It´s a beautiful poem, poppin. I put the link on #40 because the poem is large. Some parallels there to Moby Dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
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It´s a beautiful poem, poppin. I put the link on #40 because the poem is large. Some parallels there to Moby Dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
I agree, guys, that is a beautiful poem.
I also agree with you, bounty, it’s a slippery slope to look at a group of people from a historical period and make a moral judgement about them using modern sensibilities and informed by a knowledge of science and history we have that they didn’t. I forget which philosopher said it, but it was something like — every generation of philosophers stands on the shoulders of the previous generation. Plato stood on Socrates’ shoulders; Aristotle stood on Plato’s shoulders; and on and on. But, you know, every once in while I think we can look at a period in history and say — those people were wrong, and they really should have known better. For instance chattel slavery in the American south at around the time Melville wrote this book. Those people were wrong and they should have known better. Talk about a selective reading of the Bible — whew! Southern clerics defended the Peculiar Institution with peculiar reasoning and with a most peculiar interpretation of the Bible. Northern clerics read the same passages in the same book and came up the opposite conclusion. I’m thinking it was that issue that caused the schism in Baptist Church and gave rise to The Southern Baptists.
So if I’m engaging in finger-pointing, the question of slavery seems like a no-brainer. Whaling, as you point out, is a bit more of a gray area. A guy like Ishmael, with a 300th stake in the endeavor, is barely making ends meet. And he gives an impassioned defense of whaling in The Advocate chapter. I just didn’t agree with his arguments. Nor did I agree with Rick Perry’s arguments in defense of the fossil fuel industry. Captains Peleg and Bildad, as the rich owners, are on shakier ground, and I think Melville points that out.
Of course anybody who finger-points at a previous generation is obliged to do a little self examination. What are we doing now that’ll have people couple of hundred years from now shaking their heads in disgust? Factory farming? Nationalistic wars? Air pollution?
Whooeee! Heavy subject. On a lighter topic — Aunt Charity. Here’s a limitation of my imagination — as I was reading about her I kept picturing Betsey Trotwood. They’re totally different characters with almost nothing in common, but Betsey is still fresh in mind. So there you go.
OFF TOPIC
Can't resist talking about pro boxing. For many years it was my absolute passion in life just as it was to my dad who was a former semi-pro boxer way back in the 1930s. The sport has attracted many highly literate people over the many decades with one being Charles Francis "Socker" Coe:
https://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/w...0/image034.jpg
https://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/p...to-collection/
Fascinating human being. Great scholar, former boxer and announcer. He called some of Joe Louis's bouts. Wrote many stories one of which was said to have inspired the infamous St Valentine Day's Massacre. Despite his great fame and success in the sports and in journalism, he suddenly retired at age 50 to become a lawyer. Passed the Florida state bar exam even though he did not attend law school and became a great influence in developing the state tourist trade and real estate development.
I must confess that I cannot understand why or how so many literary scholars are attracted to pugilism as the sweet science of boxing is known. Does anyone have any idea why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danik 2016
Thanks for sharing that link. I believe that I read it in Junior High School some time around 1966 or thereabouts. The one line I remembered was,
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.
And yes, you are correct in that it parallels MD by having the same cycle of sin, penance, and redemption. In killing the innocent albatross the culprit violated a law of God or of Nature. That such ill advised violence does harm to oneself and to the natural order (and that because of this others can be harmed as well). That only in compliance with the natural order does one flourish peacefully. In fact, albatross was mentioned several time in MD. No doubt that Melville was influenced by Coleridge's poem. I wonder if the "prophet" Elijah was modeled after the mariner because he, too, had a story to tell though it was a sham (or so thought Ish) unlike the fate suffered by the mariner.
I opened up my volume of MD and had forgotten that there was Chapter LII called "The Albatross". This was a spectral vessel which looked like it survived a disaster. When its captain picks up his horn to speak with Ahab, he accidentally drops the horn and cannot communicate. This was viewed as an ominous portent by the ''insane old man''. This foretells the reader that like the mariner, Ahab awaits an unhappy fate because of his unwise urgency in wanting to kill the whale thereby violating the natural order of things.
Boxing! Hey, straying off topic adds spice to life. Although if we go down that path we’ll probably wind up reading Hemingway next. Not such a bad thing.
