does religion/God give people a voice?

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

The church I sometimes attend has a female minister and other churches of its kind have homosexual ministers. It is also one of the very largest church denominations in my country.

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I did note there were exceptions, and I'm presuming you belong to the United Church, which makes up 11% of Canada's christian adherents. That's a high percentage to belong to a liberal church, and I imagine Canada is an exception, being more liberal as a country.

The numbers speak for themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ber_of_members

Liberal churches are a very small minority across the world, so you might call it a generalisation, but it applies to the vast majority of all churches.

Yes, Buddhism scores a pass, but I'm definitely in the camp that doesn't count Buddhism as a religion anyway: http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

I did note there were exceptions, and I'm presuming you belong to the United Church, which makes up 11% of Canada's christian adherents. That's a high percentage to belong to a liberal church, and I imagine Canada is an exception, being more liberal as a country.

The numbers speak for themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ber_of_members

Liberal churches are a very small minority across the world, so you might call it a generalisation, but it applies to the vast majority of all churches.

Yes, Buddhism scores a pass, but I'm definitely in the camp that doesn't count Buddhism as a religion anyway: http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

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But how can I look upon religion as a negative thing when that liberal church is the only real personal experience with organized religion I've had? My elderly grandmother believes that she is going to enjoy everlasting happiness by the side of her loving God when she passes. It is hard to deny that the message most apparent in the New Testament is one of highly estimable moral import. A lot of Christians actually do feel behooved to go off and do service to suffering strangers in foreign lands.

My gut reaction to most organized religion is indeed negative. Christianity has historically been a force for evil as much as it has been one for good. But on an anecdotal interpersonal basis, and taking into consideration the innumerable acts of kindness and charity carried out by faithfully devoted religious persons today and in the past, I can't simply say "religion is bad," like I can say racism or ignorance or starvation are bad.

So you choose to ignore your gut reaction, ignore the facts and try to find a church that won't compromise your goodness.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

But how can I look upon religion as a negative thing when that liberal church is the only real personal experience with organized religion I've had?

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I haven't been a member of either the Catholic or Southern Baptist churches, but I can still see that they're misogynistic, homophobic entities.

Ditto Scientology, (not entirely a religion either) Jehovah's Witnesses or the Westboro church. I don't believe personal experience is necessary to be able to categorise an entity or concept. I've never experienced war, but I think it's a bad thing.

My elderly grandmother believes that she is going to enjoy everlasting happiness by the side of her loving God when she passes. It is hard to deny that the message most apparent in the New Testament is one of highly estimable moral import. A lot of Christians actually do feel behooved to go off and do service to suffering strangers in foreign lands.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

... I can't simply say "religion is bad," like I can say racism or ignorance or starvation are bad.

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I agree with you, which is why I'm always careful to allow exceptions. Believe it or not, I've had some serious flame wars with other atheists arguing from my belief that not all religion is bad. Just most of it.

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Originally Posted by cacian

i think you will find that religions apart from telling others to commit heinous crimes it also tells the majority to bury their heads in the sand. a bit like a monk. he or she lives apart and in obscurity and no one knows what goes on behind their close doors. the role of a monk is literally to live securely and remotely from everyday life. there is no real practical reason to why they are and frankly the mind boggles.why so many men or women congregate together in such secular manner and in such unnatural way in the name of a god. it is spooky.
i believe religion also encourages the majority to care for no one but one being.
religious people are intellectually inactive ie dormant in that their mind is solely to serve and pray for a being that they do not see. they have no real intellectual input towards the global society. a bit like a dormatt. they just lay about unthinking. it is off putting.
religion's primary purpose is to teach people to become lazy intellectually.

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You think so? There is certainly are many intellectually sophisticated theologians out there. I'm not saying their ideas are correct or true necessarily, but it certainly requires that they can be quite . . . inventive.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

So you choose to ignore your gut reaction, ignore the facts and try to find a church that won't compromise your goodness.

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Or a church that enhances his goodness and matches his values.

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You think so? There is certainly are many intellectually sophisticated theologians out there. I'm not saying their ideas are correct or true necessarily, but it certainly requires that they can be quite . . . inventive.

