What is love?

it writes, 'various ways'.

Interesting to me, there are people who, after 25 years of proding each other each day, don't call it love anymore, then suddenly rally and cry when the other falls ill.

Assuming one bad day in a 1000, so .001 hate, is showing just how incontainable love is, its never black and white.

The passage is showing that a little giving may have saved this love, a failure.

Thanks, Digital... and then there are 'Love Hate' relationships. Love unrequited, unresolved, unsolved, lost, unreturned,... returned, et cetera ad infinituum.

And, yes, I hate my medicine.

Is it a realistic attitude to expect love to be all positive and expect the loved ones to be 'perfect'? We are not perfect (OK, maybe I should speak for myself) and I don't want to be loved in that light either... What a great burden to carry, trying to live up to someone's expectations all the time, being placed on a pedestal. There is a quote I love by Faulkner:

“Loving all of it even while he had to hate some of it because he knows now that you don't love because: you love despite; not for the virtues, but despite the faults.”

Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.

I agree and disagree. If love IS like God, then truly believeing that, you will give love unconditionally to even the unlovable. While it is true that the discovery of love can be quite serendipitous, our charge for loving others (in the sense that you equate love to God ) is absolute, complete, and impartial. Maybe if all followed this principle, we might find what is understood as heaven right here on earth.

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Originally Posted by one_raven

Love is a verb.
It is not some ethereal, undescribable, unattainable emotion floating in the aether.
The connection between people comes from attraction, physical, emotional, intellectual...
Whatever it is you find attracive in a person.
Of course, there is also the ideals of protection, caring, faith, opneness and all the other aspects that make two people attracted to each other.

Love, on the other hand, is simply an action.
It is treating the person you care with honor and respect.
It is being honest, straight-forward and earning the trust that someone has decided to place in you.
It is being patient, kind and supportive.

"But he loves me."...
When I hear that half of me feels horribly sad and the other half gets viciously angry.
If he did, there would never be a "But" in front of that!

Love is not an excuse, a tool or a damned weapon.
It is not a commodity.
It is not anything but simple respectful treatment for the person you appreciate, desire and value.

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if love is like this, don't you think it is a little bit too hard to enjoy?
i think there are too many premises of the love in your opinion.
let's assume there is this extremely selfish guy in Wall Street who only cares about money, can he love?
If he does love a girl very much and will do everything to make her happy, but meantime he will not shed a crocodile's tear for a handicapped kid struggling in the street, then is his love for the girl still unconditional love?
i think there is no saint in the world, every man has flaw. even a man has the unbelievalble love for his sweet heart, still sometimes they will quarrel and fight.
maybe people just dont and wont know what love is like, so we will keep on think about, pore on, and imagine love.
once i read a novel, Gramigna's Lover by Giovanni Verga. The girl, Peppa,fell in love with this gangster,Gramigna, with absolutely no reason. she never met him ,nor had a piture of him. she just knew his name and the fact that he killed a lot of people and was wanted by the police. this girl was not insane and she didn't love murder, moreover, she had a very handsome and successful fiance. but just before the wedding, Peppa went out to find Gramigna, and had his baby, and then he was captured by the police. Afterwards, she lived beside the prison with her little baby girl. the end.
maybe every love is in this way, just your thought.

there are no saints in the world, so we can not afford saints' love.
Intellectuals keep thinking, creating love, which is in fact non-existent.
maybe just the fact there is no evindence of its existence is just what inspires and stimulates us to meditate over it.
kind of like god. if god is non-existent, there's no need to create it, guys.
if there is no such altruistic, unconditional, high-level love, there is no need creating it.
anyone here can claim that he is capable of and worth this acme-of-perfection love?
doubtful.......................................... .....................................

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money.
our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody.
However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money.
as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities.
Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
hope my country will be better off.
Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.

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I don't agree with you at all, Aragorn.
One truth prevails: the allurement of material things (money, electric products ...) do not only apply to some of our people-only if you look beyond the surface, knowing that roots in human nature, and study other nations, especially those who have practiced capitalism for centuries, for you to see what is going on there(we have evidence here).
Unblamable is that our denizens make more money under the economic reform in the latest decades, all to improve living conditions when some social problems emerge which is inevitable.
"Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.
Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.).
Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too.
I personally tend to think that there will be a war between China Mainland and Taiwan, very likely.

