Etymology: German, from Welt world + Anschauung view
: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint
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Etymology: German, from Welt world + Anschauung view
: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint
Thanks for defining it for me I do appreciate that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical
My instincts are so good that I knew before a doctor did that my sister was going to end up a amputee. That means I look beyond the obvious because that is where most people fear to look. I do not mean to sound arrogant here but knowing something about someone you love makes you a freak of nature no one can relate to. I knew without a doubt she would lose it and there are things I still know without a doubt without seeing them until they come true. You tell me sir how is it possible for me know something before seeing, hearing, or experiencing it? I surly cannot and it happens to me and I am sane.Quote:
quoted by sir"Women have a wonderful instinct about things. They can discover everything except the obvious." - oscar wilde
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestor
yup,u r right...i'm 2 young and i have so much 2 learn about...stuff...but believe me,i'm also 2 old 2 go round in circles with someone who "knows something before seeing, hearing, or experiencing it"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestor
Satirical,how can i like berkeley and any idealist if i like thinkers such as russell?
Do you have a sense of humor? You seem well read, did you pay attention?
...u r so exquisitely witty :goof: ... your humor is so subtle ...i better step back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical
Now I shouldn't step into someone else's discussion (but since when I do things I should do) but I really see no point in arguing cos noone is really trying to convince anyone, but of course noone will understand the other's point completely. I also sort of feel uncomfortable about believers always going on about how good it is to believe and implying between lines (and I think that they don't always realise it) that we are missing something, but that's also part of my present feeling of total refuse of anything that has to do with any kind of religious believe... So I probably also sound 'arrogant' at times cos we unbelievers also have that kind of way... But that doesnt mean that we are trying to convince each other cos we all (should) know that it's impossible, even if there are people who still try (that is, my grandmother...).
As are you, we step back together.
I heard it was the soma
Then heard it was the soul
St. Paul was driving lonely home
But forgot to pay the toll
Greekarious son Plotinus
Help him lay down the funds
It emminated from his pocket
Or from Spinoza's ONE
Matters not says Augustine
The Roman's made of better things
Forget the tale the lot of ya
While we take out Apocrapha
hello everyone,
this is my 1st visit here to the forum, it was coz of that topic(& what a topic!!!). I'm a Muslim girl (but not a terrorist ;) ) & i got a dear friend who is atheist. i got no problem with that except for a few points..
i once asked him ,don't u ever ever feel u might b on the wrong side?!! what if it turned out that ur "theory" about the world was wrong? u'd b the only one who pays 4 it..& that hurts, big time!
secondly, that friend is one of the most depressive nihilistic persons i've ever known in my whole life..is everyone,atheist one, feels the same? if so, then there must b sth wrong, definitely..
well, i didn't mean t b intruding or not friendly at all, these were just my ideas n "wonders" about the topic, so wut d u think?
Excuse me but... and do you ever wonder if it is your side that's wrong? I'm not meaning to provoke but this question came to me so naturally while reading yours... I'd really quote the Bible now (well I still got a religious education before I had my freedom to choose...which culturally I dont regret) when it says that people should look for the big wood in their eye (or wherever it was) rather than to the tiny one in someone else's eyes... (sorry my translation of it might be poor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac_R
Sure, if you are wrong that might not hurt at all, but still... you asked that to him, did he ask the same to you? or did you ask yourself?
As for the rest, I think I am a nihilist too yeah, and I was depressed for a while. And when I started to feel nihlistic and depressed and all, that's when going to the church became harder and harder until I stopped and became shuly agnostic, and now I feel more convinced than ever of my ideas...I sort of feel good in it cos for me it's much better than believing in other things.
Nice repartee!Quote:
Excuse me but... and do you ever wonder if it is your side that's wrong? I'm not meaning to provoke but this question came to me so naturally while reading yours...
ok, my answer is: No! i've never thought that i might b wrong.not out of pride, but out of deep faith. so the question will b modified to "r u dead sure that u r 100% right as i am?!! is ur faith in wut u believe, wutsoever it is, that firm and deep that it could never ever b shaken?" i'm saying that coz i've always got that feeling that that friend has never been so sure, always hesitant, and when it comes to questions like "then who created that universe and what is it that makes u try hard to do the good thing (like having good morals n doing ur best), his reply makes me astonished when he says : well, i don care whether there was really a creator 4 that universe or not, n i'm doing what i do just 4 the hell of it coz i just believe in concepts!"
that really drives me up the wall..so i always think, there must b sth wrong..
