I have a friend who has a Russian last name. I asked him once if still has any people back in the old country. He said, "No...Maybe... Probably not. Cossacks ran my people outta there a long time ago. We're Jews."
Anyway, it's a complicated history.
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I have a friend who has a Russian last name. I asked him once if still has any people back in the old country. He said, "No...Maybe... Probably not. Cossacks ran my people outta there a long time ago. We're Jews."
Anyway, it's a complicated history.
heck Sancho, you might have just been referring to your friend's family, but in general itd probably be safe to say that Russia has had the most complicated history of all the places on the planet.
poppin how does the video work? is it the prose scrolling across the screen?
heres a gem from the introduction:
Quote:
for Dostoevsky the "idea" behind the novel he was writing was of paramount significance. if all there was in "crime and punishment" was the story of a murder, it would simply be another detective tale, an early and rather successful forerunner of the modern crime novel. obviously, there is something else in the book which gives it a transcending importance in world literature. for the chief figures of his great novels are often embodied ideas. the struggle of these intellectual heroes for a faith, for a way out of the dilemma of life, usually takes the form of an idea which represents a solution of the characters spiritual existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounty
That's precisely what happens. This way you can increase the size of the font (very important to those with weak eyes like me) and heard what words are written at the same time. There are, however, two drawbacks - the voice is drone like and some of the names are mispronounced. But heck, who's complaining?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
My ancestors had similar experiences.
Over my years online I've come across many Spaniards who enjoy American sports. We exchange ideas and often get personally acquainted in sports chats. I've told them that most of my family line came from Spain and how I wish I could have lived in that fascinating land but that the family had been exiled. When they ask why I use the word "marranos" which literally means "pigs" and was used as an anti Semitic derogation. Instantly, they know my ancestors (most of whom had converted to Christianity) were exiled by the evil Inquisition and by the decree of 1479 which ordered the purging of all Jews and all people who had a trace of Judaism in their bloodline for the past 500 years. Some of them tell how sorry they are that their beautiful land had such a tragic and shameful history.
When I read Don Quixote this last time (with the help of Danik), I came across an essay that speculated that Cervantes came from a family of Conversos, and that the whole story of a wandering knight had a Jewishness or Yiddishness about it:
From the essay — The Secret Jewish History of Don Quixote, by Benjamin IvryQuote:
Still, Jewish readers need no convincing of Don Quixote’s inherent Yiddishkeit, especially with regard to the modern Hebrew translation by the poet Chaim Nachman Bialik (1873-1934). Working from an abridged Russian translation of Cervantes’ masterpiece — Bialik could not read Spanish — he cut the novel by over one-half. In a letter to a friend, Bialik stated: “I read [“Don Quixote”] in Russian when I first came to Odessa as a teenage yeshiva boy, trying to become a poet. I was living in poverty in Odessa, and the book had enthralled me… Dostoyevsky made me weep and Cervantes made me laugh. I alternated between laughing and crying.”
Back to Crime and Punishment. Does anybody know why Dostoevsky blanked out the street names?
By the way, bounty, good musical choice with the Yo-Ho Heave Ho song. How about a little Khachaturian:
https://youtu.be/8ob0nRhSKAw?si=C21bQvZMHvOhvJTP
Saber Dance
“Chacho. When you are a man, sometimes you wear stretchy pants, in your room. Ees for fun.”
— Nacho Libre
Quote:
Sancho,
Why did Dostoyevsky blank out the street names
I understand there were several reasons ~ first this was done to hide anonymity of real life people who may have inspired the creation of certain particular characters. Second, so that street names that did not exist could not be made up and so that no one could say "couldn't happen there as that street doesn't exist".
Let us say that a certain Smithsky existed. That a character names Jonessky was created and his actions based on those of Smithsky. Had the writer included the actual street name and had there been a socialist guild or lyceum on that block, and that Jonessky frequented that establishment, the censors could have accused the real life Smithsky of treason.
Because of this the writer gave realism to the story while retaining anonymity.
At the same time, if the establishment provided humane services in defiance of the Tsar and his puppet administrators, the censors would have come down on him severely. By not providing the street name, Dostoyevsky protected himself.
There may have been other reasons.
Re Cervantes, I recall a segment in which Sancho Panza took special pride in being Cristiano viejo y rancio. This mean that he was of pure Castilian blood which had not been "tainted" by having Jewish ancestry.
Sefardic Jews are very different from Ashkenazim Jews. They do not generally speak Yiddish which has a German base. They speak Ladino which has a Spanish base. It is undoubtedly the easiest language in Europe to understand and to learn. Other Sefardic Jews used a different language called Haketia.