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I am not sure I could agree with a theologist being sophisticated and inventive. I will need examples to compare. :)
the whole point of religion is that is that it does not allow for changes. the reason religion is is that it is controlling and uninventive. there is no listing to one another as far as religion is concerned. there is a lot of listening to it. it is a one way street.
what religion does is create parameters that works for it and not against it. atheism is because of religion for example. without it atheism does not exist. atheism is conflict and that is what religion wants. conflict between parties.

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Originally Posted by cacian

I am not sure I could agree with a theologist being sophisticated and inventive. I will need examples to compare. :)
the whole point of religion is that is that it does not allow for changes. the reason religion is is that it is controlling and uninventive. there is no listing to one another as far as religion is concerned. there is a lot of listening to it. it is a one way street.
what religion does is create parameters that works for it and not against it. atheism is because of religion for example. without it atheism does not exist. atheism is conflict and that is what religion wants. conflict between parties.

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Why aren't Christians Jews? Why aren't Jews all pagans worshipping the Canaanite pantheon? Why are there 41,000 different versions of Christianity according to Pew Forum?

In relation to your ideas, it would seem to me that all these questions can be seen two ways, depending on how you look at them.

1) They can be viewed as data points supporting your assertion that "religion . . . does not allow for changes," and therefore people need to create new versions of their religion to incorporate changes.

or

2) we see that religions do in fact change and evolve over time by the fact that a few religions have spawned entirely new religions altogether and many different variants of the same religion, challenging the idea that religion does not allow for changes.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Why aren't Christians Jews? Why aren't Jews all pagans worshipping the Canaanite pantheon? Why are there 41,000 different versions of Christianity according to Pew Forum?

In relation to your ideas, it would seem to me that all these questions can be seen two ways, depending on how you look at them.

1) They can be viewed as data points supporting your assertion that "religion . . . does not allow for changes," and therefore people need to create new versions of their religion to incorporate changes.

or

2) we see that religions do in fact change and evolve over time by the fact that a few religions have spawned entirely new religions altogether and many different variants of the same religion, challenging the idea that religion does not allow for changes.

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Excellent. We need more truths like these two.

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Originally Posted by cacian

politics does
education does ish
literature does

institutions such as these democratic in nature allow for certain voices to be heard and expressions to be formed but does religion hear or is it just heard?

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Peace be on you.
In relgion, God hears us, we have to hear the god too :

"And when My servants ask thee about Me, say: I am near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way.’ (Holy Quran, Ch 2, v187)

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Originally Posted by YALASH

....I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me....

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How come he didn't hear the prayers of the children attacked with lethal gas in Syria, or the millions in refugee camps?

Was there a football game on that day?

It is not for us to question these things. I'm sure its all part of gods plan and doesn't that make everything just dandy? I don't know what abused kids have to complain about with such knowledge!

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Originally Posted by Delta40

It is not for us to question these things. I'm sure its all part of gods plan and doesn't that make everything just dandy? I don't know what abused kids have to complain about with such knowledge!

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Isn't it funny how god's plans can be hidden away and known only to him/her, but that's perfectly ok, while Satan, who is at least honest about his intentions, is a bad guy.

Yes and one can confess their sins, receive forgiveness and commit them again. Fly-bys to heaven scheme. There lacks a real accountability for many terrible acts where others suffer while a priest tries to save a soul so it doesn't go to hell.

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Originally Posted by cacian

politics does
education does ish
literature does

institutions such as these democratic in nature allow for certain voices to be heard and expressions to be formed but does religion hear or is it just heard?

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All of the items listed, even religion, give people a voice. You can't state that religion doesn't and give a free pass to politics, education, and literature. I can think of instances in all of those realms where ideas were squashed or that oppression occurred. Humans are prone to make mistakes and given our nature of that, it is nature to conclude that we will mar to some extent, those things which do give us a voice. Religion is inspirational and can bring the best out in people. I've witnessed a service and seen a couple married 50 years struggle to kneel for communion, I've also seen a faithful couple struggle with the health of a terminal child, or the loss of a loved one. You can look for the exceptions in things, or the reality. I understand the bad that is done in the name of religion, but there is more to it if you are willing.

The only religion that doesn't listen is the religion of...Atheism. If they listened to all things of creation, really listened, they would hear God.