Ditto. Thanks for the link, Danik. I need to read it before I get the Albatross chapter in MD. That’s one of the many things I like about literature — you open one door only to find twenty more doors to open.
i suggest two answers as things to consider side by side.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
one is, i think literary scholars, as well as professional journalists, hobbyists and lay people of all walks of life, are attracted to a myriad of things. so its really hard to quantify or isolate boxing as being special in this regard.
but to try to answer the question more directly poppin, id put forth that the attraction to boxing in general speaks to humanity's inherent martial nature. all athletic contests have that but boxing is an elemental/fundamenal version of it. the particular attraction from scholars or other writers, possibly stems from that.
as a fun aside, bing AI says this about the word "pugilism":
The word “pugilism” refers to the sport of boxing. It was derived from the Latin word “pugil,” which means “boxer” and is related to the Latin word “pugnus,” meaning “fist”. The sport of boxing was first introduced in the 23rd Olympiad of 688 BCE by the Greeks, and the ancient Romans adopted it from them. The word “pugilism” was adopted by the English language in the 18th century and has since been used to refer to both the sport of boxing and metaphorical sparring, such as in a political debate
True. Boxing goes waaaaay back to the times of the ancient Greeks and Egyptians. I remember reading of Epeios in Homer's Iliad. He was so tough, nobody dared challenge him. Sherlock Holmes had been a boxer in his youth as were a great many literary characters over the years.
In modern times Jack London, Hemingway, AJ Leibling, George Plimpton, Norman Mailer, and "Socker" Coe were obsessed with it. Heck, even Joyce Carol Oates was every bit as obsessed as they were.
There's something about that great sport that attracts intellectuals so it's no surprise that a great many movies (as well as good fiction) were made about the subject.
Haven’t found boxing in Moby yet, but Stubb, one of the mates, weighs in on getting hit with a fist as opposed to a cane:
So we finally meet Ahab, and the Pequod is already a few days out to sea. Ishmael sees him standing on the quarter deck, like an Oak, steadying himself by wedging his peg leg into a divot on the deck. Ishmael notes how once at sea Ahab almost never sleeps, he’s always topside.Quote:
‘Why,’ thinks I, ‘what’s the row? It’s not a real leg, only a false one.’ And there’s a mighty difference between a living thump and a dead thump. That’s what makes a blow from the hand, Flask, fifty times more savage to bear than a blow from a cane. The living member — that makes the living insult, my little man.
Stubb approaches Ahab and asks him, in so many words, to take it easy thumping across the deck with his whalebone peg leg because it’s noisy and is keeping the sailors below awake. Ahab basically tells him to go pound sand. Stubb retreats but is indignant about how the captain spoke to him. And like so many men who get put in their place at work and then go home and vent to their wife — “shoulda seen what I did to this clown at work today, hon” — Stubb whines to Flask about it. Flask, one of the other mates, tells him — “let it go, man. He’s just big-dicking you — something like that. Anyway, Ahab had never even touched Stubb. He didn’t have to, evidently. Stubb’s encounter with Ahab bothered him so much that he had a dream about it. He dreamt Ahab was kicking him with his prosthetic leg, and that’s what gave rise to his convo with Flask, and his theory that it’s worse to be punched than to be caned.
Okay, so, I took a few liberties paraphrasing what Flask said to Stubb. What he really said was:
Quote:
No, you were kicked by a great man, and with a beautiful ivory leg, Stubb. It’s an honor;
I don't recollect any boxing about the Pequod, or anywhere else in the book, but that, and what you posted above Sancho reminds of how history, and therefore seafaring literature and cinema is full of harsh corporal disciplinary measures, especially in the british navy but also on merchant ships.
back to the point of boxing and intellectuals---I recently had occasion to share this quote from Thucydides:
“The Nation that makes a huge distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.”
Haha. Good Greek General quote. Sounds like our adventures in Vietnam. Although now, it seems the pendulum has swung. We’ve got an 80 something president going to a war zone while “warriors” are sitting in trailers in Nevada flying Predator drones and pushing buttons that kill people thousands of miles away. It’s bizarre.
Anyway, ta-da, I found boxing in Moby Dick. After his big speech, and the nailing of the Spanish coin to the mast, Ahab is ruminating in his cabin:
Ahab, it seems, has a low opinion of boxers.Quote:
I now prophesy that I will dismember my dismemberer. Now, then, be the prophet and the fulfiller one. That’s more than ye, ye great gods, ever were. I laugh and hoot at ye, ye cricket-players, ye pugilists, ye deaf Burkes and blinded Bendigoes! I will not say as schoolboys do to bullies — Take some one of your own size; don’t pommel me! No, ye’ve knocked me down, and I am up again; but ye have run and hidden.