I can see where someone may suggest that Don Quixote may have represented some form of Jewish ideals though of Sefardic, not Ashkenazim origin. He went on a quest to do daily good (called mitzvah), he sought to promote justice, to serve mankind, to reward good (he promised an island to Sancho Panza for his services), he forswore materialist reward for his own good deeds, and he sought to defeat the wickedness of the world.
When I think about it, Don Q is the antithesis of the mythic wandering Jew - a legendary figure who was forced to wander the earth just like Cain for supposedly mocking Jesus at the crucifixion. This person was punished in that he had to continually travel endlessly until the Messiah returned. He would survive in poverty having no particular trade or home and always be dressed in threadbare drags. Unlike Don Q he does not do good deeds and in some incarnations seeks redemption for his past misdeeds.
whenever I watch shows or movies on the computer poppin, even in English, I like having the subtitles on. as far as books, im very thankful my eyesight still allows me to read okay.
having grown up in western ny, and being a sports fan, outside of the music on looney tunes, the (buffalo) sabre dance was probably the first classical music I was exposed to.
im ~halfway through the 2nd chapter and marmeladov is still droning. im impressed with Raskolnikov's patience but I have to say, if Dostoevsky is so keen on human nature, how come when marmeladov mentions his teenage daughter, Raskolnikov doesn't say "um, excuse me, do you have a photo I can see?" I mean, what the heck?
on the 2nd page of the first chapter, when the authors talking about the "special Petersburg stench" he mentions the "insufferable stench from the pot-houses which are particularly numerous in that part of the town..."
I don't know if he's talking about taverns, drugs, or some version of public toilets.
im somewhat instantly reminded of a lot of dickens---life is difficult and bleak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounty
~ subtitles ~
Good idea. It's precisely what I do whether for stories or movies.
~ Western, NY ~
Beautiful part of the country. I bet you played lots of lacrosse in your youth. I played lots of baseball when growing up in Brooklyn but we did not have lax in our part of the world. Never got a chance to play, sad to say. Been a Cuse fan for many moons.
re Sabre ~ I well remember the French Connection Line and hard nose Rick Dudley. All gave it 100% every time they got on the ice sheet.
~ marmeladov ~
Interesting character. IIRC his role was to posit the idea of redemption through confession and repentance. This ultimately would become Raskolnikov's only alternative in return for the evil he committed. As to why he didn't inquire into the daughter's appearance, I believe it was because he was so self absorbed initially. He had a bold task in mind (a truly evil one), was ashamed by his poverty and social status, was so strenuously upset at what he perceived to be the world's injustices against him and others, and was single mindedly preoccupied with his errant thoughts.
~ stench ~
I do believe this was a reference to the "pot houses" (taverns or more correctly, the dives) in town and to the inevitable stench that surrounds these polluted establishments. Sorta like the bars in Philadelphia on January 1 when the Mummers have their parade and get so drunk that the bathrooms get clogged and they wind up p!ssing in the back alley of those buildings. Imagine the smell - check that: don't imagine it!
Mummer's use side of building to relieve their bladders: https://phillydeclaration.files.word...1/dsc_2575.jpg
Yeech!
~ Dickens ~
Exactly the same idea I had. The milieu is so much like that of Dickens though it was probably worse. Brits, like the Irish, who were poor could pack up their belongings and re-settle in the USA, Canada, or Australia. Poor folks in Russia did not quite have the same option. Because of that the many problems continued to exist until it all boiled over. While Dostoyevsky's premise was that the Russian Orthodox church and its doctrines offered solutions to the problems encountered in these tales, history shows that the religion, the church, the god, and the doctrines all represented a god who failed.
I think he does have a keen insight to human nature, bounty. And based on his experience in that Siberian prison, he must’ve seen a side of human nature most of us will only read about (thank god). You know, I keep being pleasantly surprised whenever I try to read one of the great classics of literature. I go into it with a mild sense of trepidation, thinking the ideas will be too high falutin to be any fun to read, but then I get into it and find, on one level anyway, the book is highly readable and very down-to-earth. This one is no exception.
Anyhow, Raskolnikov may not have asked for the daughter’s photo, but I’ll bet he was thinking it. — “Hey, Marm’, got any naked pictures of your wife?”… “No?” … “Wanna see some?” Yuk yuk.
I could almost smell the stink when I got to the part you mentioned, bounty. I think St Petersburg was built on a swamp, so there’d be naturally occurring methane clouds that’re much more potent in warm weather than in cold. (I lived in Louisiana a while back — I myself know about me some swamp gas) I’m not sure what a pot house is, but I sort of assumed it was a communal outhouse. And I’m sure St Petersburg at the time had a state-of-the-art sewer system, ie open ditches that dumped into the ocean. Phew!
I remember several places in Don Quixote where Sancho declares himself an “Old Christian.” His self image is tied up into his identity as a “pure Roman Catholic”. Of course Sancho is not a terribly deep thinker, so he seems to use his religious identity as a way to look down on others. Sadly, not much has changed. — my church is the only right and true church and yours is not, so I’m going to the good place when I die, and too bad for you, ‘cos you’re gonna fry.
I found this passage in part two: The Don and Sanch’ are sitting around the campfire philosophizing. The Don, of course, has his feelings about the righteousness of knight errantry and he equates it to religious faith. He also talks about the evils of vice. Sancho falls back onto his Roman Catholic faith:
Don Quixote:
Sancho:Quote:
All vices, Sancho, bring with them some kind of delight, but envy brings nothing but vexation, rancor, and rage.
Given the speculation that Cervantes may have been a converso, this section takes on a whole new weight.Quote:
I have some guile in me, and a touch of cunning, but all of it is covered and concealed by the great cloak of my simplicity, which is always natural and never sly. And even if I had nothing else, there is my belief, and I’ve always believed, firmly and truly, in God and in everything that is thought and believed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and there is my being, as I am, a mortal enemy of the Jews, and so the historians ought to take pity on me and treat me well in their writings. But let them say whatever they want; naked I was born, I’m naked now: I haven’t lost or gained a thing; as long as I’ve been put in books and passed from hand to hand out in the world, I don’t care what they say about me.
I doubt that Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra was of converso origin because his family would have been persecuted by the Inquisition if it had been "tainted" with Jewish blood within the 500 years before he was born (in 1547). The family would certainly have been exiled if it had been discovered that they were so, just like my family was. The church under the Dominican order was very thorough in ferreting out Judios. Both Cervantes & Saavedra surnames were of Galician origin. Galicia (in the northern part of Spain) was a part of the Asturian-Leonese kingdom for centuries and remained a Christian stronghold even when it was briefly conquered by the Andalucian Moriscos.
Don Quijote's actual name was Alonso Quijano - the name Quijano was also of Galician (and surely of Christian) origin.
We know for a certainty that Sancho Panza was Cristiano viejo y rancio, that is of "pure" Christian Hispanic blood. Quijano does not make such a declaration. In view of all this speculation and history, I wonder why.
often when I tell people where im from, especially international people, I make sure to say "new York state" (or some other qualifier) as opposed to just "new York" because so many people just think of the city.
there are bunches of memes that address that. ive attached one.
I remember the "French connection" well poppin, even though I didn't pay as much attention to hockey compared to the other major sports.
for the most part when I was a kid lacrosse was confined to schools that were on reservation land so we never played it. however the sport has grown in the years since to be pretty ubiquitous across the state.
I finished chapter three last night.
im finding it relatively easy to read too.
I was mostly teasing about Sonia, but had I been Dostoevsky's editor/publisher, I might have said, "hey, put this in!"
but that's an interesting point poppin---Raskolnikov being self-absorbed by his impending act.
one of the things that makes reading enjoyable is caring about the characters---im trying to figure out how knowing ahead of time that Raskolnikov is going to commit murder affects my reading and my view of him. I already don't like him because he's a dead beat tenant.
I noted his mother mentions in her letter "I have noticed more than once in my life that husbands don't quite get on with their mothers-in-law..." its interesting to see that phenomena cross culture and time. I wonder when/where the first mention of it in literature is.
oh, and I loved the phrase nastaya said to raskol early in chapter three when they were talking about his "work" and he was giving excuses---"don't quarrel with your bread and butter."
im also wondering how many copecks in a ruble.
and there has been some word mentioned twice that I didn't recognize---i'll have to go back through slowly later to see if I can find it. pauma pouma pauta something like that...
~ how many copecks in a ruble ~
100 cps = 1 RR
~ for the most part when I was a kid lacrosse was confined to schools that were on reservation land so we never played it. however the sport has grown in the years since to be pretty ubiquitous across the state ~
Wish I could say that was true for NYC. No varsity lax or hockey. So many athletic kids and the financing means to have it but nobody pursues it. Very sad waste of opportunity.
I told myself when I started this book that I’d stick firmly to the Russian pronunciation of the names, and I almost immediately reneged. It’s probably a common thing for an English speaker. Raskolnikov has become Rascal (not such a thing, eh Poppin?). Marmeladov has become Marmaduke.
I suppose Raskolnikov is a bit of a rascal. He’s got nothing but loathing for Alyona Ivanovna, the pawn broker. But he seems to have a huge amount of sympathy for Marmeladov, even to the point of leaving a few coppers on the his sill. The one is an old lady making her way as best she can. The other is a hopeless drunk whose family is living in crushing poverty. Maybe the emotion is not so much sympathy, but rather empathy. Alyona totally destroyed Raskolnikov in the negotiation over his father’s watch and he can only see that transaction from his own perspective, not her’s. By contrast he can empathize somewhat with Marmeladov’s situation.
Marmaduke is probably a less apt nickname. He’s not so much a lovable Great Dane, but he is likable on a personal level. He’s self aware. He just can’t seem to break the cycle of addiction. And his wife did drag him by his hair across the room as though he were a dog.
If I had to pick two personality traits that we westerners associate with prostitutes, I’d say we tend to think they are lazy and stupid. Similarly we tend to think drunks are weak and lazy. And yet in Chapter Two Dostoevsky introduces us to a pure soul, Sonya, a prostitute. She is Sonechka to her father, Marmeladov, and even though he is a drunk, he is a sympathetic character. Sonya’s step mother, Katerina Ivanovna, sort of pushed her into prostitution, and yet even she also is a sympathetic character.
Katerina to Sonya:
Sonya:Quote:
'You live with us,' she says, 'you good-for-nothing, you eat and drink and use up warmth'
Katerina:Quote:
'What, Katerina Ivanovna, must I really go and do such a thing?'
Marmeladov watches what happens later that night:Quote:
'And what,' Katerina Ivanovna answered mockingly, 'what's there to save? Some treasure!'
And:Quote:
I see Sonechka get up, put on her kerchief, put on her wrap, and go out, and she came back home after eight. She came in, went straight to Katerina Ivanovna, and silently laid thirty roubles on the table in front of her. Not a word with it, not even a glance; she just took our big green flannel shawl (we have this one flannel shawl for all of us), covered her head and face with it completely, and lay down on her bed, face to the wall; only her little shoulders and her whole body kept trembling...
This was the point where I knew Dostoevsky had me. He’s a master of his craft.Quote:
I saw Katerina Ivanovna go over to Sonechka's bed, also without saying a word, and for the whole evening she stayed kneeling at her feet, kissing her feet, and would not get up, and then they both fell asleep together, embracing
I even had sympathy for Alyona Ivanovna, the mean old pawn broker. If there’s a truly despicable character in Ch-2, I’d say it’s Ivan Ivanovich, a relatively high-level bureaucrat. Sonya had made him a half dozen shirts but he refused to pay, telling her she’d made the collars wrong. He even chased her away, cursing her. What a Scum-Bag! I really wanted to go all Tony Soprano up on him!
i cant speak to the city poppin, but I know lacrosse is pretty big on the island. if I had to guess, id say city schools in general lack the space/facilities for it.
I usually go in knowing there'll be some names i'll say, some i'll shorten, and some just almost completely gloss over. I toyed with marmeladov as greg marmalade from animal house but the imagery wasn't working, thankfully his names pretty easy.
I think the dramatic tension between Sonia and her stepmother and their desperate straights is an interesting one. but do we think Katerina would be putting her out there "on the streets" so to speak if Sonia were her own biological daughter?
I also wonder if Katerina expecting this of Sonia, seemingly as coldly as she has, is attributable in part to the failures of her father to provide for the family, almost as a form of punishment.
chapter 4 endears raskol a little bit, endears him so more (he plays a white knight really well), but then leaves him all the more wretched in my mind (abandoning his white knight), then chapter 5 kinda decides his fate as he takes one step closer to his murderous aims (that Dostoevsky makes more conclusive through a disturbing, and distressing to read, dream raskol had) and then a chance meeting that sorta seals the deal.
having known for years that the book involved a murder, I always assumed the victim was a man---that its going to be a woman seems to make it and raskol, all the more despicable.
Yeech! I got some catching up to do. Been on the road working this week.
have you been leaving any of your excess books around for bookcrossing?
I have a couple pages left in chapter 6. something in the chapter was strongly suggestive of further securing raskol on his murderous path, but it also got me wondering if we'll ever hear his justifications.
by the way, it'll be fun sometime to pick a key sentence and compare how the two different translations we have render it.
ive included a scanned shot of my cover. I take the character to be Raskolnikov (with a dark heart) but he looks thicker and older and maybe more menacing than I would otherwise imagine him.
Good idea. Surfing around the web I find that people either love or hate the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation. Their translation reads fairly naturally to my ear. Here’s the openings if the first 4 chapters:
Chapter 1
Chapter 2Quote:
At the beginning of July, during an extremely hot spell, towards evening, a young man left the closet he rented from tenants in S------y Lane, walked out to the street, and slowly, as if indecisively, headed for the K------n Bridge.
Chapter 3Quote:
Raskolnikov was not used to crowds and, as has already been mentioned, fled all company, especially of late. But now something suddenly drew him to people. Something new was happening in him, as it were, and with that a certain thirst for people made itself felt. After a whole month of this concentrated anguish, this gloomy excitement of his, he was so tired out that he wished, if only for a moment, to draw a breath in another world, whatever it might be, and, despite all the filthiness of the situation, it was with pleasure that he now went on sitting in the tavern.
Chapter 4Quote:
He woke up late the next day, after a troubled sleep, but sleep had not fortified him. He woke up bilious, irritable, and angry, and looked with hatred at his little room. It was a tiny closet, about six paces long, of a most pathetic appearance, with yellow, dusty wallpaper coming off the walls everywhere, and with such a low ceiling that a man of any height at all felt creepy in it and kept thinking he might bump his head every moment.
No hits yet from Book Crossing. And I’ve flung them far and wide. Somebody may have gotten a good read outta one or two, but nobody’s registered any of them on the web site yet.Quote:
His mother's letter had tormented him. But concerning the main, capital point he had not a moment's doubt, not even while he was reading the letter. The main essence of the matter was decided in his mind and decided finally: “This marriage will not take place as long as I live, and to the devil with Mr. Luzhin!
my constance garnett:
1:2:Quote:
on an exceptionally hot evening early in july a young man came out of the garret in which he lodged in s.place and walked slowly, as though in hesitation, towards k.bridge.
3:Quote:
Raskolnikov was not used to crowds, and, as we said before, he avoided society of every sort, more especially of late. but now all at once he felt a desire to be with other people. something new seemed to be taking place within him, and with it he felt a sort of thirst for company. he was so weary after a whole month of concentrated wretchedness and gloomy excitement that he longed to rest, if only for a moment, in some other world, whatever it might be, and, in spite of the filthiness of the surroundings, he was glad now to stay in the tavern.
4:Quote:
he waked up late next day after a broken sleep, wondering why he did not ask for a photograph of Sonia, but no use crying over spilt milk. but his sleep had not refreshed him; he waked up bilious, irritable, ill-tempered, and looked with hatred at his room. it was a tiny cupboard of a room, a lesser version of which would later appear in harry potter, but of course my author would have no way of knowing that, about six paces in length. it had a poverty-stricken appearance with its dusty yellow paper peeling off the walls, and it was so low-pitched that a man of more than average height was ill at ease in it and felt every moment that he would knock his head against the ceiling.
Quote:
his mother's letter had been a torture to him, but as regards the chief fact in it, he had felt not one moment's hesitation, even whilst he was reading the letter. the essential question was settled, and irrevocably settled, in his mind: "never such a marriage while im a alive and mr luzhin be damned!"
Arhgg! New page. Here's a repost for ease of comparison.
Pevear and Volokhonsky:
Chapter 1
Chapter 2Quote:
At the beginning of July, during an extremely hot spell, towards evening, a young man left the closet he rented from tenants in S------y Lane, walked out to the street, and slowly, as if indecisively, headed for the K------n Bridge.
Chapter 3Quote:
Raskolnikov was not used to crowds and, as has already been mentioned, fled all company, especially of late. But now something suddenly drew him to people. Something new was happening in him, as it were, and with that a certain thirst for people made itself felt. After a whole month of this concentrated anguish, this gloomy excitement of his, he was so tired out that he wished, if only for a moment, to draw a breath in another world, whatever it might be, and, despite all the filthiness of the situation, it was with pleasure that he now went on sitting in the tavern.
Chapter 4Quote:
He woke up late the next day, after a troubled sleep, but sleep had not fortified him. He woke up bilious, irritable, and angry, and looked with hatred at his little room. It was a tiny closet, about six paces long, of a most pathetic appearance, with yellow, dusty wallpaper coming off the walls everywhere, and with such a low ceiling that a man of any height at all felt creepy in it and kept thinking he might bump his head every moment.
Quote:
His mother's letter had tormented him. But concerning the main, capital point he had not a moment's doubt, not even while he was reading the letter. The main essence of the matter was decided in his mind and decided finally: “This marriage will not take place as long as I live, and to the devil with Mr. Luzhin!
Bah-hahaha
I'm sure that's what she'd'a translated if she'd'a had our insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by bounty
You know the translations really are quite different.
words and meanings and how they move across languages are interesting things. i belong to a web-based international penpal site. not long after i first joined i had a Russian penpal who wanted to be a translator (or was it an interpreter?) and we used to have fun with translations. right now i have a penpal in china who is learning to do something similar.
i finished chapter 6 last night. i could have read more but the ending was so creepy and ominous that i didn't want to go to sleep with any more of that playing out. i think we are in a drum roll position for raskol's murdering.
I was also going over the murder scene last night and could not help but admire the wording which was done with almost surgical precision in the narrative by Dostoyevsky. Rascal goes to the scene, there are doors open (mere coincidence? fate?), and it seems that everything is ripe precisely so that such a horrendous act can take place. But just when he lowers the boom, the sister appears. Then he croaks her as well. Then when he tries to escape, an intruder stumbles upon the scene. Then a neighbor. Now it seems like he's cooked. But as Fate would have it, both the intruder and neighbor walk away and he stumbles upon an apartment whose door, just coincidentally, is open. He hides briefly as everyone walks past him and then makes his escape. Free at last, Thank God Almighty, Free at Last!
But this is only the beginning of his self created nightmare as we are soon to learn.
Again, I go back to the almost surgical precision in the narrative ~ as a reader you can just see the perspiration in Rascal's forehead in your imagination. You can see him fumbling the hatchet in his hand, the way he tries to wipe the blood from his garments and hands, the heavy breathing, the look of fear, the frightful anticipation, him hurrying and trying to look inconspicuous, etc. Scary but fascinating sequence made all the more real by the superbly written narrative.
There's so much more that I can add to all the above.
I was struck by the continued stream of conscience in the narrative. This was something you did not see in those days and this is why commentators called it the first existential novel in history (dunno if they do anymore). Rascal listens in on a student and soldier commenting about the wicked old lady whom he calls "an old witch". Not that they say croaking her was a good thing. But that if someone croaked her it would be well deserved and constituted 'justice' as she was such a b_____h. Because of all that he determines that killing her "was not a crime".
"When reason fails, the Devil helps". Indeed, when he makes his escape, a city bus goes by and obscures him so that witnesses cannot see him fleeing.
I'm now up to the part where he receives a summons from the fuzz. Don't recall what precisely happened at that point but will return to the online book later tonight. Again, what is so striking is the suspense ...
I just finished the first section, chapters 1-7, and to your point, Poppin, it is masterfully written and very readable. Anyone who has avoided Dostoevsky thinking his books are dense, egg-headed fiction can rest easy and shouldn’t hesitate to give him a read. On one level this book is a page-turner crime novel. I can’t take credit for this, but somebody on-line said it’s not so much a who-done-it as it is a why-he-done-it.
After Moby Dick I couldn’t help but to notice how many women characters were in the first section. Sonya and Dunya. Alyona and Lizaveta Ivanovna. The moms Katerina and Pulcheria. The drunken girl being pursued by the creepy chubby guy. Even the old draft horse in Raskol’s dream was a mare. I also couldn’t help but to notice most of these women lacked agency. They are largely are victims of circumstance. So far anyway.
I just finished chapter 7 also.
a good question about the "why he done it"----ive been finding myself wondering about raskol's motivation---covetousness, envy, and desperation seem to be factors, but I don't recall Dostoevsky touching on those things. we've got ~400 pages in the aftermath of the murder and I wonder if we'll ever know, or if the emphasis is going to be on the turmoil he's bound to face.
he's a despicable character and I also wonder if as we get to know what goes on inside his heart and head, if my view of him will soften and include forgiveness.
poppin, I had to smile, your use of the word "fuzz" gives your time period away!
Quote:
bounty,
poppin, I had to smile, your use of the word "fuzz" gives your time period away!
Over the years I've had numerous online pals to whom I have confessed that I feel I was born in the wrong century. That the real me sat in on old meetings of the Transcendentalist lyceum meetings or in late 1700s reading societies mentioned by Prof Jon Robison in his Proofs of a Conspiracy [1797] or possibly in Russian intellectual circles at the time of Dostoyevsky.
https://www.library.illinois.edu/spx...d/bookstor.gif
Am now in my 70s but still cannot get over this belief. So yes, I did grow up in the 1960s and have used the term fuzz often preceded by a four letter term that begins with a capital F. This despite being related to several cops.
Haha, Fuzzy Wuzzy was a Bear. Smokey Bear that is.
Yeah I think that was the Crime part. The rest of the book concerns the Punishment. The cover art on your book, bounty, seems to suggest a tell-tale heart sort of thing going on.
I think it’s a combination of motivations for Rascol. There are those you mentioned as well as a few others and a few events he had no control over. So it’s a pile-on effect, and this on top of an already angsty young guy. And he’s an angsty young guy who’s bad need of a girl friend. And that’s a volatile mix.
I read somewhere the greatest predictor of a community having a higher than average murder rate is if that community has a higher than average percentage of young men in it.
i wonder what the 19th century Russian slang for the police was.
I don't necessarily see myself as being born in the wrong century so to speak, but somewhat consistent with what you wrote, I often wonder what I might have been if I found myself in some other century. I do appreciate the nerdy intellectual parts, but I can also imagine being a lewis & clark explorer type.
it is fun to consider what the drawing on the cover means in terms of how the story unfolds.
yes, young men in general, and unemployed, fatherless ones all the more so.
I don't think I've ever wished I lived in another time and place. I have however fantasized about getting a redo. You know, going back in time and fixing all the stupid stuff I've done over the years... and maybe buying a few different stocks than the ones I bought.
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Originally Posted by bounty
Quote:
Sancho,
Sancho
I don't think I've ever wished I lived in another time and place. I have however fantasized about getting a redo. You know, going back in time and fixing all the stupid stuff I've done over the years... and maybe buying a few different stocks than the ones I bought.
If you haven't done so already, please read
https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/wp...in-195x300.jpg
https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/20...and-again.html
A true modern CLASSIC.
Also please watch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjCp3wFQrKI
Going back in time and doing good along the way. Both great stories.
Back to Rascal's misadventures:
Turns out that the summons was re his default on financial pledges. Am surprised that this was brought to the attention of the police rather than to a court of equity. In response to the cop's inquiry he replies, "I am a student, poor, and sick". He is forced to sign yet another pledge and faints at the compound. Upon returning to his flat he despairs as to ridding himself of any evidence. He succeeds in hiding the stuff away under a large rock not having checked for cash and not knowing the full contents of what he disposed.
He ventures onto Razumihin's flat and wonders if he got there by fate or by chance. They discuss a certain party named Heruvimov and discuss the "woman question". Rascal is so disoriented that he refused to give German lesson and rejects a small honorarium for the lessons. He briefly causes a disruption on the street and is whipped by a teamster for it. People laugh but a gentlelady gives him 20 cps out of kindness. Then he stupidly dumps the cash.
Thereafter he stops at a place where he often ventured as a student and wonder if fate again drew him there.
Upon returning to his flat he goes almost completely delusional and faints again. He imagined that police were beating the landlady even though it was he who dispatched the old wicked wench. Nastasya the housekeeper does all she can to feed and nurse him but he raves on and does not eat.
It is only too clear that Rascal is a few cards short of a full deck and lacks full mental capacity. Very self defeating and suicidal. He may well hate injustices but he has more hate for himself.
I still have to read all posts about C&P but this part is terrible. Looking back I don´t remember if R. was already ill, when he commited the crimes or if he fell ill because he commited them.
thanks poppin, i'll keep my eyes peeled for it.
nothing showed up in your second part of that post though. does it for you, and just maybe not for me?
Sancho, you just reminded me of hot tub time machine which is really not worth watching, and a little of about time which is delightful and totally worth watching.
haven't started part II yet, but danik, im confident all the mental and physical reactions poppin described are post-murder and attributable to it, so at least raskols not a sociopath.
in the meantime...
a short poll:
will the authorities discover raskol's crime? I lean towards no
will he confess them? I lean towards yes
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bounty
nothing showed up in your second part of that post though. does it for you, and just maybe not for me?
Am surprised it does not appear on your screen.
The title is Time And Teresa Golowitz - The New Twilight Zone 1985 TV Series on The Haunted Channel within You Tube. It was based on a story written by Pete (Parke) Godwin who was a pal of mine many years ago. He was one of those guys who you never forget.
Re your short poll, I prefer not to spoil. But they are good questions.
For some reason, I forgot to include a note on this incident which appeared in Ch 5.
You know how to British and Americans the dog is regarded as mankind's best friend. To us Hispanics the horse is regarded as such. My understanding is that horses were also held in very high regard among Russians and Ukrainians. This should not come as a surprise since their ancestors were warriors who roamed Central Asia and Europe relying heavily on the horse to provide the means to make capital and conquests.
But in this terrible incident in C & P a horse is tortured by a teamster with members of the unwashed crowd joining in on the "fun" of destroying this noble and utilitarian creature. This incident IIRC was a nightmare that Rascal had and not an actual event. But it likely represents how to his twisted mind (and those of the imaginary, unwashed, and unwise crowd) is because a noble innocent creature is reduced to a play thing, a punching bag, a crash test dummy. They use clubs and iron bars as well as kicks and the drivers whip. Perhaps the dream also foretells Rascal fate as the weight of the world and universe falls upon him for his evil. It also displays the conformity of the crowd which no longer regards old ways taught by Old Order Russia and regards those lessons as useless, frivolous, and deserving of severest retributive punishment. Indeed, one older person asks the driver, "What are you about, are you a Christian, you devil?” shouted an old man in the crowd ... “No mistake about it, you are not a Christian,” many voices were shouting in the crowd." Thus, old order Russians conformed to the traditions values and ways. New order Russians don't as shown by that rowdy and unkempt crowd.
As a child Rascal accepted and conformed to Old Order Russia values and ways. This is why he sympathized with the horse and the nobility it represented. Before it is revealed that he had that dream of the horse, he had another dream about an old church where his sibling and grandmother are buried. It is said that he,
"In the middle of the graveyard stood a stone church with a green cupola where he used to go to mass two or three times a year with his father and mother, when a service was held in memory of his grandmother, who had long been dead, and whom he had never seen. On these occasions they used to take on a white dish tied up in a table napkin a special sort of rice pudding with raisins stuck in it in the shape of a cross. He loved that church, the old-fashioned, unadorned ikons and the old priest with the shaking head ..."
Now as an adult he has no regard for the church, for compliance with the law, no regard for intellectual pursuits, for material rewards in return for hard work and industry. Why are New Order Russians like this? Nihilism, socialism, anarchism, New Thought?
Whatever the cause, these people who destroyed the horse are not Christian. He says he will perform a similar act upon the wretched old woman. Thus, he, too, is not a Christian. He is not a true Russian. His mind corrupted not just by mental deficiency, but, no doubt, from corrupting influences which to this point in the story have not been entirely revealed by the author.
A few posts earlier I may have mentioned that there appear to be Apocalyptic warnings in these great Russian classics. That these authors were telling their society that it is on the verge of a irreversible cataclysm for various reasons - that it is too unjust, that people are under influence of alien thoughts, that Jews have an undue influence over intellectual circles and that they exert corrupting influences over many, and that people are leaving the church and the good things it represents. That when combined all this would lead to the dissipation of Russian society. I feel that this chapter starts to illustrate this in C & P.
To Danik's question, he was sick before the murders. At first he was just faking illness to get rid of Nastasya, the cleaning lady. But as time goes by he seems to actually be getting sick, and then sicker and sicker. Fake it til you make it, right? Even before the murders he's a bundle of nerves and he's getting nervier. He isn't eating right. He doesn't sleep well. From part one to part two he's gone from an angsty young guy who's prone to mild anxiety attacks to a full blown paranoid schizophrenic.
As for the survey, I'll participate because I have no idea where this thing is going. I’ll bet the Po-Po (that'd be the Fuzz for you Poppin) do pursue the case. (This is pre-Soviet Russia after all.) I'm less sure about Raskol's fate. But I think I'll put him on a suicide watch.
The old draft horse scene is hard to read, particularly because the old gal is trying so hard to please her master. The peasant who owns her and the cart is a boor. The drunken revelers think it’s fun to make the horse suffer. And the bystanders don’t have the spleen to intervene. I’ll only point out here that (again) this is pre-Soviet Russia, but not by much, and Dostoevsky had just written Notes From Underground in part as an answer to Nikolai Chernyshevsky’s nihilist novel What Is To Be Done.
From a story standpoint, the horse scene reminded me of two things. First was the drunken hay merchant in The Mayor of Casterbridge auctioning off his wife and child for a few coins. And second was a line from Peace Frog, a Doors tune:
Evidently as a small child Jim Morrison and his family came upon a bad wreck on a highway near Albuquerque where a number of native Americans were bleeding to death. It effected him for the rest of his life.Quote:
Indians scattered on dawn’s highway bleeding. Ghosts crowd the young child’s fragile eggshell mind.
More theme music. Peace Frog, The Doors:
https://youtu.be/6lnoM25D-js?si=crTHnw3e4koJBJxq
Hot Tub Time Machine. Great movie — "Hey, Uncle Adam, what's that thing on the back of the TV?”
I have some weird things going on poppin with browsers, staying logged on, and being able to use the site. I end up having to use the "internet explorer" tool within my browser and so some of the posts and features here aren't supported.
I think one of you guys mentioned this already, or something close to it---the poor horse beating scene as both warning and foreshadowing of raskols murder of the pawnbroker. whats fascinating was he received it as a warning, renounced the path, but then went ahead and took it anyways.
i got partway into part II last night, hopefully lots more today but one really nifty line from last night:
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the conviction, that all his faculties, even memory, and the simplest power of reflection were failing him, began to be an insufferable torture. "surely it isn't beginning already! surely it isn't my punishment coming upon me? it is!"