Amen..........................
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Amen..........................
May Allah allow us to spend our eternity in the presence of all His Prophets. Amen.
A very interesting argument.And humane too.Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
I thought the subject of faith surpasses that of reason, or logic. There is a text that says "the Heart has its own reason that Reason knows nothing about." So when the value of truth is measured only by logic, then it will only produce a partial, or incomplete, or relative result. Logic is..is...Oh what is logic, anyway?
There are cases, which are not extraordinary, that you can still comprehend something though you cannot logically explain your comprehension. And, I think that's what makes human is so unique a being.
As a rule, a creator is (has to be) greater than its creature. So is God, the Logos, greater than human, the logikos. The Logikos cannot contain the Logos. The Logikos can only understand what becomes its part to understand. As for the rest, it can comprehend only when it is given the capacity to comprehend. Given by whom? By the Logos, of course.
Now, if a subject that we call "God" does not have the capacity to take for himself the very nature of a human being, his creation, can that subject be truly God? does that subject deserve the place, the function and the name of God?
When we want to understand God, we must stand under God.
But, we are vulnarable creatures. We have not patience. And, to make the picture worse, we have pride and enjoy it....
And, as far as I know, my reading the history of the world shows me that human Reason, or Logic, or Ratio is always only a subject to human pride.
Bhekti: You've slightly lost me but the point I was trying to make was that religous teachings are inherently open to interpretation
You are aware that Islamic scholars have the benefit of hindsight
We are all blessed with logic and the ability to rationalise - unlike animals (maybe!)
This enables us to understand each other and achieve peace :yawnb:
dear readers
it is really a thorny question because we don't know how do u think about Muslims... anyway the answer is , YES, Muslims do love Jesus because they were asked in their holy book "QURAN" to believe in all the prophets of Allah and the miracles they were sent withand also respect all relegions
Although the thread is clear and simple ,I don't know why somebody wants to complicate it :)
The thread is about the Islamic point view about Jesus (peace should be upon him) I have selected for many reasons:
Some of you think that muslims hate him , as some one has mentioned that here .also
to clarify the cause from using my user name "lover of Jesus" in this forum
[QUOTE=lover of jesus]IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!"
so there is no any intention in deceiving you
peace should be on all prophetes
regaaaards :wave:
[QUOTE=lover of jesus]Although the thread is clear and simple ,I don't know why somebody wants to complicate it :)
The thread is about the Islamic point view about Jesus (peace should be upon him) I have selected for many reasons:
Some of you think that muslims hate him , as some one has mentioned that here .also
to clarify the cause from using my user name "lover of Jesus" in this forum
"5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
from the gospel of John, chapter 6, verses 5 - 14
I hope you understand my point view .....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
"Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different than anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips...
...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
From C.S. Lewis' , "Mere Christianity" Macmillan Publishing Co, New York, NY. Copyright 1952.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenburke
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of
crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?
If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?
i admit that he is agreat prophet (peace should be upon him)...:)
because, God humbled himself and became came a man. Jesus was fully God and fully man. Yes God our Savior.... who can forgive sins but God alone? humility, example, sacrifice. my God loved me enough to die for my sins, my Lord and my God.
1 Corinthians 2
verse 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.
Isaiah 40
verse 13 Who has understood the mind [d] of the LORD,
or instructed him as his counselor?
How could God punish himselfe or send himself to Hell ,just to forgive our sins??Quote:
Originally Posted by greenburke
He could do that without agonizing himself , because –in easy word- He is God
There is big different between God and Jesus(peace should be upon him)
1. God is All Knowing...but Jesus was not. When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans...but Jesus was flesh and blood. While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him...but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion:
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
O you who want the truth, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is One, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.
What is the word of God about Jesus?
A. Regarding the Sonship of Jesus:
“ That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be', and it is” (Qur'an 19:34-35).
“ And they say, 'The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son'. You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-Merciful as a servant ” (Qur'an 19:88-93).
“ Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be', and he was” (Qur'an 3:59).
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three', Refrain, better it is for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, God suffices for a guardian.
B. Regarding Jesus being God.
“ And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He said, 'To You be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness over everything” (Qur'an 5:116-117).
C. Regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus.
“ And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty...no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them” (Qur'an 4:156-159).
regards:)
Mark 2 verses 1-12
1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"
Isaiah 43:10-13
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?"
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Acts 13:23 NIV Read this Chapter
"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.
Philippians 3:20 NIV Read this Chapter
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Timothy 1:1 NIV Read this Chapter
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2 Timothy 1:10 NIV Read this Chapter
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Titus 1:4 NIV Read this Chapter
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 2:13 NIV Read this Chapter
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:6 NIV Read this Chapter
whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2 Peter 1:1 NIV Read this Chapter
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11 NIV Read this Chapter
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 2:20 NIV Read this Chapter
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
John 1:1 - 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 14:8 - 14
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Matt 4:10 ...... for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
St paul tells you in acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Clear in black and white, Read my lips A MAN APPROVED OF GOD, A PRO__PHET Not GOD
Matt 4:10 ...... for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
St paul tells in acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Clear in black and white, Read my lips A MAN APPROVED OF GOD, A PRO__PHET Not GOD
peace to all who are righteously guided
__________________
Sura 23:91- GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims.
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Matthew 1:23 NIV
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" [ Isaiah 7:14] —which means, "God with us."
Matthew 14:33 NIV
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Matthew 16:16 NIV
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, [ Or Messiah; also in verse 20] the Son of the living God."
John 3:16 NIV
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 NIV Read this Chapter
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
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God became a man, humbled himself to the limatations of a man, was Jesus omnscient? No, beacuase he took on a body, could Jesus be hurt, yes he died on the cross. Was he a suffering servant as Isaiah 53 tells us, yes. I admit he was fully a man and he was fully God. He is the Son of God, he came to earth as God with us (Immanuel), He is God the Son.
If you don't even agree with his teachings, that was God incarnate, that He is the I AM, that He is the Son of God, how can you call him a prophet and a Good man?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
i think that the point is clear :)
John 5:16-30
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
I haven't decided yet... But either way I'm a wild girl!
;)
Do Muslims love Jesus?
Mohammed, who, like all arabs, was descended from Abraham through Ishmael - not Isaac and Jacob/Israel. Mohammed was not religious, he was just a believer, who strove himself, and taught the striving, to do God's Will. Mohammed was given the third part of The Bible, known as the Koran (the gospel of unity), in order to enlighten and unite all mankind. The True Koran, which can be found in the King of kings' Bible, is not the Hadith, and is in complete harmony with both the Old and New Covenants/Testaments of The Bible, when correctly interpreted. The Hadith is what the Meccans wrongfully use as a foundation for the moslem/islamic religion, just as the non-Israelite jews wrongfully use the Talmud as the basis for the jewish religion, instead of following the True Torah. Although a true, racial Israelite is more likely to answer the Call to come out of Babylon and fight for God, you should think of every person as a potential ally and give them the same chance to prove themselves (Matt. 12:30, Luke 11:23, John 8:30/King of kings' Bible) through their works.
greenburke, I have a question. The way I understand it, is that God transformed himself into man, to be able to meet us. Since God, by himself being a god, cannot meet with man, unless through a mediator. Man cannot see him since he's God, and cannot interact with him, therefore God has to transform himself into man. Now I can understand that, it makes sense.
But why is it said that Jesus is the son of God. Not God. But the SON of God. This makes it kind of unclear. And then, I think of when Jesus yells out on the cross : God, why have you forsaken me. I mean if he is God transformed into man, then how is he saying that. That is a bit blurry to me, hope u can explain that to me. :)
Ah, I was thinking about it for a moment, and now I understand completely. It will take some time to think it through so don't get frustrated if you really want to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_182_88
Do you mind if I give it a whirl, dark?
The easiest way to think of it is in the form of a circle. That's right, a nice big circle on a piece of paper.
So, draw a circle on a paper. That whole circle represents God, and God equals the Trinity, so that whole circle is also known as the Trinity
(Trinity = God).
Now, make a legend. Within the legend box, draw a small circle with an equals sign next to it, like this:
O = God (Trinity)
That's what it should look like.
Moving on...
