Gender

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Originally Posted by Calidore

I believe one forum poster, who's only been sporadic lately, has said she's transgender. If she sees this and cares to discuss it, I think her input on the physical and psychological aspects of before and after such a change would be fascinating.

And just to put everyone on the same page and forestall semantic disagreements, Merriam-Webster has the following:

Sex:
1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures
2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females

Gender:
2 a : sex <the feminine gender>
b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

So could it safely be said that gender itself is biological, but gender roles would be cultural and psychological?

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It's a tricky word to work with because it has undergone a major shift in meaning in the last 40 years. Prior to the 1950s gender was entirely a grammatical term, e.g. feminine, masculine, and neuter nouns in German. Gender as synonymous with sex has slipped into general usage since the 1980s, but the social sciences still try to maintain a distinction between sex and gender. An important distinction to keep in mind is that only people have gender, we don't normally describe animals as masculine or feminine in appearance (and when we do we don't usually mean that in association with their sex, just as nouns have genders in some languages).

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

It would be fairly disingenuous to claim that there are "a couple of minor endocrine secretions" when we know that there are some huge differences in those secretions.

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To use the word "huge" is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion. Women produce testosterone and men produce estrogen and progesterone, and the amount of each hormone varies depending on the individual you're looking at. What's more, out of all of the hormones in the human body, the variation in three hormones seems pretty minor to me.

Also, you can tell how important something is to a system by messing with it. If you inhibit or assist testosterone, progesterone or estrogen in a man or woman the affects on the individual's personality aren't extraordinarily pronounced. On the other hand if you mess with a person's frontal cortex, even if their cognative ability remains intact their personality often changes dramatically. I'm used to dealing with people (even on litnet) who say things like "women are different from us because they don't have testosterone [sic]," while completely ignoring the role of the vastly complex human brain, which varies from person to person regardless of biological sex in unimaginable ways. Taking this into consideration, how could sex be the overriding influence in determining personality (as it's often considered)?

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

Gender neutrality is not the answer.

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If the question is something specifically regarding gender, like "how does gender within a social context influence one's mental health," then obviously you'd have to acknowledge gender to have this discussion, but I don't see why we shouldn't try to approach our daily interactions from a gender neutral position.

I feel that the unintentional consequence of this approach would be the grand compromising of anything overly "masculine" or overly "feminism" in order to maintain harmony. The "second wave feminists" desired to achieve gender equality by "being men" - which acknowledges some inferiority in women. You don't need to eliminate the qualities of masculine or feminine to embrace both equally.

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I don't see why we shouldn't try to approach our daily interactions from a gender neutral position

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I agree that gender doesn't have to underscore everything we do and everyone we meet. If I go to get a coffee every morning I don't care if the barista is male or female - this has no bearing at all on this part of my day. I think it is an infinitesimal minority who will go into a coffee shop and refuse to be served by a man/woman.

My argument against gender neutrality is not how we see/treat others, but how we see/treat ourselves. There is nothing wrong we being masculine/feminine and we should not have to sacrifice it because of intolerant *******s.

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

I feel that the unintentional consequence of this approach would be the grand compromising of anything overly "masculine" or overly "feminism" in order to maintain harmony. The "second wave feminists" desired to achieve gender equality by "being men" - which acknowledges some inferiority in women. You don't need to eliminate the qualities of masculine or feminine to embrace both equally.



I agree that gender doesn't have to underscore everything we do and everyone we meet. If I go to get a coffee every morning I don't care if the barista is male or female - this has no bearing at all on this part of my day. I think it is an infinitesimal minority who will go into a coffee shop and refuse to be served by a man/woman.

My argument against gender neutrality is not how we see/treat others, but how we see/treat ourselves. There is nothing wrong we being masculine/feminine and we should not have to sacrifice it because of intolerant *******s.

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Agreed. I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between masculinity and femininity (which are not synonymous with male and female), but at the same time respect a person's basic rights regardless (in that sense you treat them as gender neutral).

Completely agree with Charles. Of course there's maleness and femaleness, and the two are pretty different. It's nothing to do with intelligence, ability, behavior or personality. It is something much more basic and innate than that, and difficult to actually put your finger on. The difference is obviously biological - physical, hormonal etc, but it is a difference all the same, and a difference that is silly to ignore. Why on earth do transgender people have such problems with gender identity if there's no difference between the two?

