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I only just read this line, and I read the line on Alcohol as well, and I have to say that I'm very interested in what's being said here. I need to have a long think about it though, despite all the work I got, and then I can post what I think about human happiness...I think it deserves more than a few minutes thought, right?
By the way, is there room for a purely non-Christian/religious perspective on the topic, or am I going to be heckled as an infidel? ;)
Hell, I don't care... you can give any perspective you like.... as for heckling... I don't control that... but I do do a fair share of it myself...
-but who cares if they get heckled? We are just a bunch of faceless names on the internet.
Both? I've heard this argued from both christian and non-christian viewpoints, but being a christian myself I'll only give that one for now. I think that there is a mixture of both good and evil in humanity as is, good because of what God put there himself (made in the image of God etc), evil because what we've got now is the fallen version of the originally created good, which leads to sin (original or not) etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
Yes (although I do think that circumstances, and our response to them also play a role), but what do you mean by best circumstances available? Or are you thinking more best circumstances possible? I think definitions of that would be very subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
I do not believe in human nature being 'good' or 'evil'. 'Good' and 'evil' are categories created to divide actions into 'helpful for the community' and 'harmful to the community'. Man is not moral or immoral, but a-moral. Society is built on morals, and therefore man is socialized, he learns the morality of his society, so that the society can continue to exist. This happens through schooling, through education, in the family, in institutions, in daily life. In time the pressures to conform are interiorized(which is a good thing btw, we wouldn't want everyone making up his own morals, his own society, his own rules, without regard to others). And eventually we are so convinced that these rules are right, that we carry them out ourselves, that we become 'moral beings'. Changes are possible, of course, because we still have something called will and we still have a mind of our own.
ASA, I actually never got around to checking out those scriptures..pretty busy right now. But I appreciate the response Shea, and I will definitely try to check them out. I actually still don't know what I think about it, but i guess that's not the topic of discussion anymore...lol. I'd have to say that the inclination to either be happy with your circumstances or find fault with them really has to do with the disposition of the individual. Some people are tirelessly optimistic, and find a reason to be thankful for everything in their life, and some will never be satisfied. It's perfectly natural to always want more out of life, though. As for the question of whether man is inherently evil or good, I'd have to agree with Eloise...if we were purely good, life wouldn't be quite as hard as it is, would it? :) We'd have this underlying spark of "goodness" that would come to the rescue every time we were tempted or tried. On the other hand, man cannot be innately evil, because, as Eloise said, we were created in God's image. And, once again, individual perceptions of life also factor in...
Eloise: so do you think some people are born good, some evil, and some a mix? Do I have it completely wrong?
Chrisvosje: consider yourself officially heckled by my following statement. "BLA! BLA! BLA! YOUR WRONG BLA BLA IM RIGHT BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA!"
:D
Seriously, I do disagree with your statements.... while they are fun to think about, I do not believe that they withstand the test of logic. If good and evil were merely categories put into place so that a society can exist more... peacefully (?) ... then it would not be wrong to kill someone who does not benefit society... For example, if the definitions of right or wrong were merely : that which helps or harms society... then I shouldn't have a troubled mind if I drove to Los Angelas and killed the hundreds of homeless people there.... well... maybe the part about the troubled mind isn't part of the point.... and I might not logically be able to draw THAT conclusion.... maybe I should simply say that it would not be morally wrong to kill all those people according to your definition.
Waxmephilosophical: Man was created in God's image... but was Man's character or nature created in God's image? If it was, wasn't that ruined after the fall of man?
sorry about this... I accidently did something weird... hit quote instead of edit or something... and now I can't delete this....
oh... and the part about killing the homeless people... please note it was purley hipothetical.
You have it completely wrong! I think everybody is born a mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
By saying that man was created in God's image I mean that something created in his image cannot be purely evil...it's not possible.
Eloise: pardon me... thank you for making your view very clear. :-)
Waxmephilosophical: I realize that is what you mean... I am questioning whether or not you have a valid argument. According to the Bible, man was created in God's image. He then fell-dooming the future members of the human race to have a sin-nature. You know... if we are going to go the Biblical route (as you seem to be), then human nature is to be evil. However, if you do not claim to believe in the infallibility of scripture, your argument makes more sense. From your current and previous arguments, however, I have assumed that you do not believe that the Bible can be wrong... If this is true... then you are contradicting yourself
I want the emoticon that is a combination between :D :) and :-?
Yes, of course we have a sinful nature, but I don't believe that it is purely and solely evil. I've yet to see how I'm contradicting myself. And no, I do not believe that the Bible can be wrong...do you? :rolleyes:
To begin, I wrote that post after two hours sleep, so it is justifiably a little foggy. Why should it bother anybody?
Also, shouldn't somebody as well versed in logic( as you seem to consider yourself to be) know better than to use ad hominem arguments. They are completely irrelevant to the discussion and prove that the user is uncivil.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :D :evil: :evil: :D :evil: :evil: :D :evil: 8) :evil: ;) :evil:
I am only writing this because the forum won't let me delete my messages. Perhaps if I swore a little (with incorrect spelling, just in case), it will delete if for me. fuc fuc fuc fuc
I could correct a number of spelling mistakes you made (while you were, I presume, fully awake and had double-checked) but I have probably proven myself immature enough already (with this post).
You are too hostile. Despite the anonymity of the 'net, you are still communicating with other people.
hmm... I hope I didn't offend you, waxmephilosophical, because that was in no way my intent.
I have always looked upon "sin nature" as inherently, 100% evil. (as in as bad as satan... if the sins of two different types of beings can be compared... another topic of discussion maybe?)
Therefore, I assumed that you were contradicting yourself, maxmephilosophical, when you believe that the Bible is completely true --
(as do I... and I wonder what the eye-roll means... I was not patronizing you, merely questioning for the sake of obtaining personal information... not to try to get you to think about anything...)-- ... er anyways... you believe the BIble is completley true yet say that human beings cannot be purely evil. I had not realized that this (what is BIblical on this matter)was a debateable topic.
lol CelestialBeastie... you make me laugh (whether rightly or not). "all men are born evil, and fall short of the grace of God" WHERE ON EARTH DID YOU DIG THAT ONE UP? LOL! Am I being extremely ignorant? I have never seen THAT verse before.... Where is it written? Perhaps you meant, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 NIV
Compared to God, all men are evil, yes... Isn't it strange how sometimes the most simple questions have the most complicated answers? I love the quote "every question has a simple, easy, and wrong answer" (I got the wording and perhaps the meaning wrong)... Anyways.... enough excuses... the question was, "what is evil"... since I am no great theologion, and am not inspired in either my thinking or my spelling... I will give you a simple, and probably wrong answer. I think that evil is the absense of the righteousness of God.
",since they would have something they" um???? gonna finish, there?
:evil: normally, this emoticon is used to show great anger or hate... This part makes me smile the most.
so you are not personally fond of arguing from the Bible... "because it can be interpreted a number of ways..." Yes it can... but when they are mutuall exclusive, only one can be correct (I am mr obvious today)... anyway {is it anyway or anyways} ... anywho... lol... I would rather know I am wrong in grammer than be unsure... lol... anywho... "... since I am not christian, I question its validity."-CelestialBeastie
ok... question its validity! please!...
:D
You don't think humans are inherently good or evil, but can be pulled either way.... ok.... it is an interesting opinion.... but then you go into some rather... vague, probably misleading, and overall crappy examples... You do not elaborate; you do nothing but throw out a bunch of barely connected words and call it good. Then, you chalk up any deficiencies to your 'laziness'... Now, if you wish to be listened to, then perhaps you better make more sense?
Ok... now that I am finished with commenting on your horrible examples, I will not turn my never-ending stream of words upon your (satisfactory) example with Mother Tereasa (sp????). With that example, yes you could say that people are somewhere in the middle and can be swayed either way... But that example could also be used to support my position... Mother Tereasa fled towards God when she saw her human nature was evil. Then, with the help of God, she defied her human nature. Please note that it is not my opinion that human nature can only be defied when someone runs toward God.
Ok... now we are at the good part of your post... "killing all the homeless people would be a wrong act whether or not you believed that morality was a social construct (along with the concepts of good and evil). it acts against the basic drive that says that taking human lives is wrong (which benefits all members)."
I agree that it would be wrong. I am unsure whether or not I agree as to why it is wrong. What people believe has nothing to do with the actual truth. Therefore, even if people believed that morality was a social construct, if it in all actuality wasn't, it would be wrong to kill a homeless person simply because he is useless to society.
Then, Celestial Beastie, you begin talking about a "basic drive". What is this basic drive, and what is it's purpose? If you rule out God as a posibility (as in ruling out -> there is an absolute truth and absolute right and our conciences pull us toward 'what we ought to do')... then what could be the purpose of this drive? Is the purpose to save the human race from itself and from total obliteration?
If that is so, the purpose of existence is existence. I suppose that if I am wrong, that might very well be true.
So I guess I am having muddled thoughts on everything today, especially this basic drive business... are you saying that this basic drive is merely a security mesure (SP is terrible) implanted into our 'instinct'? Is that your opinion, or do I have it wrong? Hm... I started off ridiculing a post that made little sense, and ended up making another one...
The quote you were reffering to is a good one... I don't remember how it went either... it was something like "when they came for the Jews, I did nothing, for I was not Jewish. When they came for the Gypsies, I did nothing, for I was not a Gypsy. When they came for the protestants, I did nothing, for I was not a protestant. When they came for me, I cried for help, but there was no one left to help me"
On the subject of happiness: strange as it sounds, sometimes I enjoy life the most while I am sad, depressed, or in a state of meloncholy. When I am happy... Life seems more hollow.
You in no way offended me...I think you're used to offending people, so you naturally assume that everything you say is offensive...I find it hard to get offended by something that somebody types in a literature forum...call me crazy! :D Oh, and the eye roll was not an eye roll - that's always looked more to me like a look of wondering. So, used in context, it meant "Do you believe that the bible can be wrong, I wonder?" I would never, ever want someone to misread my emoticon usage...does this clear it up? :D :D
for those of you confused by my last post, it is only because celestial beastie edited the post before that.
Ad hominem! LOL! I was not insulting you to further my opinion... I am not completely sure that I am correct... I have no wish to make others believe as I do in this matter.... yet... :-)
Secondly, I was not specifically insulting you, only your words... small detail...
I called your examples crappy (they were).... and that is pretty much it... I never insulted you personally....
"You are too hostile. Despite the anonymity of the 'net, you are still communicating with other people."
Yep, I am communicating with people.... but they are all evil in nature and should be bad-mouthed anyway... {anyway, anyways????} (that was a joke by the way).... ha. ha. ha. (that is my 'oh God, that was lame' laughter)....
PS Editing your posts can be considered impolite... even if you are editing something out that should be edited out.... It is impolite because it makes posts that come afterward confusing.
When I screw up, say something stupid, AND want to change it... I usually put a
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Please disreguard this post because the author of it was being stupid
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thing in it... By the way... ignore the disreguard sign.... lol....
ok... on to you waxmephilosophical.... You are absolutely correct. I am used to accidently offending thin-skinned people.... I am glad to hear that you have thicker skin... as we all should.
:rolleyes: Hmm.... I never thought about this emoticon being a wondering thing.... but since when you click on it, it says : r o l l : I assumed that it was an eye roll...
thx for being clear....