The whole circle, the Trinity (God), has 3 equal parts. Therefore, each part would take up 33 1/3% of the circular area. No mathematics is involved; just go ahead and divide the whole circle (God = Trinity) into 3 pieces.
Okay...
Label each piece with an individual number, starting at 1 for the first part and ending at 3 for the last.
In the legend, continue by further defining those numbers. When done, your legend should read as follows:
O (not a zero, a circle) = God (Trinity)
1 = The Holy Spirit
2= The Father
3 = The Son
(It doesn't matter which number is which)
What does that tell you?
It says that the Trinity has 3 parts. They are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
And what do all 3 parts form when united together as ONE?
The 3 parts form the Trinity, all 3 parts in unity, which is GOD.
The whole circle is the Trinity, right? Yes.
So, as you can see from the circle diagram:
The Holy Spirit is a part OF the Trinity.
The Father is a part OF the Trinity.
The Son is a part OF The Trinity.
Because the Trinity (the whole circle) is another term for God, each part OF the Trinity is a part OF God.
The Father OF God (the whole circle). The Son OF God (the whole circle). The Holy Spirit OF God (whole circle). (Or, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.)
W00t! :brow:
When someone says "God the Father", they do not means God's daddy. They mean that the Father is a part of what we refer to as "God", that whole circle!
Ask yourself, what is God? God is purely a socially-constructed term to describe what is actually all 3 parts of the circle (Trinity) in unity. That whole circle, once again, is the Trinity/ God (because God is all 3 parts of the circle in unity, or the whole circle which is the Trinity according to the Bible, right? Yes.).
That is all! Those 3 beautiful and extraordinary pieces in unity are what people praise! God.
Jesus Christ who was the Father manifested in the flesh, the Holy Spirit, and the Father (the supernatural force)! All together, they are what we refer to as God in all its splendor and magnificence.
Ah, yeah! Make sense now?
Okay, now that you understand what God is, let's talk about each individual part of the Trinity (the whole circle).
The Father
The Father is usually confused with God because people don't understand the aforementioned where I explained to you how to understand the Trinity. So, they use the word God many times where they could easily say the Father. But, saying God is just equally acceptable and right because God encompasses everything, all 3 parts, including the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Right? Right!
The Father is the supernatural force that created all of its existence. Do not try and apply a skin, human face, or mortal qualities to the Father because "He" is not human, nor a he. It defies all human comprehension, and it is because of that very reason that the Father, the supernatural force, sent Jesus Christ, the Son of God (not God's son but "Son of God" as in that part OF the circle- that part OF God- that part OF the Trinity), to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth to be conceived by Mary by Immaculate Conception.
As someone stated before, we cannot see the Father because we are simply not worthy. It is too powerful and too beautiful for our eyes to see. The Father (that incomprehensible supernatural force that created all) knew this (it is omnipotent and omniscient) so it had Mary begat Jesus who was the manifestation of the Father in the human flesh, or the Son of God. Then, and only then, could we know of the Father by way of his son Jesus Christ, the MESSIAH. The Father sent Jesus to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth to preach the Father's word, but more importantly, Jesus was sent here to die for our sins on the cross to render us our salvation for eternity as long as we accepted him as our savior.
The Son
He, Jesus Christ, is none other than the Father (same thing as the Father (force) of God) manifested in the flesh so we could know Him, Jesus. The belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior gives us salvation and eternal bliss in the Kingdom of Heaven by our God. We achieve salvation by God through the Son of God.
In order to answer your question:
It's rather easy. When the Father manifested Jesus in the flesh, Jesus was stripped of his "Godhood" by the Father because it was necessary for Jesus to set an example for the rest of humanity without having the nobility of a God bestowed upon him. You see, if we humans saw Jesus as the God, we would never have believed that we could follow in his footsteps. After all, we would have thought, "I can't refrain from sin like YOU Jesus, you are a GOD!" Because he was stripped of his "Godhood", the people saw Jesus Christ as mere human flesh just like you and I. Jesus faced all the sins we faced today and he never gave in. He wanted to lead by example to show us that, if he could do it, we could do it too!Quote:
God, why have you forsaken me.