"We come to love not by finding the perfect person; but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly" Well....i didnt say that...Sam Keene did!

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Originally Posted by Honey_Ryder62

Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.

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if god doesn't exist, there is not need to create it.

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Originally Posted by white camellia

"Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.

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i have never been to chengdu, so i keep my mouth shut about the situation there. but for the regions along the coast, i am sure of three things:
first, in china, most rich men are not intelligent. their money is earned by dirty means. most of them are ugly, barefaced, shallow-hearted,and narrow-minded, and always trying to find some tweenkie girls. Wives and kids they have; loyelty and reponsibility they haven't.
Secondly, even maybe some of the rich guys are intelligent, but the girls are not throwing themslves to the rich's beds to find intelligence. knowing those guys iare as old as their fathers, and has families and everything, you would believe that the girls are looking for something of high spiritual level? are you kidding me?
The third, many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit???? can you just give me one example, from the people that we both know, like movie stars or writers......


"Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too."
i am not complaining, i am just disappointed, not just by my girl friend, but by everything here.

Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.).

i dont think so. but i dont have enough time to argue with you tonight. going to study.
still, nice hearing your opinions.

Lu Xun once said, true intellectuals are always disappointed, because they are always unsatisafied, they want things better.
i just want things better like you do, white camelia.
but in my opinion, china has heard enough praise nowadays, i will not add any more.
i think we are blinded by the economic achievements. Man, time will not go back. we have only one chance. what if we are in a wrong way? what if the results are irredeemable? we have but one chance. and out there billions of people are suffering. man, maybe you are a beneficiary of the reform and openness. but some are not.
do not judge too soon. think about it, we have just one chance. no one wants to screw it up. i am concerned about motherland, but i dont want to say sweet words no more.
you are so sure that the path we are oursuing is the right one? well maybe you are sure, but some are not. i am not sure. that's why i choose economics as my major. i want to make sure things are getting better, not worse, and not for short term, but in long term, not for a special previliged group, but for the majority.
maybe we can catch up with the developed countries economically, but culturally it's much and much hard.

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Originally Posted by jackyyyy

Don't be confused.. its the curse of the richman to be straddled with such a fickle minded woman.. and a blessing to the poorman that he is left to move along and meet the right one. She ain't worth a ball bearing on that BMW. My humble advice because I don't know what love is.. don't go looking for it, it will find you.

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Ai, true love is not a beast that can be hunted, it will be found only when you are not looking for it.

love is too deep to describe in words because words can never come close to the dept of thoughts of emotions. LOve is the emotion that can only be pure when two people encounter a real commited friendship. Its not easy nor is it hard. It is the essentials to life. Therefore, don't force yourself to love (verb) or pressure your true self to love (noun).

Thats my philosophy of love from my experience.

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Originally Posted by white camellia

I don't agree with you at all, Aragorn.
One truth prevails: the allurement of material things (money, electric products ...) do not only apply to some of our people-only if you look beyond the surface, knowing that roots in human nature, and study other nations, especially those who have practiced capitalism for centuries, for you to see what is going on there(we have evidence here).
Unblamable is that our denizens make more money under the economic reform in the latest decades, all to improve living conditions when some social problems emerge which is inevitable.
"Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.
Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.).
Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too.
I personally tend to think that there will be a war between China Mainland and Taiwan, very likely.

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I was wondering what your opinion would be, white camellia.

I'm not sure it's relevant to say that complaints don't make a country better, or true. They may be the beginning of taking some kind of action to improve things. On the whole though, does it matter? If you get dumped by someone - especially over something as crass as a BMW - or your country seems to be going to hell in a handbasket, the first thing you want to do is just say you feel bad about it.

This is a very interesting thread - and not because of the old 'what is love' question.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

knowing those guys iare as old as their fathers, and has families and everything, you would believe that the girls are looking for something of high spiritual level? are you kidding me?
The third, many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit???? can you just give me one example, from the people that we both know, like movie stars or writers......Lu Xun once said, true intellectuals are always disappointed, because they are always unsatisafied, they want things better.