I once read a beautiful and wise analogy relating to the perception and "knowing" of reality, what seems just, and the idea of a Supreme Being.
An elephant rest on the ground, and multiple blind people arrived to identify the large creature; one felt its belly and thought it large, rough, and thick; another touched its ear and thought it flat, smooth, and wide; another touched its tusk and that it round, narrow, and long.
As in Immanuel Kant's concept (in his Critique Of Pure Reason), literally "knowing" everything of the transcendent seems impossible for a human's finite mind. In my opinion, we, as individuals, only perceive the smallest of fragments of any kind of objective reality, yet none of those fragments seems irrelevant; the elephant's tusk seems just as attached to the elephant as its ear and belly.
Calling one religion or spiritual belief superior or inferior to another communicates only that either all of us seem collectively correct, or all of us seem entirely wrong.
I believe Hume said something along the lines of, if this religion is right then all others are wrong. Of course he was writing about miracles. Still....
Ok...so I guess that that's the difference between faith, as in religious faith, and not being faithful... And faith is just something I don't understand, because I don't have it (pretty much as I don't understand love cos I don't have it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac_R
I only think that you should accept that your friend does things just for the sake of them, because as I said before faith is only something you can feel, and if you don't feel it then you don't, end of story - and your life can be somehow complete anyway, even with your own views which may be painful and not as hopeful as a believer's ones... but they are ours, and I just prefer to have my pessimist nihilist ideas, because they are mine and came from my experience, rather than pretend to have faith and spend one hour every week in the church wondering why I'm there.
being on the right side / being on the wrong side ...jeeeeezuz krist!!!!!!!
think! think! think!!!!!!!!!!
for ****'s sake!!! "god" is just a concept,undemonstrable,utterly subjective,a postulate created by human's ancestral fears,anguishes,loneliness and cultivated through terror,lie,superstition and by our species' innermost conflict itself:awareness of death!
if one is honest with oneself,one knows one comes from nowhere and soon will go back to nowhere...lucidity is the greatest humiliation the human being must endure...a great deal of it can lead to suicide or to the edge of it.
thus ,depending on our level of lucidity,our character,education,etc.,we are chosen (we never chose) by a specific religion,doctrine,philosophy,weltanschauung...ther e's no escape,even the anarchy,the atheism,the agnosticism,etc. can b included within the large meaning of "doctrine".
therefore,talking about "the right side" or "the wrong side" in such a delicate matter shows how shallow one's thinking is...
is not wrong to believe in god and is not wrong to be atheist...these are metaphysic needs based on unstable postulates either:
-the order in the universe is not necesarely a sign that some god created it.
-the unjustice and misery in the world is not enough proof against the existence of a superior entity.
even though i am more scared of the people with a firm belief...the inquisitors were 100% sure they were right and those who didn't believe in their god deserved to dye, the muslim kamikazes are 100% sure they are right and if u don't believe what they believe they have the right to kill u.
a man who doubts would never kill or give his life on behalf of an idea .
believe in god if u r confortable with that,don't question on what u believe in if u can't or don't want to,but please,respect your interlocutor's inteligence by not coming forth with sophisms or kindergarden statements in metaphisic debates.
I AM honest with myself, and i know very well i came from somewhere.Quote:
if one is honest with oneself,one knows one comes from nowhere and soon will go back to nowhere
Can anyone live with those two ideas at the same time?Can anyone bring two extremes togther n say i'm ok with that? well, if so, then u r a super-human being!Quote:
-the order in the universe is not necesarely a sign that some god created it.
