And you're special because you can see through the rest of the self loathing crowd like the rest of us?
And you're special because you can see through the rest of the self loathing crowd like the rest of us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanB
I loved King Lear... thought Hamlet to be either Shakespeare's best work, or worst... ah well, a misspent Summer studying Shakespeare in Cambridge long ago didn't help matters.:)
Whose truth?.. pursue it if you must; Between our birth and death we may touch understanding, As a moth brushes a window with its wing. -Christopher Fry
Imagine how life appears to a cat... a butterfly and an axe-murderer are of equal interest, are they not?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanB
That's why I like cats over dogs, they seem to live in a less ambiguous universe... if you get my meaning.:)
Peace does not exist but in theory at least we can create it, which I think would have more to do with self preservation than self loathing. Perhaps this connects to the pursuit of God and Truth which seems to me to have more to do with humility than the arrogance you speak ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Iain Sparrow
Humility?.. seems to me that believing one's self was created by God, and if all ends well in that pursuit, secures a position in Heaven for eternity is almost as 'unhumble' as it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by russellb
Not only I, but everyone else was created by God and my consciousness is not the centre of the universe.
Incidentally, Jews have only a few indirect references to heaven in their scriptures and Hindus certainly believe in God but not in heaven.
It strikes me that breaking in on this thread to proclaim your atheism is just as tactful as a fundamentalist evangelical shouting out in a gay bar "Do you accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour?"
uh yeah, your consciousness may not be the centre of the universe, but as you're a follower of that entity at the centre of the universe, nay, that entity that rules the centre and every corner of the universe... you can hardly claim to be humble while riding on the coattails of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanB
And no need for an evangelical preacher to venture into a gay bar... gay folks are destined for Hell anyways, or so your religion proclaims.
I've been to bed with another man for the past forty years and I go to church every Sunday, where the vicar has a civil partner and both the curates are gay. Atheism strikes me as very straight.
And some dim evangelical might think it is his/her duty to witness to the unreedemed. You are doing just the same thing.
Hey - jumping in on this late; all I am experiencing right now is total joy and love, and. . in this conversation - only comes to me as a pleasntry, with no stake but much gladness. .
it's just. . this feeling is so lovely - and
Johnathan, I love you brother!
That is so - just, that was beautiful.
One thing all religions teach in one way or another is non-attachment, or in the Western sense stoicism. . . definitely it's always easier when a discussion is between two or several people besides oneself. .
The reason for non-attachment would definitely seem to be that if neither point - if nothing really, is either jerking me around by attachment to it, or aversion -
in other words, if the mind is not attached to objects, then no objects that appear will jerk the mind around -
And, that's just one principle in the whole schebang- a useful one, but only partially as are so many others, such as peace, wisdom, clarity and millions of things, also make up life
Anyway - even when I got to the point where I was (and still am) able to have a discussion with someone about anything - or debate - with only good will . .
I have found it's almost illimitably better, usually, to refrain, because even if I am able to discuss such points without any bother - sometimes debates can be unpleasant -
and generally nothing that is said that brings unpleasantness also brings understanding or friendship -
And it is indeed understanding which is the only true goal of any inquiry into life or the matter -
and this is why, as my father always would share or mention, that to win an argument is impossible. Or if - just if, you manage somehow to convince someone, after years or minutes of ear-wrangling, that your side of viewing the matter is correct, and get them to grudgingly admit you were correct; you very likely may have lost a friend - and, further, along down the line they will likely simply go back to their previous idea.
This along with so many other things indicate that persuasion isn't desirable - and yet, shouldn't we? if we have a good idea that is true? and that answer would be yes. . it woudl seem.
Just one of the beauties and complexities of life.
And I know that my new way of writing, with long-ish points and short paragraphs may sometimes seem different; still I think it is just fine, especially when at the beginning and end, I am often or sometimes wishing peace and happiness, and many if not all of the points in the middle are completely neutral, I think it is okay! :-)
Hehe.
Anyway, gently and kindly and with much glad humour and well-wishing, my humble opinion is Jonathan seems completely right with this, and also as I said, your point as well as your way of expressing it, seem quite lovely JonathanB.
Oh, and by the by, as a (nearly) lifelong scholar of Hinduism and Zen and a few others, I would humbly correct you on the point of Hindus believing in heaven. They believe in many, essentially infinite heaven realms, they just believe that staying in those realms isn't a good idea, as it just burns up good karma - whilst enjoying heavenly pleasures - the reason they don't believe one should stay there is because while staying in the material realm at all, one is fluid, sometimes going higher and sometimes going lower -
Oh I should have said also that the highest heavens are still in the material realm - and those are all spiritual beings, very good and elevated - angels or demigods, called devas - but yeah - I guess you get the picture.
So in their view - beyond the highest material heaven, then you enter the spiritual realm, and there, there is no chance of falling again, as everything is eternal.
I hope I haven't gone too far into that description, for your taste, dear friend! Just got off into the answer a bit. At least it's neutral :-)
Peace, all ^.^ (that's a Korean smiley!)
Iain, things like peace may not exist in the absolute sense of everywhere for everyone all of the time, but there is such a thing as relative peace, and it's surely well worth striving for. We will never know the whole truth about life, the universe and everything, but to give up on the positives of life like peace, goodness, mercy, justice, whatever just because evil exists and always will seems rather cynical, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Sparrow
Wow! As a non-hindu living in India, Hinduism seems to me something incredibly intricate, complicated, almost incomprehensible but kind of beautiful.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
I am really happy to hear it. :)Quote:
all I am experiencing right now is total joy and love, and. . in this conversation - only comes to me as a pleasntry, with no stake but much gladness.
Gosh, NikolaiI, thank you. You're a sweetie.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
In fact I should have shut up about my private life. I should have just pointed out that some dim but well meaning evangelicals might well think that active gays are going to hell and hope to stop them. Iain is just as in yer face as they would be.
I saw you were online that day, and I was actually hoping you'd post! :-) Pleasant coincidence, hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by mona amon
I had actually forgotten you are Christian, Mona! Although as you said it, I intsantly remembered. :)
That's very kind of you, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanB
I wouldn't necessarily say that, although where I am from, people are as a rule, very open, very kind, warm-hearted, and a bit heroic. I have had to tone down the open-heart when I go North or East, for instance, just a bit. . I often end up back in my home state, however, as they are so warm.
Ah, the way you said it was beautifully illustrated, and that's good to get a point across.
Christianity is not a cult, and so it can be transformed - just take a look at Unitarian Universalism, for instance, for one, if you'd like to see a progressive. One of my ancestors, Joseph Prisetly, had a hand in founding it (or at least, Unitarianism, its predecessor). I don't believe in creating more sects but I am fairly certain there is a worldwide, upward movement out of prejudice and towards enlightenment.
The one thing I would not agree with in any religion is when they put someone above others. . in Presbyterianism, there is the idea of the prisethood of all believers; and while there are still imbalances there - as probably almost any human group - I don't think you have many preachers with a 40 million or 140 million dollar net worth flying around in private jets - to me that is wrong. And the solution would seem to be - place all faith in oneself, and in nature, and in God, and find that calm center from which, when we act, we are truly free.