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Yes, I believe. From myself, and some others like me. That one girl betrayed you does not mean that another would. The old-fashioned one is still living undiscovered...I don't think I need to exemplify an argument here to support my belief in Chinese girls, or spiritual women as they do exist mostly as nameless who are living their own lives, not for fame. Writers tend to have a better intelligence, but not those kind of writers who merely dangle among readers' appetites, and for sheer commercial profit. Lu Xun also said "Either aroused in silence, or extinguished". Complainers do not make a better country, practitioners do.

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Originally Posted by blp

I was wondering what your opinion would be, white camellia.

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About what is love?
Actually, I've just begun to learn what is love and how to love as well as be loved in return since a year ago-my first time ever so close to true love, and in the hope that my last time.
I just found the first line from Contessa's opinion about love exactly express me, and I am inspired to say: I would love to live with my precious in a cave on 'Mountain Delectable' if he needs me to, or we need to.
It's been almost 3am here, and I haven't slept for a mini-second. How ruthless the time is that it goes so fast at notice that I'll have to get up for my morning class at 6am soon!
So I quit here, for now.

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Originally Posted by white camellia

Yes, I believe. From myself, and some others like me. That one girl betrayed you does not mean that another would. The old-fashioned one is still living undiscovered...I don't think I need to exemplify an argument here to support my belief in Chinese girls, or spiritual women as they do exist mostly as nameless who are living their own lives, not for fame. Writers tend to have a better intelligence, but not those kind of writers who merely dangle among readers' appetites, and for sheer commercial profit. Lu Xun also said "Either aroused in silence, or extinguished". Complainers do not make a better country, practitioners do.

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so practitioner means one has to admit that everything in China is right?
in my university, beijing foreign studies university, i have a very vivid experience about chinese girls. on friday evening and monday morning, you can see a long line of fancy cars on campus, and they drive fast than wind. on friday evening, they come and pick up girls, and on monday morning, at 6to 8 oclock, they drive the girls back.
our university is so-called beauty university, and several universities around here, like dance academy and art academy witness the same drama.
i am talking about the majority. if there is one girl doing this, no big deal. hewever, there are hundreds doing this while they are still in university. you wanna ask me to admit this is a good thing stimultated by economic success?
yes, there are good girl, a lot. but, what i am talking about is the atmosphere is so rotten and corrupted, even universites, such a pure place can not escape, that is an issue that needs the country's attention.
doubtful......
either arouse in silence, or extinguish, yes, that's why i am so angry. hehe.
my opinion is no more putting economics first.

you guys wanna here something ironic? 'that girl' came back a few days ago and apologized. She cried and everything, begging me to take her back. i dont know what to say.............................................

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Originally Posted by white camellia

About what is love?
Actually, I've just begun to learn what is love and how to love as well as be loved in return since a year ago-my first time ever so close to true love, and in the hope that my last time.
I just found the first line from Contessa's opinion about love exactly express me, and I am inspired to say: I would love to live with my precious in a cave on 'Mountain Delectable' if he needs me to, or we need to.
It's been almost 3am here, and I haven't slept for a mini-second. How ruthless the time is that it goes so fast at notice that I'll have to get up for my morning class at 6am soon!
So I quit here, for now.

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Well actually, I meant I'd been curious to know how you were going to respond to what was being said about China and Chinese women. Somehow I can't imagine you dumping someone over a BMW or demanding the best table in a restaurant.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

you guys wanna here something ironic? 'that girl' came back a few days ago and apologized. She cried and everything, begging me to take her back. i dont know what to say.............................................

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Maybe ask her if she realises you still don't have a BMW.