Meanwhile, topside, the crew is reacting to Ahab’s speech. It’s a fun chapter. The boys are about three sheets to wind and singing bawdy sea shanties. A storm is approaching. And then racism rears its ugly head when a Spanish sailor disrespects an African harpooner (Dagoo) and a boxing match almost breaks out (foiled by the approaching storm).
Quote:
…look yonder, boys, there’s another in the sky lurid — like, ye see, all else pitch black.
DAGGOO — What of that? Who’s afraid of black’s afraid of me! I’m quarried out of it!
SPANISH SAILOR (Aside.) — He wants to bully, ah!— the old grudge makes me touchy (Advancing.) Aye, harpooneer, thy race is the undeniable dark side of mankind — devilish dark at that. No offence.
DAGGOO (Grimly) —None.
ST. JAGO’S SAILOR — That Spaniard’s mad or drunk. But that can’t be, or else in his one case our old Mogul’s fire-waters are somewhat long in working.
5TH NANTUCKET SAILOR — What’s that I saw — lightning? Yes.
SPANISH SAILOR — No; Daggoo showing his teeth.
DAGGOO (Springing) — Swallow thine, mannikin! White skin, white liver!
SPANISH SAILOR (Meeting him) — Knife thee heartily! big frame, small spirit!
ALL — A row! a row! a row!
TASHTEGO (With a whiff) — A row a’low, and a row aloft — Gods and men — both brawlers! Humph!
BELFAST SAILOR —A row! arrah a row! The Virgin be blessed, a row! Plunge in with ye!
ENGLISH SAILOR — Fair play! Snatch the Spaniard’s knife! A ring, a ring!
OLD MANX SAILOR — Ready formed. There! the ringed horizon. In that ring Cain struck Abel. Sweet work, right work! No? Why then, God, mad’st thou the ring?
MATE’S VOICE FROM THE QUARTER-DECK —Hands by the halyards! in top-gallant sails! Stand by to reef topsails! ALL The squall! the squall! jump, my jollies! (They scatter.)
Quote:
Sancho,
I found boxing in Moby Dick. After his big speech, and the nailing of the Spanish coin to the mast, Ahab is ruminating in his cabin:
I now prophesy that I will dismember my dismemberer. Now, then, be the prophet and the fulfiller one. That’s more than ye, ye great gods, ever were. I laugh and hoot at ye, ye cricket-players, ye pugilists, ye deaf Burkes and blinded Bendigoes! I will not say as schoolboys do to bullies — Take some one of your own size; don’t pommel me! No, ye’ve knocked me down, and I am up again; but ye have run and hidden.
Ahab, it seems, has a low opinion of boxers.
Meanwhile, topside, the crew is reacting to Ahab’s speech. It’s a fun chapter. The boys are about three sheets to wind and singing bawdy sea shanties. A storm is approaching. And then racism rears its ugly head when a Spanish sailor disrespects an African harpooner (Dagoo) and a boxing match almost breaks out (foiled by the approaching storm).
…look yonder, boys, there’s another in the sky lurid — like, ye see, all else pitch black.
DAGGOO — What of that? Who’s afraid of black’s afraid of me! I’m quarried out of it!
SPANISH SAILOR (Aside.) — He wants to bully, ah!— the old grudge makes me touchy (Advancing.) Aye, harpooneer, thy race is the undeniable dark side of mankind — devilish dark at that. No offence.
DAGGOO (Grimly) —None.
ST. JAGO’S SAILOR — That Spaniard’s mad or drunk. But that can’t be, or else in his one case our old Mogul’s fire-waters are somewhat long in working ...
Great excerpts. I had forgotten this episode in that classic book. We see Ahab's soliloquy in which he appears to challenge Nature or Nature's God much like Nebuchadnezzar drinking, boasting, and then defying the biblical Jehovah to his peril. He refused to listen to wise counsel (from Daniel, I believe it was) and influenced his soldiers to do the same all to their doom. Ahab also defies wise counsel (given to him by Starbucks), gets his men into a massive drunken reverie, they pledge their undying loyalty to him, and, as we are to learn, do as to their peril as well. Both men have a very troubling dream, not realizing that it was a prophesy -- that they should turn back from their evils ways, listen to wise counsel, and adhere to good principle. Neither does so. The result is disaster for all.
im reading an old western called the silver desert by ernest haycox. there is large ranch and spread in Nevada called "the barrier" and there are some bad guys, led by a fellow named buffalo, who are trying to ruin it. one of the ranch's outposts, manned by a fellow named bill, was attacked by the bad guys and the ranch's owner, his foreman (matt), and some others went out to render aid:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
Quote:
"the depards didn't think up this mischief, it was buffalo of course."
matt strang waggled his head. "we're going to have a whole hell of a lot of grief up here in this broken country. I feel it. bill spiel's not the man you want to handle this camp four district. he could've made this three men do against six if he'd had nerve enough. he reads too much."