-the unjustice and misery in the world is not enough proof against the existence of a superior entity.
well, i guess u haven't read wut i wrote carefully.. i said i got an atheist friend, a dear one, & fortunately i haven't killed him yet! (mayb i'll do it in the future, not coz he's not a muslim, but coz his bad temper always drives me crazy!) Plz, Sir, i wish u read more about Islam, there is no killing there, if one doesn't wanna b a muslim, then it's absolutely ok with us, no problem at all, i won't hang them 4 not believing in the same thing i believe in, coz as Koa said, belief is sth inside u n u cannot pretend to have it unless u really do, nor anyone can ever compell u to adhere to sth u don really believe in.Quote:
even though i am more scared of the people with a firm belief...the inquisitors were 100% sure they were right and those who didn't believe in their god deserved to dye, the muslim kamikazes are 100% sure they are right and if u don't believe what they believe they have the right to kill u.
a man who doubts would never kill or give his life on behalf of an idea .
Koa said:
I agree on and respect this.but at the same time i just wonder if one might undergo any feeling of "lack" or "incompleteness" towards one's own life(it does happen when one is a believer too but mayb in a different sense(?!))That friend told me more than once that he feels his life is wasted, being pointless..and this hurts a lot n it even sometimes makes one not very productive..does this apply to all nonbelievers?or it's just a trait?Quote:
I just prefer to have my pessimist nihilist ideas, because they are mine and came from my experience, rather than pretend to have faith and spend one hour every week in the church wondering why I'm there.
my last post in this thread ... related 2 nothing and nobody,just so,for the record...
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein
-------------------
"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
amen!
Well ok.. was just going to say, please, discuss ideas, not the posters who have expressed said ideas :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sir
I do not feel you sound arrogant to me you sound like you are a happy person who just happens to not believe in a higher being. People tend to lump everyone who has the same faith as believing the same when in fact we do not. You are right you should be free to be a atheist without anyone saying, 'hey aren't you worried about your soul.' Your Grandmother sounds like mine and because even though we are both Spiritualist I do not practice our faith correctly but I still love her. Even though small strokes have affected her mind I let her say and let it go. I enjoy listening to all of you who believe or not believe. I was depressed before I found faith it is interesting to find someone opposite of me and anyway we can get out of a depression is a good way in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa
This is such a fascinating example of narrow mindness that I have ever seen and I do apologize for my rude behavior but you sir do not understand what faith truly is. I am intelligent and I no longer fear and how come you imply people with faith are inferior to you. Is that not a God complex your words imply that you are suffering from. I have no problem with someone being atheist but I also feel that a atheist is as smart as I am and just as happy being a atheist as I am at being a Spiritualist. I once again apologize for my rude behavior and if I misunderstood your words sir then please try to make yourself appear less hostile. By the way I did chose my faith because I do not like anyone choosing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by sir
Atheists don't believe in a concept of religion and God. For them, God is only for something people cannot explain. That's the common idea of Atheists. And Using scientific explainations such as "Evolution Theory of Darvin" is more logical than saying : "My God created this, that, these, those or etc etc..."
Being born and dying is only biological events and have no divine meaning for them. People are born and die. That's all...Simple...Heaven, hell, satan etc. are something they don't believe in.
PS: I am an Atheist but i have no intention to attack the other people's opinions and beliefs. I just wanted to say my opinion about Atheism... Best Regards...
You showed respect and I hope that my words did not offend you also. Thanks for sharing your opinion and I hope we can hear more from you. I do apologize though for my attitude towards sir but I felt like he stepped upon my beliefs without any respect. I am a person whom is happy with her own skin and wish people would accept that about each other. We all live with something or without something but if we are truly happy then what is so wrong about that? Not a thing in my book. Loki's signature proudly states that he is atheist. I like Loki he is one of many who people brighten up this forum. But when someone comes off insulting I do act out and that is not a excuse for my behavior. For all atheist or not whom may have been offended by my last few posts I do apologize. I shall try to maintain my proper etiquette from now on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuana
Technically you're presuming religion has to do with god, which it doesn't. It has to do with worship, dogma, ritual, belief in a concept of great importance. Atheists can have religions, just like theists can. Atheism and theism are two spectrums of a metaphysical hierarchy. Atheists are theists are at the top, then connected to them are their respective religions which certain atheists and theists partake in, below that are the common philosophical concepts, below that political, and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuana
Universism (an odd offshoot that sounds too much like UU), certain sects of Buddhism, Unitarian Universalist, LaVeyian Satanism, Humanism, etc are all "atheist" religions. They hold no belief in gods and still follow a dogma of a sort to make their lives better suited to hold meaning for them. Some of these religions include theists as well, but generally speaking they don't require deities to be believed in.