I did not say that Every Chinese Girl deserves our respect, some do get lost in material things, such as BMW that I don't behold valuable if procured at the cost of love and one's truth.
I've heard of those scandals in some foreign language institutions long ago and I don't consider it virtuous and wise. Women should appreciate themselves. But, they are not the only ones to blame. Though this is indeed a phenomenon at some localities, but that cannot represent the whole. How many such lost women compared to the whole at one institution, how many foreign institutions compared to the overall universities, and how many females in those institutions compared to all others in every universities? You can consider then the minority and the majority.
I did not say that everything is going on right here, not here, not everywhere on earth.
I do feel sorry for those who are betrayed once or twice by their ex-girlfriends, or ex-boyfriends, but is not this a very personal thing to grieve or complain on your own? Better not make any victims here.

agree with that the girls are the victims to blame.
as i already mentioned, i dont blame anyone. i didn't become cynical for that. and i do think economic growth is a good thing.
but, still, i think the phenomenon in those universities do reflect some problem. they are perhaps a small fraction compared tp all the chinese people. yet as far as i am concerned, this aspect revealed a quite serious problem. chinese proverb: an immense dam can collapse because of a small ant cave. right?
in fact, there are so many problems here, which make me think we are just on a broken rocket. although it is soaring to the sky, but some day in the future, it is gonna fall to the ground, heavily.
this is my anxiety.

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Originally Posted by white camellia

is not this a very personal thing to grieve or complain on your own? Better not make any victims here.

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if you read though all my posts, you can see that
i was definitely not complaining. everyone has hie/her own choices............
blaming no one.
truth, justice, peace, i seek.
anger, lust, grreedy, i disdain.
there maybe no war between mainland and taiwan.
or at least, i hope so.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Find an old fashion girl who will appreciate you.

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A very good suggestion! ;)

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money.
our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody.

they are perhaps a small fraction compared tp all the chinese people.

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do not be so absolute, that may not lead you closer to the truth

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Originally Posted by Honey_Ryder62

Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.

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so i don't believe in love because i don't believe in love? or viceversa? :confused: :D

as for finding it when you are ready or not, rules on that are the biggest kind of bullsh*t that can be said.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

hope my country will be better off.
Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.

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Most people are still nice ones. If they seemed not, we may infer that they are misguided, and lost.
"China is going crazy"-Can we simply conclude it with a word like "crazy"? Those spreading diseases here concern us all. Some place is indeed in turmoil to some extent, even an upheaval across the nation; then collapse? and get reborn in the end, but in another social form that can fit the development of productivity? Actually, this period of our great nation just reminds me of those days when our people were striving for a revival in the earliest decades of last century.
Which can really save human, Fascism, Capitalism or Communism? A communist should have faith in Communism.

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Originally Posted by white camellia

Which can really save human, Fascism, Capitalism or Communism? A communist should have faith in Communism.

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i am definitely no communist. the road to serfdom [B] by Hayek destroyed my last straw of hope in communism.

no matter which is good for our country, i will try to find it, though yet i still have absolutely no idea. and i do think china is going too far on the track. it is the high time to slow down and think about what we are doing. in this year's NPC meeting premier Weh Jiabao said the growth rate of GDP will be slowed to 7% in next 5 years, which i take as a good sign. i am worried if this situation is not handled tactfully, the high-speed train of china would go off track in future.
the growth of economy relies to much on extensive investment. and we do rank the 194th in medical care system among a total 198 countries. and the disparity between rich and poor ranks 166. the corruption problem rank 179; the pollution problem ranks 181. with a 4th ranked economy, this is appalling.
and many other issues, no need and impossible to list them all.
you seem to be so optimistic, well i am not. there are nice peoplein china. and that's good. but that's none of my business. my job is to make a difference to the situation that yet i am not totally satisfied.
i dont know what to do yet; what i do know is something has to be done, either bu you or by me or by any other people, to ensure those 0.2billion people who are still living under 1 dollor a day will have a teeny tiny hope for their future......
i am not complaining; i want to identify the problem, find its cause, and give resolution, which i still lack the knowledge to do.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

no matter which is good for our country, i will try to find it, though yet i still have absolutely no idea. i am not complaining; i want to identify the problem, find its cause, and give resolution, which i still lack the knowledge to do.

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Very good then, Aragorn! ;)

nice talking to you.

I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.

This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
"I am only human, after all - not a saint."
Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
I am hardly talking about perfection.
I am not talking about people without faults.
I have not implied that a "good", "loving" or even "perfect" relationship is without disagreements.
In fact, the more you care for a person, the more likely you will disagree and argue.
If you care for the person's well-being and happiness and you witness behavior in your partner that you believe is detrimental to them somehow then the act of loving them requires that you will take a stand against such behavior.
This action is not a lack of respect, standing up against someone who is hurting themselves and not allowing it to continue without a fight is an act of the utmost respect and honor.
There is a great difference, however, between a nasty fight with personal attacks and disrespectful language and a heated, passionate argument.
The latter is an act of love, it is allowing your partner to be who they are and vice versa, while acknowledging differences between you.
The former, however, is intended to hurt your partner.
ANY act with the intention to hurt is simply not borne of love and is NOT an act of love.

I recognize that many relationships have raging rivers that require the painstaking effort of cooperating to build bridges to get past these rivers.
I also recognize, however, that without mutual respect these obstacles are extraordinarily difficult to surmount, if they are surmountable at all.

What happens to a relationship without mutual respect?
What happend when heated arguments cross that threshold to personal attacks intended to hurt?
I am sure many here have been there.
If you are not treated respectfully, you feel the need to protect yourself, so become defensive.
That defensiveness will grow and strengthen.
You begin to lose your faith in the trust you placed in this person, and righfully so.
Your defensiveness will inevitably escalate as your withdraw further, and what is elevated defensiveness, but offensiveness?
You go on the attack as well.
Fights happen more often, and lead to worse attacks.
This downward spiral continues until the relationship eventaully implodes.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many people continue in the farce of a relationship even AFTER it implodes.
He is only human after all - not a saint.
She just had a bad day... again.
Bull****!
Have higher standards.
Have a bit more self-respect.
Have a bit more respect for others - especially those you care about.

Most of the people that I have known who stay in relationships without love stay because they have a serious lack of self esteem that manifests itself as either thinking they don't deserve better, can't get better or simply can't be happy unless in a relationship and this is what is here now.
That makes me sad.
THAT is not love.

Scheherazade,
I disagree with the sentiment of your quote. You do not love despite someone's faults, you love someone because of their faults.


Along another vain...
"Love" is wholly and painfully insufficient as a noun for so many reasons.
Not the least of which, all that is encompassed when people refer to what they feel as "love", should be so much more (and varied) than a single word could encompass.
I prefer to be more specific.
I care about someone's well-being.
I have compassion for someone.
I feel a strong sexual desire for someone.
I adore someone.
I would die to spare someone's life.
I would kill to spare someone's life.
etc...
"Love" (the noun) performs the same pathetic action that any other "all-encompassing" label performs.
It serves to qualify, quantify and per-package the vast breadth and depth of an extraordinarily complex, unique and personal experience.
It simplifies that which should most certainly not be simplified.
It limits, restrains and lends a deplorable disservice to the actual experience by boiling them down, distilling them and compartmentalizing them for mass consumption.

Again, love is a verb.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money.
our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody.
However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money.
as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities.
Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
hope my country will be better off.
Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.

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(I haven't read all the posts in this thread so I hope i'm not repeating what's been said before)...
wow, you must be a very mature and good-natured guy if you try not to blame her...
I don't wanna be rude, but in the long run you're probably lucky she left you (no offence!)... i mean, it's not your duty to buy her a BMW. if she wants one let her work and earn her own money so she can buy one herself! can women get well-paid jobs in China? I think they have equal rights officially?? are there any liberated, independent women in China? if you want my advice, try to get to know women who can look after themselves. that way they won't expect you to break your back for them. They might be more difficult to get along with than old-fashioned women, but they will like you for who you are, not for materialistic reasons...

what is love??? i think there's as many answers to that question as there are couples.... I got to know my boyfriend at univ and first we were just friends... so it's wasn't very romantic or passionate, but that way we got to know each other before we got together, so we didn't have too many silly expectations... he's still like a very good friend plus some more... .. forget about sex.. it IS one of the most important aspects of a relationship, but if you like and respect someone very much it will sort itself out, no need to worry about it....

