Pfffft, who else do you need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
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Pfffft, who else do you need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
Heh heh. Joni Mitchell just called and said you two are quits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clopin
Well, I do not think he is that ingenuous to overlook them. All literatura was oral at that time - It wasnt just lyrical poetry that could be sung. Heck, Rhyme of Ancient Mariner was sung by Iron Maiden and it is not lyrical. I think overall his point was that people listening to music are not reading poetry, no more than someone watching a movie adaptation of Shakespeare is really reading Shakespeare, so we cannot "save" poetry by claiming people read poetry all the time because there is lyric in the MTV. It would be if the favored method of consume of pop music was reading the lyrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
My friend is a big Iron Maiden fan. He likes their song The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. I told him it's based on my favorite poem. He wouldn't read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Don't make me get ugly. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2lTB-UVvsQuote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Yeah, I do not think Iron Maiden can be praised for improving the number of Coleridge's fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Well, it does not necessarily take to any point about reading or watching plays. Both are different experiences, as they should be. However, you are just getting confusing. Why saying "popular music", if the word popular can only cause confusion? What is popular music? Rock and Roll? Samba? Bolero? And what is not popular music? Opera? And lyric poetry? Poetry is confusing word that can mean a lot of things. But listening to music is not the same as reading poems. There is no mistake here. You may spend your day listening to Beyonce vs. Shakira and sing out loud their hippness, but you are not reading more poems. Even if you watch Dead Poets Society a hundred times, you haven't read Walt Whitman a hundred times.Quote:
This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.
Oh, but it is oral expression, so close to the text. Yes, but just like the plays experiences, Oral experiences are different from Reading experience. Listening works differently. The forms of poems created in a oral context are not the same created in modern literary societies when the poem would be printed and rarely exposed to public audience. If our poems start to be more oral and often only combined with music, the product will different.
Look, you're the one who mentioned MTV. I've never seen MTV, not even once. I said popular music to simplify what you yourself were talking about. Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
But that is the point. I never mention MTV as popular music. Just as a place where pop music (pop music is more specific than popular music) is played. I was very specific. Anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
Again, when you use the broad definition of poetry, there is no point arguing if people are reading more or less poetry, because we will find poetry everywhere, in movies, in a football game, in the sunset or in a beautiful woman. The question only makes sense if it is about the specific writen forms we classify as poetry (we cannot even include Joyce's Finnegans Wake as it is prose). We are talking about poems, so the lyrics of a song, unless printed for reading - like Bob Dylan's books - does not count here.Quote:
Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.
Well, it is not about monopoly. Listening music is not reading poetry. Simple as that. It is another medium and another artistic representation.Quote:
I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.
It is a movie, they recite Walt Whitman's elegy to Lincoln in the movie.Quote:
I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.
Actually, words have meaning. But I have no idea how you cannot understand the difference between artistic genre and experiences after you talked about the differences beween watching a Shakespeare's play and reading the play. In the first case, despite the experience with shakespeare, you are not reading anything. At the end of the day the statistic will say your friend read no book, you read 1. If I listen to Bob Dylan, i will have read no poem. The experience may be a poetic experience, but will be no reading.Quote:
Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.
My area has a great local scene for live readings, and small conventions. Tis where I go.
Shakira is a hugely popular Latin musician with a following mostly in South America. Check out her song "Waka Waka" the official 2010 FIFA cup song. It has over 900 million views on youtube. Some of her other hits were "Can't Remember to Forget You" with Rihanna and "Hips Don't Lie" with Wyclef Jean. Sheesh, I thought I was out of touch with young people and popular culture.
I'm using the Aristotelian distinction of lyric poetry as opposed to epic and dramatic poetry. That is hardly a catch all for life experience (though granted, a pretty girl is like a melody).Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Bad lyric poetry and good lyric poetry are both lyric poetry. It's not a categorical difference. And as far as the written word goes, the lyrics to the songs on Revolver (which were not written on the back of the album) were no less lyric poetry than those on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band (which were).Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Thanks just the same. It's nice that a cup got its own song, though. And an official song, too! I used to have a cup like that. It played Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when I tipped it back to drink. It didn't last long, though. Beauty never does.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Gee, she does sound popular. I'll bet Bouncé gets viewed a lot, too. Popular girls often do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Somehow I manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
There's nothing more fun than lighting a fuse and speed-walking away. Thread burned quick.
You can use the light your hand to play with shadows on the wall. There, a bunny!
Oh, on the contrary, it was a very interesting conversation. Thanks, Nikonani. :)