woman of the world,that gave him a job ,felt about Aisha,but couldn't find anything in the Sunnah?Got any input...and please include you source.
than,you...okmit"

Khadijah was dead when Prophet Mohammed married Aisha r.a. If she ever felt anything about her, we certainly had no way to find out. :)

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Originally Posted by Amra

"Intresting,do you suppose they waited untill she turned 12 to consummate?

I was also curious as to how Khadijah,his first wife, an older ,urbane woman of the world,that gave him a job ,felt about Aisha,but couldn't find anything in the Sunnah?Got any input...and please include you source.
than,you...okmit"

Khadijah was dead when Prophet Mohammed married Aisha r.a. If she ever felt anything about her, we certainly had no way to find out. :)

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According to Hadith, marriage at 6. Consummation at 9. This is why in Iran, the marriage age was lowered from 15 to 9. Kadijah, the first wife, died before the other wives were taken. This is my understanding.

"According to Hadith, marriage at 6. Consummation at 9. This is why in Iran, the marriage age was lowered from 15 to 9. Kadijah, the first wife, died before the other wives were taken. This is my understanding"

The age itself doesn't determine the maturity. It is the onset of puberty that determines it.

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Originally Posted by okmit

God forbid I should be upset about anything.I find it interesting that a couple believers will quible over whether or not Muhammad ever tasted alcohol!Its the thing that schisms and wars are fought over.Did you know he married a 12 year old?

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I think one must consider the time period and cultural practices of the age, okmit. Of course, marrying a 12 year old nowadays, in civilized cultures, seems nearly unheard of, and frowned upon, for moral reasons.
One cannot judge someone for practicing their cultural norms, however, as I have no doubt other cultures point (and pointed) and laugh (and laughed) at us. I should also inform you that you type these messages on a literature forum; Edgar Allan Poe married his 13-year-old cousin, long after Mohammed's existence, but I doubt if anyone can refute his genius.

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Originally Posted by mono

I think one must consider the time period and cultural practices of the age, okmit. Of course, marrying a 12 year old nowadays, in civilized cultures, seems nearly unheard of, and frowned upon, for moral reasons.
One cannot judge someone for practicing their cultural norms, however, as I have no doubt other cultures point (and pointed) and laugh (and laughed) at us. I should also inform you that you type these messages on a literature forum; Edgar Allan Poe married his 13-year-old cousin, long after Mohammed's existence, but I doubt if anyone can refute his genius.

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I had a pen-pal in Tehran. I asked him once if he ever saw a nine year old bride. He said one only sees such young brides rarely in very remote areas, among nomadic tribes, but not in the big cities.

Gandhi, in his autobiography, writes in detail about his marriage to Kasturbai at age 6. The bride is brought into the family and they play as children. When he was twelve or so, an uncle took him aside and explained that now it was time for him to be with his wife, and then explained the details. For years, Gandhi wondered who it was who took Kasturbai aside, for she seem to know the details, but he never had the temerity to ask her. She died after they had been married 60 or more years. His grief was inconsolable at the loss of such a lifelong companion.

Gandhi states, in his autobiography, that personally he considered the practice of child marriage monstrous. The practice of child marriage was subsequently outlawed in India.

I wasnt being facetious.I wasnt sure if it was Muhammad,Edgar,or Jerry Lee Lewis of the "Great Balls A Fire" fame that married a 12 year old.I was a bit surprised by the sharia,6 & 9!
While West Virginia would frown on 6 & 9,its my understanding they are quite Liberal about little girls and cousins an such.(that is facetious.)

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Originally Posted by mono

I think one must consider the time period and cultural practices of the age, okmit. Of course, marrying a 12 year old nowadays, in civilized cultures, seems nearly unheard of, and frowned upon, for moral reasons.
One cannot judge someone for practicing their cultural norms, however, as I have no doubt other cultures point (and pointed) and laugh (and laughed) at us. I should also inform you that you type these messages on a literature forum; Edgar Allan Poe married his 13-year-old cousin, long after Mohammed's existence, but I doubt if anyone can refute his genius.

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Mono,this is not the first time you have pointed out this is a literature forum.I am aware of that, and also aware of Edgars pedophilia,his getting thrown out of his uncles house,school ,and the military.His addiction to alcohol,and opium and the miserable life he lived, and I also believe his "genius"is refutable.

Now that you have lectured me,you might want to go back and re-read what I wrote and see if I was being judgmental or simply asking a question?
I accept your apology in advance...your literate correspondent,okmit

Just FYI, until late 80-s, the earliest age for woman to be legally married in my country is 12 yo. This rule applied to accomodate the lifestyle of people living in the village, where level of education and knowledge of child/mother health care were still low. The age limitation then increase to 18 yo, which mostly aimed to lower death rate of mother and her baby due to early birth/pregnancy.


As for drinking alcohol, if I'm not mistaken, there's a verse in Bible that said (more or less) " it is easier for camel to enter needle hole, than for rich man to enter kingdom of heaven". However, I don't think Christianity prohibits its followers to be rich. It's ok to eat; but if you eat excessively, then it'd lead to problems. So same thing apply with drinking alcohol I guess.

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Just FYI, until late 80-s, the earliest age for woman to be legally married in my country is 12 yo. This rule applied to accomodate the lifestyle of people living in the village, where level of education and knowledge of child/mother health care were still low. The age limitation then increase to 18 yo, which mostly aimed to lower death rate of mother and her baby due to early birth/pregnancy.


As for drinking alcohol, if I'm not mistaken, there's a verse in Bible that said (more or less) " it is easier for camel to enter needle hole, than for rich man to enter kingdom of heaven". However, I don't think Christianity prohibits its followers to be rich. It's ok to eat; but if you eat excessively, then it'd lead to problems. So same thing apply with drinking alcohol I guess.

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There is a verse in the New Testament, in the Epistle of Timothy, which says " a LITTLE wine is good for the health." Theologians often point to this and emphasize that the verse recommends moderation rather than drinking a whole lot. Many Protestant groups believe very strongly that any alcohol is bad. One new minister to a certain church gave a sermon about the very first miracle which Jesus is said to have worked, at the marriage in Cana, changing water to wine. The parishoners became furious because the minister mentioned alcoholic beverage. There are Christian denominations which insist that Jesus used grape juice for the Eucharist at the Last Supper, and that "new wine" refers to grape juice. But this is obviously inaccurate, since in the Book of Acts, at Pentecost, it mentions that everyone thought the Apostles drunk with new wine.

I have my own little idealism that I live by - Do what you want to do, as long as, in doing this, you do not offend or hurt or expect others to do the same as you. This has served me well over the years, I do not follow any other eligion than this.
I have recently moved house and my new neighbours are two american christian faith workers... they travel to schools and churches to spread their love of Jesus. When I moved in they asked me to come and party with them. That was how they phrased it "Come party with us!!". So I turned up, when they said with a small bottle of vodka and a bottle of coke.
They were actually disgusted with the fact that I had brought alcohol to their place with the intension of getting a bit drunk.
I understand that it was THEIR house and I respect that they are (as I now know) not drinkers of alcohol - but as they threw me out the door I couldn't help but think, 'You could have simply not drank it!!'

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Originally Posted by adilyoussef

I want to ask some questions. Why do people drink wine? And what makes it different from other drinks? To help digesting? To have courage to do things? To feel cheerful and mery? If so, the one who drinks it lacks something in his/her life and finds in wine a surogate. But one day or another, it will be the cause of his/her destruction. Better face my destiny and manage my life without the help of stimulant than to find myself addicted due to a mistake of overdosage.

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You forgot one thing: People could just like to drink wine. Some sorts of wine taste really good. (Not that I know that much about wine ... I'm just collecting (full) bottles. ;) )

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Originally Posted by Johnny Odd

I have my own little idealism that I live by - Do what you want to do, as long as, in doing this, you do not offend or hurt or expect others to do the same as you. This has served me well over the years, I do not follow any other eligion than this.
I have recently moved house and my new neighbours are two american christian faith workers... they travel to schools and churches to spread their love of Jesus. When I moved in they asked me to come and party with them. That was how they phrased it "Come party with us!!". So I turned up, when they said with a small bottle of vodka and a bottle of coke.
They were actually disgusted with the fact that I had brought alcohol to their place with the intension of getting a bit drunk.
I understand that it was THEIR house and I respect that they are (as I now know) not drinkers of alcohol - but as they threw me out the door I couldn't help but think, 'You could have simply not drank it!!'

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The was a woman by the name of Carrie A. Nation who worked very hard in the movement to ban the sale of alcholic beverages in the U.S.A. In those days, around the late 1800's to early 1900's you would hear the phrase "demon rum." The movent to ban alcohol was called The Temperance Movement. I had a hard time remembering the term "temperance". I had to google for it. All I could think of was prohibition, abolition, and suffrage. The prohibition laws were eventually passed. This made possible the world which F. Scott Fitzgerald made famous in "The Great Gatsby".



There are Christian groups who literally believe that a devil is present in the alcohol. Perhaps this is part of the reason why you were "thrown out."