This song sums it up better than most.

Quote:

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The Verb 'To Love'

Todd Rundgren

Some people tell me that love is a feeling
or a possession
Somehow it seems so cold
And when they say love is sweet,
does it mean that you eat it?
Maybe you drink it,
does it fill up an empty hole?

I'm lookin' for a love and I may not find it
You know it doesn't mean a thing
without some action behind it

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your mama and your papa are crying all alone
You better let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we get the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'
What does it mean to love?

And when somebody needs love,
do they spend some money?
Say something funny,
ask for some tenderness?
And when you wanna touch of love,
do you lie on your back?
Stand on your head,
how do you feel it best?

I'm looking for a love with no strings attached
To take me like I am, that's the only catch

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your wife and your lover are crying all alone
You better let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we learn the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'

Does it mean any more,
the more you talk about it
Is it anymore real
if you jump around and shout it
I'm sick and tired of hearing
'bout everyone without it and
Too much talkin' sends me walkin'
Night is falling and everybody's calling for love

Everybody's lookin' for their one and only
It's only just a game 'cause they're scared to be lonely

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your brothers and your sisters are crying all alone
You got let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we get the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'
What does it mean to love?

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by one_raven

I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.

This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
"I am only human, after all - not a saint."
Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
I am hardly talking about perfection.
I am not talking about people without faults.
I have not implied that a "good", "loving" or even "perfect" relationship is without disagreements.
In fact, the more you care for a person, the more likely you will disagree and argue.
If you care for the person's well-being and happiness and you witness behavior in your partner that you believe is detrimental to them somehow then the act of loving them requires that you will take a stand against such behavior.
This action is not a lack of respect, standing up against someone who is hurting themselves and not allowing it to continue without a fight is an act of the utmost respect and honor.
There is a great difference, however, between a nasty fight with personal attacks and disrespectful language and a heated, passionate argument.
The latter is an act of love, it is allowing your partner to be who they are and vice versa, while acknowledging differences between you.
The former, however, is intended to hurt your partner.
ANY act with the intention to hurt is simply not borne of love and is NOT an act of love.

I recognize that many relationships have raging rivers that require the painstaking effort of cooperating to build bridges to get past these rivers.
I also recognize, however, that without mutual respect these obstacles are extraordinarily difficult to surmount, if they are surmountable at all.

What happens to a relationship without mutual respect?
What happend when heated arguments cross that threshold to personal attacks intended to hurt?
I am sure many here have been there.
If you are not treated respectfully, you feel the need to protect yourself, so become defensive.
That defensiveness will grow and strengthen.
You begin to lose your faith in the trust you placed in this person, and righfully so.
Your defensiveness will inevitably escalate as your withdraw further, and what is elevated defensiveness, but offensiveness?
You go on the attack as well.
Fights happen more often, and lead to worse attacks.
This downward spiral continues until the relationship eventaully implodes.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many people continue in the farce of a relationship even AFTER it implodes.
He is only human after all - not a saint.
She just had a bad day... again.
Bull****!
Have higher standards.
Have a bit more self-respect.
Have a bit more respect for others - especially those you care about.

Most of the people that I have known who stay in relationships without love stay because they have a serious lack of self esteem that manifests itself as either thinking they don't deserve better, can't get better or simply can't be happy unless in a relationship and this is what is here now.
That makes me sad.
THAT is not love.

Scheherazade,
I disagree with the sentiment of your quote. You do not love despite someone's faults, you love someone because of their faults.


Along another vain...
"Love" is wholly and painfully insufficient as a noun for so many reasons.
Not the least of which, all that is encompassed when people refer to what they feel as "love", should be so much more (and varied) than a single word could encompass.
I prefer to be more specific.
I care about someone's well-being.
I have compassion for someone.
I feel a strong sexual desire for someone.
I adore someone.
I would die to spare someone's life.
I would kill to spare someone's life.
etc...
"Love" (the noun) performs the same pathetic action that any other "all-encompassing" label performs.
It serves to qualify, quantify and per-package the vast breadth and depth of an extraordinarily complex, unique and personal experience.
It simplifies that which should most certainly not be simplified.
It limits, restrains and lends a deplorable disservice to the actual experience by boiling them down, distilling them and compartmentalizing them for mass consumption.