Just thought you might like to know.
Wow, this just sums up so perfectly my theory about life... I think that the only people who can be happy are those who haven't seen the truth, that is the meaningless of life and many other things... And when, 6 years ago, I found out all this, my lucidity was really taking me down and down...Quote:
Originally Posted by sir
I actually agree on this... I don't know if the muslim kamikazes are following religious ideas or just political ideas, but they are way too convinced about them... And many people who believe in a god just try to convince the others... I think doubting can be healthy at times...Quote:
Originally Posted by sir
That's what I was trying to say... I do feel like that, all the time... useless - but that's not because I think that life has no meaning...well if I also think about it it does add to it, but with what I said and you quoted I wanted to say this... that I dont fee like I lack something cos I have no faith, because I feel that what I think is ok, it's right for me to think that... I can't really explain maybe but I dont feel poorer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac R
Oh then I should sound more depressed... ;) I'm not happy, I don't think happiness really exists, I prefer to call it 'joy' cos I think it can't last long...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestor
Ok, lately I don't feel depressed most of them, I just feel ok and enjoy some things... so if happiness is just the lack of pain, then maybe I'm generally happy these days.
Does life have meaning only when one gives it meaning? By telling ourselves that life is not going to get any better we make it come true ourselves? I can tell myself that my life is going nowhere and in the end I turn out to be right. Dwelling on anything good or bad does not help just get up and do it. Make your life have meaning through any number of things. I won't be go back into my darken world where I did not care about anyone especially myself. Then it would truly be a empty lonly and pathetic life which would be no ones fault but my own. I have only seen a few people here who break to stereotype mold of atheists. I do not know about you but I am tired of people stereotyping and placing me in bounderies. Bounderies bound me in one place for far too long in my life and would rather live life to the fullist no matter what. You make your life what it is instead just take as it comes. I may not know my purpose but who is to say I am not living today. I took care of my dying Grandfather and I was there when he took his last breath. It made me proud to be there for that because he always smiled every day of his life which brightened mine. His own Mother bragged about how many times she tried to bring on a abortion while she carried him. She threw herself downs stairs to have a miscarry but he survived to be born and his presence in the world was brighter for it at least to me. If we humans were meant to live in a world of nothingness then we would not have people whom we love with all our being. :)
Just because the world has no purpose and our lives no ultimate meaning doesn't mean we cannot continue to live with our own sense of purpose. Nothingness awaits us in death, which is why we enjoy or experience life as best we can while we're here. For me, life is neither good nor bad, it just is. It's better than death so I do not dwell on it. I focus on the bad and the good in any case, because I can't avoid it, but don't expect anything grand from either.
Life has a purpose: To live. If you add anything else to it, you're stretching it for more than it can be, personally speaking.
Why cannot life have both purpose and nothingness? Why do we think so one dimential when the world is not? Otherwise why have life at all if there is no purpose, no meaning, and nothing awaits us after death? Life is never just one single thing I have had patches of nothingness along patches filled with purpose. I do not think a few words can truly describe life but that life is a ongoing learning process and I for one will enjoy as much as I can.
I didn't say we can't have both. I said life after death is nothingness and life as it is has no ultimate purpose, but its purpose is decided by those living it. Why live when nothing awaits you anyway? Because it beats being dead. You got one shot at this world, so use it however you want. Be happy, be sad, be whatever. Have a purpose or don't, it might help you it might not. Life is just here to be lived, make it what you want, but it won't matter in the long run from a individual aspect.