Jesus had faith in the Father. Absolute faith. When nails were placed into the joints of his wrists and his feet, and another through his genitals (more than likely to seat his pelvis against the crucifix), it was the mortal flesh that made Jesus cry unto the Father and ask why God the Father had forsaken him. You nor I can ever imagine the pain Jesus Christ suffered that day when he was crucified. You must understand that, while Jesus had absolute faith in the Father, he was human, just like you and I. It was simply natural after enduring all that pain for him to request the Father to take him away from the pain.
You understand now, dark?
the Holy Spirit
Simply think of the Holy Spirit as a part of the Father, the supernatural force, that is bestowed within the body of a true believer of God. In John, the gift of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to eternal life, knowledge of God (Trinity), power to obey, and communion with one another (believer) and with the Father. When you receive God into your life, you receive the Holy Spirit from the Father which helps guide you through life. It's a part of the Father's supernatural force. Easy huh?
What better way to communion with the Father than the Father granting you a part of itself...a part of that force that comprises the Father. Through the Holy Spirit, we know the Father and subsequently "God" becuase God encompasses the Father.
Thank you Diadem for this wonderful explanation :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
mohammed (peace be upon him) is one of greatest prophets ,
Muhammad (pbuh) was an illiterate but wise and well-respected man who was born in Makkah in the year 570 C.E., at a time when Christianity was not yet fully established in Europe. His first years were marked by the deaths of his parents. Since his father died before his birth, his uncle, Abu Talib, from the respected tribe of Quraysh, raised him. As Muhammad (pbuh) grew up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes. His reputation and personal qualities also led to his marriage, at the age of twenty-five, to Khadijah, a widow whom he had assisted in business. Thenceforth, he became an important and trusted citizen of Makkah. Historians describe him as calm and meditative.
Muhammad (pbuh) never felt fully content to be part of a society whose values he considered to be devoid of true religious significance. It became his habit to retreat from time to time to the cave of Hira', to meditate near the summit of Jabal al-Nur, the "Mountain of Light", near Makkah.
At the age of 40, while engaged in one such meditative retreat, Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for twenty-three years, is known as the Qur'an, the faithful recording of the entire revelation of God. The first revelation read:
"Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from a clot (of blood). Recite: Your Lord is Most Noble, Who taught by the pen, taught man what he did not know." [96:1-5]
It was this reality that he gradually and steadily came to learn and believe, until he fully realized that it is the truth.
His first convert was Khadijah, whose support and companionship provided necessary reassurance and strength. He also won the support of some of his relatives and friends. Three basic themes of the early message were the majesty of the one, unique God, the futility of idol worship, the threat of judgment, and the necessity of faith, compassion and morality in human affairs. All these themes represented an attack on the crass materialism and idolatry prevalent in Makkah at the time. So when he began to proclaim the message to others the Makkans rejected him. He and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution, which grew so fierce that in the year 622 C.E., God gave them the command to emigrate. This event, the Hijrah (migration), in which they left Makkah for the city of Madinah, some 260 miles to the north, marked the beginning of a new era and thus the beginning of the Muslim calendar. During his suffering, Muhammad (pbuh) drew comfort from the knowledge revealed to him about other prophets, such as Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, each of whom had also been persecuted and tested.
After several years and some significant battles, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to Makkah, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam definitively. By the time the Prophet died, at the age of 63, the greater part of Arabia had accepted Islam, and within a century of his death, Islam had spread as far west as Spain and as far east as China. It was clear that the message was not limited to Arabs; it was for the whole of humanity.
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The Prophet's sayings (Hadith), are revelation. The number of sayings collected by his followers and scholars is close to 10,000 in total. Some typical examples of his sayings are as follows:
"To pursue knowledge is obligatory on every believing (man and woman)." [Ibn Majah]
"Removing a harmful thing from the road is charity." [Bukhari, Muslim]
"Those who do not show tenderness and love cannot expect to have tenderness shown to them." [Bukhari]
"Adore Allah (God) as though you see Him; even if you do not see Him, He nonetheless sees you." [Bukhari, Muslim]
Although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God's final messenger, he is not an object of worship.
regards
lover of jesus, is there anywhere in the Hadeeth that blatantly advocates violence against non-Muslims? Is there another source of scripture from God that Muslims may use other than the Hadeeth?
Regards,
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
the really God should nt has many parts ,one is smaller than other parts ...
or weaker
also:
God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
ofcource no, all muslims know that killing an innocent soul is abig sin ,
we are not allowed to kill any non-muslims expect the soldiers who invade our country to protect our selves this is in islam
if you mean 9-11 , be sure that islam is the first one who rejacts these things
no one has the right to end the lives of other
prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) had non- muslim neighbor he allways tried to invite him to islam by talking not by killing
regards
Disclaimer: I understand that you're Muslim, and I respect that, so I just wanted to let you know before I dissect your points. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
Trinity: There is only one God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three eternal and coequal "Persons" (I call them "parts" for clarity), the same in substance but distinct in subsistence: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You are correct. When the Father manifested Jesus Christ in the flesh, Jesus did not have godly powers.Quote:
God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not.
No, you're not looking at all the integral points. You must ask yourself:Quote:
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..."
(John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority.
That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
Why was Jesus Christ on Earth in the first place?
What was his purpose?
Adam caused man to fall from grace by his sin during his dominion on Earth. Jesus was sent to Earth and conceived by Mary, and afterwards his purpose was to render salvation to humanity by sacrificing himself on the cross for the sins of God's creations (man).
1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Correct. There is only one God since Christianity is a monotheistic religion. Therefore, God would not have a God. There is only one God, but God has three invidual parts that each represent God itself.Quote:
God does not have a God...
Jesus Christ himself was God. The Father was God as well. Not A God, but THE God. Understand now?Quote:
but Jesus did have a God.
It is evident by the following scripture:
(Paul the Apostle speaks to Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 1:8
Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by annointing you with the oil of joy.
What does that mean?
Simply put, each individual part of the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was God. In that scripture, it says "your God" which is referring to the Father. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh.
Correct.Quote:
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others.
Yes, refer back to Hebrews 1:8. Jesus Christ is God. The Father is God. That is why he said, "...unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." Why? Well, because the Father is God, and so is Jesus Christ.Quote:
But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17)
Father = God
Jesus Christ (Son) = God
Holy Spirit = God
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = God
It's hard for the humam mind to comprehend. Jesus (the Father manifested in the flesh) was calling unto the Father and asking why he has forsaken him. And, of course, referring to John 20:17, the Father is God. Right? Yes.Quote:
He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense?
No, it says "my Father". Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was, as evident by the scripture, talking to the Father.Quote:
When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself?
Clearly, as evident by Hebrews, he is God. :nod:Quote:
That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
Every part of the Trinity is God, and God is the Trinity as a whole.
Confusing, somewhat. Hopefully, I make it easy to understand further up in the thread.
Thank you for your response. It is much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
As we all know, God's word is sometimes interpreted incorrectly. I am curious and I hope you will assist me in understanding this: Would you be able to speculate what scriptures some Islamic radicals are using in order to justify their killing of innocent civilians?
I am not referring to 9/11. I actually believe the American government was responsible for that. I was actually watching a documentary on television last night, and it had an interview with an Islamic radical being held in an Israeli prison. He was quite certain in his religious view that Jews had to be killed and he would be hailed as a martyr by doing so and 72 virgins would await him in Paradise upon his arrival.
Do you know why they believe that? I'd like to understand their perspective and how they arrive at that conclusion.
Regards
If is true that jesus is apart of one G OD , WHY this God send one of his part to Hill , is it logical to send him to hill inorder to purify the people from sins and to forgive their sins
Really God could do that without harm himselfe
There are many part of bible has mentioned about jesus as prophet ,ihave mentioned many of them
And also about muhammed as prophet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
as you said he is radical, and prophet muhammed warns us from that
the really martyr is the one who died for his country ,family,or religion sake
Actually, no he could not have done it any other way; it is perfectly logical. Humans cannot bear to witness God the Father.Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
Therefore, the Father manifested Jesus Christ (Son of God/ God) in human flesh so we may come to know the Father, but more importantly because there needed to be a blood atonement in order to purify us of our sins. Jesus Christ was that sacrifice whom died on the cross for our sins.