"shouldn't be a handicap."
"you cant scrap with your fingers in a book..."
Ya know, I was just considering making my next read an old western, a Zane Grey or a Louis L’Amour. I haven’t read too much in that genre. Lonesome Dove is the only one I can think of. As for the Greek General, Thucydides was required reading for several courses I took while in the military. I gravitated more towards Herodotus. I’d rather read about the man on the street than armies and war. The Histories is a book you can pick up, read several pages at random, and find something interesting.
I’m nearing the half way point in Moby Dick. Tashtego has spotted a pod of whales. The boats are lowered, and the boys lay chase. Turns out Ahab has a ringer crew. We sort of know there are stowaways onboard, but until now we don’t know who they are. Ahab has a crew of Filipinos and a big ole turbaned fellow named Fedallah, all wearing black. WTF?
But first, back to Ahab’s speech to the crew on the quarter deck. I saw it as tactical. It also told me it was his intention from the get-go to make this voyage all about revenge. He never had any intention of whaling for the investors. Tactically it was all about getting the sailors in his corner, which would make it just about impossible for the mates to mutiny. Starbuck, 1st mate, is caught off guard by Ahab’s speech and is only able to mount a weak defense. Then he caves pretty quickly, or more accurately he just holds his tongue. Stubb, 2nd mate, is mute, probably because Ahab had already b*tch-slapped him in an earlier encounter and thus Stubb is gun-shy (tragic mixed metaphor there). And finally, Flask, 3rd mate. Where’s Flask? Who knows. Flask is MIA. He’s probably inspecting his fingernails while all this is going on.
From Ahab’s inner dialog earlier, it appears he has totally gone over to the dark side. I think at one time he was probably a good Quaker, but since the whale bit off his leg he has lost his faith. He even jabs his thumb into the eye of God and declares himself the prophet and the fulfiller. When Starbuck calls him out on his blasphemy, Ahab replies:
The chapter about Moby himself is where we see this crucial moment:Quote:
Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me.
Two images images popped into my mind here: First, Hugh Glass in The Revenant battling Mama grizzly with a Bowie knife. Second, the bishop in Caddy Shack losing his religion after almost playing the best 9 holes he ever played.Quote:
His three boats stove around him, and oars and men both whirling in the eddies; one captain, seizing the line-knife from his broken prow, had dashed at the whale, as an Arkansas duellist at his foe, blindly seeking with a six inch blade to reach the fathom-deep life of the whale. That captain was Ahab. And then it was, that suddenly sweeping his sickle-shaped lower jaw beneath him, Moby Dick had reaped away Ahab’s leg, as a mower a blade of grass in the field. No turbaned Turk, no hired Venetian or Malay, could have smote him with more seeming malice.
There was a storm involved here too. Bill Murray is playing Ishmael, I suppose:
https://youtu.be/Pe5eL8LQdY0?si=QmQTLhUWzhsIttvc
Later at the bar:
https://youtu.be/DEKyx_eTxBQ?si=FzswKtngaaHgGmeB
What can I say? I’m a simple man.
BTW Hugh Glass, though near-fatally injured, kills mama grizzly.
ive enjoyed every l'amour book ive read, but zane grey is my favorite. I also like max brand and can heartily recommend him too.
that's an interesting point about Ahab's tactics.
caddyshack is one of the best movies ever. "id keep playing, I don't think the heavy stuffs going come down for quite a while."
some trivia:
In the scene where the Bishop (played by veteran actor Henry Wilcoxon) is having his best round of golf ever during a thunderstorm, he misses an easy putt, looks skyward and yells "rat farts!", and is immediately struck down by a bolt of lightning. The background music in this scene was from The Ten Commandments, in which Wilcoxon played the part of Pentaur.
back to Ishmael, I've still be going through my far side collection, and was reminded there are at least a few moby dick ones. see the attachments.
Major Kong rides the bomb in Dr Strangelove:
Attachment 9968
https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5...-still-580.jpg
Ishmael rides the dolphins:
With a frigate's anchors for my bridle-bitts and fasces of harpoons for spurs, would I could mount that whale and leap the topmost skies, to see whether the fabled heavens with all their countless tents really lie encamped beyond my mortal sight!
Ch 57, Of Whales In Paint ... In Stars
White - the color which usually represents beauty, innocence, purity, goodness, and virtue. However, in MD the color is used to denote death, evil, sin, and every manner of bad things.
Ch 14 Nantucket ~ the term "wight" (pronounced white) is used to represent inhabitants of that locale. We are told throughout the book that this is hardly a Paradise or Heaven and that, in fact, it is a perilous place. Among several definitions that it has, the word "wight" a reanimated corpse or zombie brought back to life by sorcery.
Ch 38 Ahab ~ carries the mark of death. The "whitish" tree stump he wears as a leg which made him an "old sepulchral man" who was "dead" "grim" who wore a "crucifixion in his face" "seated upon an ivory stool" and sailed during the "dead wintry bleakness.
Ch 41 Moby Dick ~ described throughout as evil. He is called here the White Whale possessed of "ferocity {of} unexampled malignity {causing} fatalities, disasters, death ... deadliest ill."
Ch 42 Whiteness of the Whale ~ "It was the whiteness of the whale that most appalled me" says Ish. He says that usually whiteness represents mythical good. But instead, in the real world it represents evil such as white Europeans evilly conquering militarily dark skinned races world wide, the whiteness of the albatross casts evil spells (see also the chapter on the albatross), the Albino man repels all, in the seas the White Squall foretells danger, the murderous White Hoods of Ghent, white represents pallor of the dead, peculiar apparitions, White Friar or White Nun are soul less, the White Sea is spectral, "the tall pale man" of European legend is a terrible phantom, the snow filled Andes mountains are dangerous and deadly, etc. Whiteness represents a leprous 'palsied universe'.
Ch 119 The Candles ~ We see St Elmo's Fire whose pallidness revealed a "ghostly light" which portends fiery doom.
Great irony that while the world usually calls white the color of good and black the color of evil, Ishmael tells us just the opposite {SPOILER ALERT}. As most of you know, Ish lives because he is saved when he rests upon the coffin of his black brother Quee.
Now let's go to pro boxing.
Please recall Muhammed Ali's interview on angel food cake being white while devil food cake being black:
https://www.facebook.com/Funnews7/vi...1314310928646/
Oh the irony!
Oh, I forgot that in Ch 59 ~ Squid --- a gigantic white squid (furlongs in length and breath) called a "white ghost" and a "monster" appears. Again, its color again represents evil. It scares the sailors especially Starbucks who repeatedly gave warnings of impending danger but did not scare Ahab who persisted in continuing the mission.
Haha. I think Gary Larson may struggle with writer’s block from time to time. That panel is just too on-point. I’ve got a collection of his in a box in my basement. When I’m trying to organize down there, I’ll come across it and then I don’t get anything else done. As for Caddyshack, I’d say there’s a handful of movies from that era without which guys my age wouldn’t know how to act. And wouldn’t be able to communicate with each other. So we got that going for us, which is nice. Stripes is another. Dr. Strangelove, although from an earlier era, is another. Major Kong was no Ahab, though. He was a pretty good aircraft commander. So good, in fact, he wound up kicking off a nuclear holocaust. It was B.G. Jack T. Ripper that had gone full Ahab.
I think chapters like Of Whales In Paint are a good example of why some people hate this book. Ishmael has a penchant for going off on a tangent and musing about this thing or that instead of getting on with the action. — Yeah, yeah, yeah, the sky is blue and the sea is too, but what happens NEXT? Actually I kind of like those chapters. Among other things it gives the reader the sense of all the dead time sailors had on the ship. And some of his descriptions are amazing. Here Fedallah has taken up the watch in the crow’s nest at night. He wears a snow-white turban:
This is an action sequence, but what a visual, eh? The whale boats are in hot pursuit:Quote:
You may think with what emotions, then, the seamen beheld this old Oriental perched aloft at such unusual hours; his turban and the moon, companions in one sky.
I do like a good barnyard simile.Quote:
the brief suspended agony of the boat, as it would tip for an instant on the knife-like edge of the sharper waves, that almost seemed threatening to cut it in two; the sudden profound dip into the watery glens and hollows; the keen spurrings and goadings to gain the top of the opposite hill; the headlong, sled-like slide down its other side;— all these, with the cries of the headsmen and harpooneers, and the shuddering gasps of the oarsmen, with the wondrous sight of the ivory Pequod bearing down upon her boats with outstretched sails, like a wild hen after her screaming brood;—
You know, I think Muhammad Ali could’ve written The Whiteness Of The Whale chapter. That was an awesome clip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
You get a major thumbs up for that one!
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/...1000_QL80_.jpg
Well, thumbs up right back at’cha, my friend. This website and you-all have made reading Moby Dick so much more enjoyable than it would’ve been otherwise.
From me too!
Thanks for those endorsement above. Indeed, re-reading portions of this striking book has been fun for me as well. :hurray:
The Pequod ~ what does this name symbolize?
The Pequots were a doomed tribe of Native Americans. They suffered from war and the ravishes of pestilence. Few survived and most of those who did intermingled with other Algonquin tribes in the Northeast. The vessel which is named after these doomed people is comprised of an assorted set of ne'er-do-wells with sea worthies of various backgrounds. Each contributes to the vessels functions with a great many of them named after biblical characters. The boat meets and deals with other sailing ships which shows that the Pequod and its amalgamation of cultures serves as microcosm for the world. Thus, as in the Bible which is repeatedly referenced in the novel, when in compliance with Nature's law it succeeds. When in violation thereof, it is doomed. Being that it is under the command of an evil character in Ahab, its destiny would become ill fated. Bottom line being that the name of the vessel is prophetic ~ it spells doom for itself and its crew.
Forgot to add one thing: that, indeed, the few Pequots who survived did so through integration with other tribes or with the general white population. Bear in mind that Frederick Douglass's sermons were all about integration. That America would not survive unless and until society ended slavery and became integrated:
In its primary applications, Douglass envisioned the Afro-American effort to INTEGRATE as an effort to cultivate the practical virtues required for success in America's political economy, along with a wholehearted patriotic identification with the American nation in its core principles and its historical strivings ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=fred...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Perhaps Melville's use of the name Pequod may have included this type of symbolic implication as well.
I was thinking along the same lines as to what the name of the ship would spell for the crew. Captain Peleg sort of jovially mentions the tribe, but doesn't give his reasoning for naming the ship after it. Seems dark. Maybe it’s like telling an actor to “break a leg” right before they go on stage.
Speaking of ship names, the story of the Town-Ho is an odd one, and told in an odd way. A strapping young sailor, Steelkilt, has been singled out by the 1st mate, Radney, for extra cruelty. Steelkilt is a well-liked, ,charismatic fellow, and Radney is a mousey little guy with short-man energy. Anyway to make a long story short, (and it’s a long story) Steelkilt can’t take it anymore and nearly kills Radney with one punch — drives his jaw back into his face. Nautical justice is performed; Steelkilt attempts mutiny; mutiny fails; Moby Dick kills Radney; much of the crew abandons ship at the next port. The story of course is much more nuanced than that and is delivered in the book as Ishmael retelling the story years later to a bunch of Spanish patricians in Lima. Odd. Okay we all know how this book turns out, so the story of the Town-Ho seems like a pretty straight forward foreshadowing of things to come for the Pequod, but what would it mean to Ahab and his crew? Ahab already believes the white whale is an evil force. It seems to me, from his perspective, the experience of the Town-Ho just bolsters that belief in his damaged mind and makes it that much more important for him to kill the evil beast.
Side note here: I can’t help but to giggle in a Beavis and Butthead sort of way when I read names like the Town-Ho, or when they talk about the aroma of golden sperm. Melville had to know stuff like that would crack up the ten-year-old boy inside of all of us.
What he probably didn’t know was how uncomfortable it would be us to read the rendering of Fleece’s speech in the chapter about Stubb’s dinner. Fleece is the ship’s cook. He is an old black man and his speech is laid out phonetically in the chapter. Additionally his treatment by Stubb in that chapter is highly condescending in a racist sort of way. At any rate, I’d say most readers in the 21st century choke on Stubb’s dinner. I don’t want to too hypocritical here, I mean I’m giggling when I read about the Town-Ho. We’ve still got a ways to go Mr. Douglas.
think you'll watch any of the half-dozen or so movies/tv series from the book?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounty
Nothing quite compares with this gem:
https://prod-images.tcm.com/Master-P...1956.17660.jpg
But somehow, I've got to watch the Barrymore version from 1930. He was considered by many the greatest actor of his time so that he must have made it worth while:
https://images.mubicdn.net/images/fi....jpg?size=800x
Couldn't find the 1930 talkie but did find the Sea Beast (silent, 1926) which was based on MD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-f7U3Co74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-f7U3Co74
Will watch later on ...
I believe the name "town ho" implies "homeward bound". In living up to its name, its crew is spared the unhappy fate suffered by the men of the Pequod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
I was thinking along the same lines as to what the name of the ship would spell for the crew. Captain Peleg sort of jovially mentions the tribe, but doesn't give his reasoning for naming the ship after it. Seems dark. Maybe it’s like telling an actor to “break a leg” right before they go on stage.
Speaking of ship names, the story of the Town-Ho is an odd one, and told in an odd way ...
This episode is so much like Billy Budd both of which deal with injustice, how one bears with it, and the "justice" that results. Innocent as he was, Billy Budd was doomed through an injustice that was no fault of his own. But Steelkilt is spared because of the revenge, the justice brought on by (of all things) Moby Dick who was an avenger of injustices! Indeed, it "seemed obscurely to involve with the whale a certain wondrous, inverted visitation of one of those so called judgments of God which at times are said to overtake men."
The chapter also deals with an age old conflict of free will vs determinism = are things fated or are they the result of one's willful actions? We are told, "the predestinated mate coming still closer {to the evil Radney} ... the fool had been branded for the slaughter by the gods ... A strange fatality pervades the whole career of these events, as if verily mapped out before the world itself was chartered."
The one thing both Billy Budd and Steelkilt had in common was that they were both good looking. Not sure why Melville gave us that description.
One of the most underrated songs in the Rock & Roll era:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMNGG_C-CA
I sailed an ocean, unsettled ocean
Through restful waters and deep commotion
Often frightened, unenlightened
Sail on, sail on sailor
I wrest the waters, fight Neptune's waters
Sail through the sorrows of life's marauders
Unrepenting, often empty
Sail on, sail on sailor
Caught like a sewer rat alone but I sail
Bought like a crust of bread, but oh do I wail
Seldom stumble, never crumble
Try to tumble, life's a rumble
Feel the stinging I've been given
Never ending, unrelenting
Heartbreak searing, always fearing
Never caring, persevering
Sail on, sail on, sailor
I work the seaways, the gale-swept seaways
Past shipwrecked daughters of wicked waters
Uninspired, drenched and tired
Wail on, wail on, sailor
Always needing, even bleeding
Never feeding all my feelings
Damn the thunder, must I blunder
There's no wonder all I'm under
Stop the crying and the lying
And the sighing and my dying
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Music wise, everything Brian Wilson touched turned to gold. He was an absolute perfectionist who would record, and re-record every song innumerable times until he got it right. There has also been a very spiritual dimension to his songs which have largely been overlooked. To me, the man is a National treasure.
"Sail on sailor" means, quoting Captain Kirk, to boldly go where no man has gone before. That despite all hardships and all obstructions, persist and go forth. The men of the Pequod and the Town Ho did just that.
Big Doors fan... enjoyed their sea shanty :)
Not a Beach Boys fan... in fact I didn't even know this was their song, but I will add this to the only other song I like of theirs: Good Vibrations :)
Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor
Woo-Hoo. If we’re doing music, there ain’t too much in this world that doesn’t remind me of a Grateful Dead tune.
Ship Of Fools:
https://youtu.be/CQP1NsbeYVg?si=W70wEV0paUNVAhff
As for the movie, I’ll probably skip it. After reading the book I’m almost always disappointed with a screen version. That said, I’ve already started noticing “Moby-isms” in film, TV, old hippy music, and generally in some pretty unusual places. Just the other day, for instance, an Ahab-type fellow cut me off on the I-5. Additionally the next chance I get I’ll visit a maritime museum. I’m going to be in Boston for a couple of days next week, so I thought I’d visit the USS Constitution.Quote:
Went to see the captain
Strangest I could find
Laid my proposition down
Laid it on the line
I won't slave for beggar's pay
Likewise gold and jewels
But I would slave to learn the way
To sink your ship of fools
i enjoy watching the movie first and reading the book afterwards. or, and i just did this recently with misery, going back and forth between the two.
i just got curious about the singer "moby" and found out his middle name is "melville."
"Richard Melville Hall was born September 11, 1965, in the neighborhood of Harlem in Manhattan, New York City. He is an only child of Elizabeth McBride (née Warner), a medical secretary, and James Frederick Hall, a chemistry professor... His father gave him the nickname Moby three days after his birth as his parents considered the name Richard too large for a newborn baby."