Again, love is a verb.

---

YOU ARE RIGHT... THERE ARE STILL SOMETHING IN YOUR POST I AM A LITTLE BIT DAUBTFUL ABOUT, BUT BASICLY, YOU ARE RIGHT.

Though I did not read the post from S, it seems Scheherzade and One Raven are both only halfway there: You have to Love the parts you like about the beloved and love as well the parts you don't like. Otherwise, its not real Love and you best be moving on. Printed this out earlier today, says it as well as any words. David Bowie from Soul Love:

Love is careless in its choosing
Sweeping over cross a baby
Love descends on those defenceless
Idiot Love will spark the fusion
Inspirations have I none
Just to touch the flaming dove
All I have is my Love of Love
And Love is not Loving


Aragorn, hope that China works out, but what you describe is exactly what it is to be a stupid American: the ones who can use every means to have more money, more power, and more things. And the Earth an all of us living creatures suffer for it. One really has to focus themselves to have an intelligent or creative or, Loving path through this mess. But you'll meet friends along the way if you go...

A spanish author once wrote; "Love is the willingnss to extend oneself". I agree with that.

Love in the romantic sense is a biological mechanism to trap us into having sex and procreating. Love in the rational sense, is merely a sort of validated pride.
However, love in the poetic sense is the act of making yourself and someone (or something) else better through interaction which produces something that would never have been attained without the whole-hearted adherence to one specific goal by both or all of the parties. It isn't selfish nor is it selfless; it is self-full. If you think about it, for all people who claim to have a reason to live, in a broad sense it is the word used to identify that reason. Religious people claim to love God. Married people love their spouses. When you love is the only time you feel fully transcendent and more important than you know you could ever be. Its a bird's-eye view into your own soul, whereas all of the happiness is held in sight. It is the act of completely forgetting everything that you do not and cannot have. I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yizxik

I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.

---

Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

---

:lol:



"love between us is something that surpassed the language of words" I forgot where I got this, but I always keep such an abstract entity of love before me. Proper silence might conceive the depth of love and preserve it as what it is. One can translate the silence into pictorial feelings. This reminds me also of some lines from Emily Dickinson:
To tell the Beauty would decrease
To state the Spell demean--
There is a syllable-less Sea
Of which it is the sign--

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

---

Does an expert on classical history need live
under the rule of a Roman emperor?

"I have little doubt that when St. George had killed the dragon he was heartily afraid of the princess." - The Victorian

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline." - Manalive

"The whole pleasure of marriage is that it is a perpetual crisis." - "David Copperfield,"

Although I passionately believe in love being from the depths of the heart and a covenant between two hearts I also thought there was some merit in the above. :D

Love is like the idea of Dao. (as in Dao in the Daoist sense) a sort of undescribable entity than any description does not acuratly describe it.

i think love is very silly and ruins a girl's/boy's life. just the fact that you know a boy or a girl(opposite sex) can cause problems. trust me. in my school i am knowm to be a very quite girl and make no problems. then i met this guy and ever since then i lost my bestest friend and other friends which i was really close to and every one started to change. only because i spoke with him and laughed with him. ever since then i hated boys ( no offence) because they caused me problems!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's not quite fair. There's a joke that says, "Ever since Eve gave Adam the apple, there has been a grave misunderstanding between the sexes about gifts." Girls have laid problems galore at the guys' doorstep, but you don't see us forsaking you entirely. Many of us are content to gather and complain communally from time to time--when our significant others aren't putting the kibosh on that, too.

maybe i think this way because i want to have a peacefull life!!!! i would rather stay on the sfae side of no problems than on the danger side of losing evry girl i love.
what do you think of love robinhood?

You sound like Jo in Little Women, who didn't want her sisters to marry and leave the house. I say that with affection!

Robin is true gentleman with the ladies, as you will see.

so what do you think of love?

I think love can bring you life or make your soul die. But it is the greatest emotion I ever felt and even though it tore me apart I wouldn't change anything...