Yes, any many scriptures specifically state that Jesus Christ is God. I provided the Hebrews 1:8 scipture, for example.Quote:
There are many part of bible has mentioned about jesus as prophet ,ihave mentioned many of them
And also about muhammed as prophet
Yes, I am aware of that my brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by lover of jesus
But, are you familiar with what scripture of the Koran they may be reading in order to justify the killing of innocent people?
They must be using something within the Koran or Hadeeth. Do you know what it might be? :confused:
(I do not judge them for killing. That is God's decision.)
Thank you :nod:
I know some scriptures that are often manipulated in both christianity and Islam to justify killing. Its the Koranic equivelant of an eye for an eye. I dont rember all of it but it goes "the forbbiden month for a forbidden month" and then somthing like a person for a person defending your homes and families are your right . then somthing like and let it be known God loves not vengence seekers and blood fudes
somthing like that.
I think the real differance between muslims and christians is not the view of mohmmed although there is the acceptence as him as the final messenger from God, equal to any and all of the previous. No I think the differance has to be in THe way we view Jesus Christ.
Although I really dont understand what your saying Diadem is it that God in his infinate wisdom create a humn body (jesus) from himself and sent him to earth as a human?
:confused:
I belive Jesus was a mircal a symbol of Gods greatness and power but after that he was a man just a human man but also a holy prophet and messneger like abraham noah moses or mohmmed.
But in other ways I belive he was more special because for instance I dont believ he was ever crucified. I believe God allowed him to assend to heaven without dieing which is one of the reasons hes going to return to earth before the end of the world not only to unify the belivers of all creeds but to die as well.
(Im going to say sorry for my spelling now becasue its appalling but I cant help it :nod: )
:D
I understand. I was under the impression that it was that scripture involving "eye for an eye". Many people misinterpret that scripture more than any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
You're right.Quote:
I think the real differance between muslims and christians is not the view of mohmmed although there is the acceptence as him as the final messenger from God, equal to any and all of the previous. No I think the differance has to be in THe way we view Jesus Christ.
The Father did not send his Son (Jesus Christ) as a grown human being. He sent the Holy Spirit into Mary and she had an immaculate conception thus giving birth to Jesus Christ. A miracle, in other words. She gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God, who was the Father manifested in the flesh.Quote:
Although I really dont understand what your saying Diadem is it that God in his infinate wisdom create a humn body (jesus) from himself and sent him to earth as a human?
There is are several reasons why God had to appear in human form:
1. There needed to be a human sacrifice on the cross in order to render salavtion to humanity for its sins. The Father sacrificed his only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins.
2. We cannot see the Father in order to know him. That is why he sent the Holy Spirit into Mary so she could give birth to His Son manifested in human flesh that other humans could bear witness to.
Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
3. The Father could not provide an example for the rest of humanity to abide by had Jesus not been manifested in human flesh and blood, just like everybody else. Had he still had the powers of God as a human, none of his followers would have chose to follow his example because he was a God. It would have been impossible to resist sin like a God. As a human flesh and blood like you and I, it was then possible to emulate Jesus Christ and his resistance of temptation and sin.
-He was a miracle. He was immaculately conceived by Mary.Quote:
I belive Jesus was a mircal a symbol of Gods greatness and power but after that he was a man just a human man but also a holy prophet and messneger like abraham noah moses or mohmmed.
-He was just a human man. Flesh and blood. No godly powers.
-He was a prophet, messenger, and the Messiah.
-He was greater than Abraham, Moses and Mohammed. He was God.
He had to die on the cross. Because of Adam's sin, man fell from grace. An atonement of blood was needed to render our salvation for eternity and Jesus Christ was that sacrifice to die for our sins.Quote:
But in other ways I belive he was more special because for instance I dont believ he was ever crucified. I believe God allowed him to assend to heaven without dieing which is one of the reasons hes going to return to earth before the end of the world not only to unify the belivers of all creeds but to die as well.
It's all good.Quote:
(Im going to say sorry for my spelling now becasue its appalling but I cant help it :nod: )
Diadem I think we had better agree to respectfully disagree
:D
when we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)
, then how come the Qur’an says, (kill them wherever you find them…) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa’ 4: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:
(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190-194)
also read the full text:
(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.) (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)
Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diadem
so the God in Hill whearas the slaves in paradise ???