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailor STATELY
Gosh! You brought back some memories for me as we had a great touring homage in NYC to "Crystal Ship" going way back to the late 1970s. I tried to look it up online and was astonished to see that it is still on!
https://allevents.in/new%20york/crys...00728506391227
I just cannot believe this is still playing. GREAT song. GREAT group. Everyone should read this excellent book:
https://www.google.com/search?q=no+o...hrome&ie=UTF-8
No One Here Gets Out Alive ~ "No one here gets out alive" tells the story of Jim Morrison, from when he was a kid, moving around a lot with his family, due to his father being in the Navy, to when he was a teenager, becoming The Doors' singer and finally dying aged 27 in Paris.
This was probably the most criticized portion of the book. Often dismissed as a seemingly meaningless digression or pedantic departure from the novel, it adds a scientific dimension to the whale which up to now was viewed as a satanic menace from the depths of Hell. Further, it legitimizes Ishmael as a explorer of the universe, if that makes any sense. He brings up the Bible's Leviathan (Book of Job) and the matter as to whether a whale is a fish (perhaps a reference to Jonah and the big fish ~ see "Sermon" Ch 9).
Then he acts like a new Adam in the Garden of Eden by naming those creatures he sees in his world. In fact, the chapter is structured a lot like the Bible is in that it has Book 1 or Book 2, Chapter such-and-such, etc. He says Cetology is an incomplete science and that his knowledge or capabilities in it are limited. Then he ends the chapter by writing that his research and writing on the subject remain incomplete. Perhaps he suggests that more work or more adventures are to follow.
Seems to me that this chapter is a follow up to the book's opening where there is an Etymology and Extracts which include definitions and classifications. The fact that this follow up was included in Ch 32 rather than immediately after the opening was a wise one in that a reader would not have known of the whale's monstrous reputation until after reading the chapters that followed that opening.
In the beginning of the book, Ishmael tells us he was seeking adventure. That he was drawn by Fate to go ship hoy and that the reputed menace of the whale helped draw him to this perilous voyage. But it is also clear that he is seeking knowledge and his references to noted scholarly writings demonstrate this. The chapter does show that he has accumulated a considerable amount of knowledge though it is incomplete and he remains unfulfilled.
Ya know, I liked the Cetology chapter. I liked reading the cutting edge science of the day. The details and comparisons of whales might get a little tedious when they've got a sperm whale head hoisted up on one side of the ship and a right whale head on the other. In general though the information-type chapters act as break between the wild-action chapters or deep-philosophy chapters. Kinda gives the reader a break. Besides it's clear Melville is passionate about his subject, and it's always fun to listen to someone who's excited about what he's talking about, even if the subject is a little nerdy, even if it's something I care nothing about. It's just fun to be carried away by somebody else's enthusiasm. When Ishmael starts going on and on about whales, I can't help but to be reminded of John C. Reilly in What's Eating Gilbert Grape going on and on about the Burger Barn.
Sancho I just posted on the old "sport desk" thread. I hope you'll take a look.
but I wanted to share something from there, here, in hope that more people (all five or six of us) might see it:
I think one of the absolute best things ive recently discovered on YouTube is a channel called "like stories of old" and I think anyone who likes stories would do really well to check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/@LikeStoriesofOld
the one im watching now is "Venturing into Sacred Space | Archetype of the Magician"
I recently watched "Lighting the Beacons, and Other Perfect Movie Metaphors" and it was fantastic.
Sounds fun. I'll check it out. It does seem like there's only a handful of people on this website any more. Honestly though seems like forums are atrophying all over the web. I'll go on forums seeking info on car maintenance or dendrology or some darned thing and there's a few folks who post things regularly and then there's a bunch of lurkers seeking answers to specific questions. On this website it's usually folks looking for answers to homework questions. Fair warning here — anybody looking for help on their homework, El Sancho was a C- student. And that was on a good day.
Yes, well, so anyway, speaking of the cutting-edge science of the day in Moby Dick, I was sort of wondering if Ishmael would ever get around to the phrenology of whales. And, WHOOP, dere it is, Chapter 80, The Nut.
Thanks for the link, bounty,I'm going to check it out.
Forums are drying out indeed Sancho probably because of the social nets. I think the homeworkers of Litnet have also wandered away. What I sometimes see is spammers, very eager to enter the forum.
As for old Ismael, I would like to have contributed more, but I forgot almost all, including the humorous early chapters.
I hope you guys will indeed visit "like stories of old." I find myself wishing the guy would put all his narration into a book.
here's the book im planning to get that have inspired some of the videos:
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-he...6&idiq=1004430
Sancho---have you been to boston before? theres a fair amount of revolutionary war stuff you might enjoy visiting.