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"there is no gender identity behind the expressions of gender... identity is performatively constituted by the very 'expressions' that are said to be its results." - Judith Butler quoted in the OP

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Balderdash. What if these 'expressions of gender' are really the important and only difference? She seems to have tried so hard to confuse others that she ended up confusing herself.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

To use the word "huge" is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion. Women produce testosterone and men produce estrogen and progesterone, and the amount of each hormone varies depending on the individual you're looking at. What's more, out of all of the hormones in the human body, the variation in three hormones seems pretty minor to me.

Also, you can tell how important something is to a system by messing with it. If you inhibit or assist testosterone, progesterone or estrogen in a man or woman the affects on the individual's personality aren't extraordinarily pronounced. On the other hand if you mess with a person's frontal cortex, even if their cognative ability remains intact their personality often changes dramatically. I'm used to dealing with people (even on litnet) who say things like "women are different from us because they don't have testosterone [sic]," while completely ignoring the role of the vastly complex human brain, which varies from person to person regardless of biological sex in unimaginable ways. Taking this into consideration, how could sex be the overriding influence in determining personality (as it's often considered)?



If the question is something specifically regarding gender, like "how does gender within a social context influence one's mental health," then obviously you'd have to acknowledge gender to have this discussion, but I don't see why we shouldn't try to approach our daily interactions from a gender neutral position.

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There is no sustainable gender neutral position. It is a ridiculous proposition, no matter how many complications you throw into the subject. Don't waste your time and that of others. Discussions are not necessary beyond what is possible to discuss, no matter how many times they run in the show.

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Originally Posted by mona amon

Completely agree with Charles. Of course there's maleness and femaleness, and the two are pretty different. It's nothing to do with intelligence, ability, behavior or personality. It is something much more basic and innate than that, and difficult to actually put your finger on. The difference is obviously biological - physical, hormonal etc, but it is a difference all the same, and a difference that is silly to ignore. Why on earth do transgender people have such problems with gender identity if there's no difference between the two?



Balderdash. What if these 'expressions of gender' are really the important and only difference? She seems to have tried so hard to confuse others that she ended up confusing herself.

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What is this difference though? I think that if you want to argue that there's a substantial and meaningful non-superficial difference between men and women you ought to be able to "put your finger on it." "Gentleness" and "sensitivity" are words I often hear in connection to femininity. That is bogus if you ask me. Men are often no less sensitive or gentle, its just not socially acceptable to appear as such. For much of our species' history it was the man's role to hunt and make war. The conditions required men to be hard-hearted. They no longer required that of us and we've seen the so-called feminine ideals of compassion and sensitivity being embraced by men everywhere.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

To use the word "huge" is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion. Women produce testosterone and men produce estrogen and progesterone, and the amount of each hormone varies depending on the individual you're looking at. What's more, out of all of the hormones in the human body, the variation in three hormones seems pretty minor to me.

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That would be three of the many endocrine glands in the human body, many of which have different responses and length of response depending on the chromosomal gender of the person. Many of those differences are health issues that won't go away.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Also, you can tell how important something is to a system by messing with it. If you inhibit or assist testosterone, progesterone or estrogen in a man or woman the affects on the individual's personality aren't extraordinarily pronounced.

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You can't mean that?

Estrogen therapy is what M->F transexuals take to become more female and grow breasts, is what killed Alan Turing and it stops women getting pregnant. I can't think of many things that are more mind-altering.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

...I don't see why we shouldn't try to approach our daily interactions from a gender neutral position.

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I've already said that, but you can't sweep the subject under the mat.

Have studies ever been done on physical differences in male and female brains and what they mean? And while this may be a political hot potato, have the brains of transgendered people ever been studied to determine whether there is a physical reason for their feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, or whether it is more likely purely psychological?

The Chemistry Between Us does provide a summary of research showing that there are physical reasons for much of our sexual behavior and preferences. Most of this research occurred within the last 30 years. Some of it is based on case studies and others on experiments done on prairie voles who recently were found to be monogamous.

I vaguely remember one case study of a transgendered boy. He was turned into a physical female after an infant circumcision accident. By that time his brain was already organized as male. Initially he was used as a case study showing that gender was culturally determined. As he grew older this had to be rejected according to the authors.

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

My argument against gender neutrality is not how we see/treat others, but how we see/treat ourselves. There is nothing wrong we being masculine/feminine and we should not have to sacrifice it because of intolerant *******s.

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I'll think about that. I still don't think that gender-based personality differences are primarily due to biology though, not only because that doesn't make sense but also if it were then that would mean that me and people like me who are both or neither genders, or the gender they weren't born with, are exactly as people say: we're written-in-stone hardwired to be a certain way but somehow became "psychologically confused," and are acting against our "true nature." I don't think they're right at all, I don't feel that way, and as far as I can tell any man can be influenced to act "feminine" and women to act "masculine," so in my opinion the gender clichés that one embodies must be variable despite sex.

So, I've exposed myself as a person with a personal stake in this topic, but that's not the only place I'm coming from: this topic is straight-up unknown right now, so making solid statements about it isn't right. Any discussion on personality and what influences and shapes it would be tentative and based on imperfect observation, because personality is a new and very tricky branch of science. Trying to understand personality is like trying to grasp water. How can we identify the cause of traits if they're constantly shifting depending on the situation the individual finds themselves in? Making solid statements about what shapes personality when we can't even peg personality down is just not possible, and we can't even really define gender either for that matter. It's mostly just opinion at this stage in the game.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Estrogen therapy is what M->F transexuals take to become more female and grow breasts, is what killed Alan Turing and it stops women getting pregnant. I can't think of many things that are more mind-altering.

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Death, body shape, and the ability to have children are physical differences, and they also influence the human mind on their own, so it's not really possible to say that the cause of any observed differences is the hormone. I can think of several things that more overtly influence human behaviour, including drugs, witnessing or experiencing a traumatic or life-altering event (which would include a sex change - complex topic, eh?), and brain damage especially.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

Have studies ever been done on physical differences in male and female brains and what they mean? And while this may be a political hot potato, have the brains of transgendered people ever been studied to determine whether there is a physical reason for their feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, or whether it is more likely purely psychological?

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I got Young and Alexander's The Chemistry Between Us from the library. Dick Swaab has a lab that maintains the Netherlands Brain Bank founded in 1985. Here's something from pages 30-31:

Swaab has also found the transgender brain. After years of searching his lab discovered differences in a structure called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST)....When Swaab's lab looked at the BNSTs of male and female heterosexuals and homosexuals, and at those of male-to-female transsexuals, it found that the transgender BNST was the same size as the BNST of women.

This seems to be confirmed by the Wikipedia article on "causes of transsexualism" although other causes are also mentioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I'll think about that. I still don't think that gender-based personality differences are primarily due to biology though, not only because that doesn't make sense but also if it were then that would mean that me and people like me who are both or neither genders, or the gender they weren't born with, are exactly as people say: we're written-in-stone hardwired to be a certain way but somehow became "psychologically confused," and are acting against our "true nature." I don't think they're right at all, I don't feel that way, and as far as I can tell any man can be influenced to act "feminine" and women to act "masculine," so in my opinion the gender clichés that one embodies must be variable despite sex.

So, I've exposed myself as a person with a personal stake in this topic, but that's not the only place I'm coming from: this topic is straight-up unknown right now, so making solid statements about it isn't right. Any discussion on personality and what influences and shapes it would be tentative and based on imperfect observation, because personality is a new and very tricky branch of science. Trying to understand personality is like trying to grasp water. How can we identify the cause of traits if they're constantly shifting depending on the situation the individual finds themselves in? Making solid statements about what shapes personality when we can't even peg personality down is just not possible, and we can't even really define gender either for that matter. It's mostly just opinion at this stage in the game.



Death, body shape, and the ability to have children are physical differences, and they also influence the human mind on their own, so it's not really possible to say that the cause of any observed differences is the hormone. I can think of several things that more overtly influence human behaviour, including drugs, witnessing or experiencing a traumatic or life-altering event (which would include a sex change - complex topic, eh?), and brain damage especially.

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You are right that everything that can be said in the matter is very tentative and inconclusive - such is the fun and frustration of the topic. There are plenty who have done more in depth research than myself into this matter, so anything that I write is only my opinion - as always, unless I am quoting.

Since I read your post this morning, I have been thinking of the subject of gender identity as analogous to sexual preference (these are two very different matters, I know.) However, in the broadest sense, there are 4 types of sexual attractions: you are attracted to men, to women, to both, to neither. So why can't gender self-identification work in the same way (again, in the broadest sense). That is, I find nothing wrong with those who ascribe to male or female traits - the grand archetype of what it means to be a man and a woman (as antiquated and artificially constructed as it may be). But I can fully acknowledge that some self identify as both or neither.

As for what these distinctions are beyond the physical - I too have a hard time pinning them down. Again, how you perceive yourself shouldn't define what role you play in society, what jobs you do, or what activities you do - but how you see your gender (male/female/both/neither) does underscore many aspects of your life, even if you are not giving conscience thought to it.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

What is this difference though? I think that if you want to argue that there's a substantial and meaningful non-superficial difference between men and women you ought to be able to "put your finger on it." "Gentleness" and "sensitivity" are words I often hear in connection to femininity. That is bogus if you ask me. Men are often no less sensitive or gentle, its just not socially acceptable to appear as such. For much of our species' history it was the man's role to hunt and make war. The conditions required men to be hard-hearted. They no longer required that of us and we've seen the so-called feminine ideals of compassion and sensitivity being embraced by men everywhere.

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When I argue that differences between women and men are too obvious to be ignored, I am talking mainly about biological differences. Most of the posters here feel these biological differences are superficial and do not matter in the least, but that just sounds like something impractical and idealistic to me. Like it or not, at this stage in human evolution, whether we are born with a Y chromosome or not is going to influence the way we behave, the way we see ourselves, and the way others see us. I haven't looked into the matter much, but I think most studies show that there are physiological and anatomical differences in male and female brains, resulting in psychological differences, but it's very difficult to determine whether these differences are genetic or whether the brain changes due to learned behavior. Most likely differences in male and female behavior are partly genetic and hormonal, partly learned, so where does that leave us? The differences are still here to stay.

As you say, deviation from gender role stereotypes is often frowned upon, but this is true of any sort of atypical behavior, not just gender-atypical behavior. It is this tendency to penalize atypical behavior that has to be addressed, rather than trying to iron out gender differences that most people are quite comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

Is it any longer meaningful to posit an essential difference between men and women beyond the merely anatomical? The past couple hours I've been reading Judith Butler and going over other people's interpretations of her. She basically argues that gender is non-essential, that rather than being feminine or masculine we actually only "act and walk and speak and talk in ways that consolidate an impression of being a man or being a woman," and consequently "there is no gender identity behind the expressions of gender... identity is performatively constituted by the very 'expressions' that are said to be its results." These gender performances are said to be the result of socially and culturally reinforced habits, rather than a reflection of any innate individual identity.

I've always taken a firm stance against such ideas before, but when I think really hard about what distinguishes men from women all the differences seem quite superficial. I can't rationally say that a man or woman ought to act in this or that particular way simply because they happen to be a man or a woman. There isn't a single psychological or behavioural generalization we can make according to gender which holds true for each and every individual, and we must ask that of those which do hold true in most cases, how many if any at all are the result of a static natural gender "essence," and which are merely the product of socially and culturally enforced norms? It shouldn't be considered some error, some mistake every time I cry at a movie, take great delight in clothes shopping, or wear the colour pink.

What do you make of this?

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Your initial dismissal of Butler's ideas and subsequent reevaluation of your own belief-system regarding the issue is admirable. I agree 100% that when we investigate gender characteristics outside the confines of a biological framework, the only differences we see are the ones we choose to improvise. This leads to warped generalizations as to what constitutes gender "norms" (i.e. toy trucks for boys, barbie dolls for girls). My mother turned the stereotype on its head when she gave me a doll to play with at the age of 3. I am quite possibly the straightest man you will ever see (it actually gets quite annoying in class when I pitch a tent because the girl next to me is wearing attire that liberally displays her knockers), but at the time I received that doll I thought it was the most fascinating/fun toy in the world. The concepts of "freedom", "self-expression/individuality", and "independence" are universally considered laudable descriptions to be used for any person. One of the many reasons for this, is that it requires audacity and unconventional thinking along with the willingness to face ostracism/ridicule for doing what you truly believe. As a society, the closer we get to blanking out the "cultural" differences between men and women, the faster we can make true progress in gender relations.