I did not mean to imply that you did not say we could not have both. I do believe that only our physical bodies die and that our spirit lives on afterwards. The nothingness that awaits when we die is a depressing thought to me at least. Plus since I am able to feel spiritual energy that does persuades me to believe that way. But each to his or her own I guess. ;)
To say with all the conviction in the world, that there is nothing on the other side, to say that there is even another side, or not, is just as fallacious as any religion. Nothing is something in virtue of it being nothing.
This reminds me of Plato alegory of cave. In a way, people who considered them selves enlightened and already found the truth, have this mental obligation to spread the words and convince them to follow the same steps. In Islam and Christianity, that obligation is obviously stated. Further, there are heavenly rewards waiting for "all out" believers. That's why death is a popular option in expressing the faith.Quote:
Posted by Koa: I don't know if the muslim kamikazes are following religious ideas or just political ideas, but they are way too convinced about them... And many people who believe in a god just try to convince the others... I think doubting can be healthy at times...
Sometimes I think philosophy is somewhat similiar with religious teachings and philosophers are acting like preachers, spreading the ideas of truth. The difference is we are free to doubt and, as you said Koa, that can keep us healty at times.
Prove it to me and may change my point of view. Beside you make it sound so bleak and empty when for me it is not. I know there is another kind of life other than a physical one. Why limit us to one type of life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical
I think we cannot prove something and there is nothing to do except arguing about religion or God :) We cannot prove it just like we cannot prove being of God. It is %50 possibility and people can believe in either of them. There is no proof. And if there is a %50 possibility, to believe or not to believe are both logical (i think) :nod:
Best Regards...
Currently, I do not hold much belief about the existence of the God(s), supernatural and whatnot. I probably will hold this concept to my death. What is much more important than disbelieving such things, is to be unwilling to serve. By this...I mean, I would not willing give my loyalty - my faith, to them. If I were to die, and find that they do indeed exist, I would not surrender my independence to them.
Why is that important? Well, I did not trust them in the first place - I would have to accept the consequences of my lack of faith. To stand by it in fact. This does not mean I hate the Gods, though I can dislike them. I more or less see them as powerful, flawed people.
Then how can either one of us be right if we cannot prove or disprove the existance of God or even life after death? Point we believe what we wish to believe and for me I have my own proof but I could not prove it to you nor should I. That would be stepping upon your toes and that is not proper for me to do. I do not think you will have consequences after death for not believing in any type of God or idol. Unless you committ murder before you die then that is a different story. Belief for me is giving to power for growth of one's self and even in a higher being or not. I do want to thank you all for the insight and I am learning more each time I visit. :)
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.
"Why cannot life have both purpose and nothingness? Why do we think so one dimential when the world is not? Otherwise why have life at all if there is no purpose, no meaning, and nothing awaits us after death? Life is never just one single thing I have had patches of nothingness along patches filled with purpose. I do not think a few words can truly describe life but that life is a ongoing learning process and I for one will enjoy as much as I can." - Ancestor
I'm a little confused as to how you jumped from saying life should ecompass both nothingness and purpose and then rather quickly accuse nothingness for making life pointless. Somehow I feel the idea of living for the sake of living has been lost. Its cropped up a few times, and I was glad to see this view brought forth. For what is wrong with living in a way that makes one happy and content? Nothing, it would be foolish to say there was some great flaw in living in such a manner, providing such a life abided in some sense an ethical and moral code, and followed laws. Who could fault peacefulness and such a contented existence?
Seize the day, live in the moment, live as if it will be your last.
While the last may be a bit dark, the message holds true. Live in the now and don't worry about what might happen later. Be content in the knowledge that you're a good person. Why does it matter if there is nothing after death, it should not change the way life is percieved. Life is a precious state that should be enjoyed and lived as happily as possible, with the thought of what may come after saved till the occassion arises.
After all, these questions will all be answered when we die. :P
I meant that we all have spots in our life where we feel nothingness and there are spots in life where we feel purpose. Nothing is clear in the beginning our journeys and I surely for one have felt both but you are live your life as happy as you can be.
Everything that might be proof of god might equally well be a trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical