Tragic death

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Originally Posted by miyako73

The world has to be racist against India, if it is the only thing that will change its culture of misogyny, if it's the only force of shame that will make its leaders act, and if it's the only way to make its people see the dirt and disease of their unjust, violent minds.

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If you'd said things like international protests and vigils, then that would have been reasonable. What you do suggest is ridiculous on many levels.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I think the danger with this story is that it is being turned into a racist assault on India and Indian culture, as though rape is not a problem elsewhere. Things are just as bad, and just as under-reported in the western world. Women's rights are tenuous the world over. A timely report here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ini?intcmp=239
and here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...e-8433445.html

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I think it would be a mistake to compare reported rape cases in the UK and India. There is under reporting in the UK which is at least trying to improve the police procedures. Those adverts on TV about the no means no issue shows where we want to be at least. The social pressures in India are very different to here. The inequality is much greater.

This case has got into limelight because of the way the assault happened on the girl, which was much more than sexual assault. And that has got nothing to do with the caste she belonged to. Before the assault, she was not asked for permission to assault based on her caste. It was an act of sick minds. When a girl walks the streets, it's not written on her face that she belongs to a certain caste and so she should or should not be raped. Her being a medical student is just a related fact and that also does not make her by default a lower or upper caste (ever heard of reservation?). Relating this case with the caste is generalizing it a bit too much. And if you are not aware, the caste system is not just amongst Hindus, it's in other religions too.

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India. However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims. This will definitely help in more cases being reported. This case has also raised concerns on the attitude of the society on the upbringing of children and the gender inequality. I think a stricter law and it's efficient implementation will make the society behave to some extent. We have to wait and watch how the change takes place.

If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.

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Originally Posted by Madhuri

This case has got into limelight because of the way the assault happened on the girl, which was much more than sexual assault. And that has got nothing to do with the caste she belonged to. Before the assault, she was not asked for permission to assault based on her caste. It was an act of sick minds. When a girl walks the streets, it's not written on her face that she belongs to a certain caste and so she should or should not be raped. Her being a medical student is just a related fact and that also does not make her by default a lower or upper caste (ever heard of reservation?). Relating this case with the caste is generalizing it a bit too much. And if you are not aware, the caste system is not just amongst Hindus, it's in other religions too.

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India. However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims. This will definitely help in more cases being reported. This case has also raised concerns on the attitude of the society on the upbringing of children and the gender inequality. I think a stricter law and it's efficient implementation will make the society behave to some extent. We have to wait and watch how the change takes place.

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This case is horrible for the girl and her family. Nothing takes away from that fact.

The wider questions raised also come because of the attack, and the problem is the inequalities which exist in India - particularly for women. I don't think you can get away from inequality to women/ attitudes to women/ caste because the caste situation creates and sustains inequality. This is particularly difficult for women who are vulnerable to negative influences and attitudes. Clearly anyone can have something unfortunate happen to them, but would it receive as much attention as it has done if the girl had been an untouchable?

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India.

It is thus difficult to come up with figures, but we have agencies in the UK which deal with victims beyond the criminal justice system. They regularly make statements and try to positively affect policy. It's not perfect, but what is? It can only improve. The work done has removed the stigma of rape for women to a greater extent than in the past, and attitudes are healthier than they were. Can you say that attitudes in India to a raped girl are healthy and that the stigma has been removed? It requires a very large cultural shift which will not happen overnight.

By the way, I don't know where Miyako is from or why they are so negative about India, or why China - that bastion of human rights - is held up as a good example in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Madhuri

However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims.

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Why might Indian police be less than approachable or sensitive to victims of rape, especially rape by strangers and, more especially, rape with assault? Are there cultural or historical factors that makes India different? Is community tolerance for honour killings somehow related?

Romanticizing India is not the solution. Even Indian leaders educated in the west have resorted to "collective shaming." The enlightened Whites used the same thing when they supported Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. India needs an enlightened class that will be so ashamed of being part of the problem because of its silence. Because of that shame, that enlightened class will speak up.

A good Australian article: http://mangaloretoday.com/mt/index.p...type=109&cat=2

Indian politicians have been saying the gang-rape of Amanat is a national shame. If it is that shameful, they should do something. Damn parrots!

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Originally Posted by miyako73

Romanticizing India is not the solution. Even Indian leaders educated in the west have resorted to "collective shaming." The enlightened Whites used the same thing when they supported Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. India needs an enlightened class that will be so ashamed of being part of the problem because of its silence. Because of that shame, that enlightened class will speak up.

A good Australian article: http://mangaloretoday.com/mt/index.p...type=109&cat=2

Indian politicians have been saying the gang-rape of Amanat is a national shame. If it is that shameful, they should do something. Damn parrots!

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That is a very good point the whole world needs an enlightened class. I don't know anything about this particular situation but India certainly has bigger problems. The gap between wealthy and poor is growing across the world. The world is under the control of corporations and anyone that doesn't have money can suck it, that includes all the wildlife on the planet and the planet itself. It is our fault, it is because of our indifference. The damn petite bourgeois care for nothing but there own survival. It is because of our love of progress for progresses sake, because what would the world be without central air!? Oh the humanity! Meanwhile we are losing our humanity. More and more I see people with their faces glued to their damned IPhones only concerned with not standing out, only concerned with what everyone else is concerned with. The individual is dead. Go anywhere around the world and witness the lose of culture at different stages for progress. Witness the lifeless state of earth at different stages. I live in New York, it is winter all the time here. Dead, nothing lives, cept the rats.

don't suggest that the poor care more than their own survival Rumfield. Don't give the poor credit just because they're poor.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

don't suggest that the poor care more than their own survival Rumfield. Don't give the poor credit just because they're poor.

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No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

So what you're saying is peoples are peoples. Sounds human to me.

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Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

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Well, well I think I agree with most of that. However the middle class are necessary to society, they are like a lump of ballast on a ship. As long as they are there in sufficient numbers they keep things stable.

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Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

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Speaking as a member of the middle-class, I'd just like to say that all this is absolutely true about the middle-class. From my years of being poor, I can also say it's absolutely true about the poor. I'm working on becoming rich (mainly by having my iPhone glued to my face) and when I get there, I'll let you know how true or otherwise the above is about the rich.

Top Stories in India today. Find me a set of top stories like this in any country.

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Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

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What are you a starving Indian child? How on earth could you think that a cop or a teacher is middle-class with the salaries they make. Lets face it, cops and teachers are paid working-class salaries.

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Originally Posted by miyako73

If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.

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Madhuri was not trying to romanticise. She was trying to present a more balanced view of what happened, since a few people (including you) have automatically linked this rape to the condition of women in India, female feoticide, etc, etc. This particular assault, where a helpless couple fell into the the hands of violent criminally minded men late in the night, could have happened in any country.

And China, really? A country which has an even more skewed sex-ratio than India? And whatever horrible things may happen in India, at least it's all out there in the newspapers and TV for all to see.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sweep my country's womens' problems under the carpet. But when I see a post like this -

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Originally Posted by miyako73

Daily or hourly rape of women in India is the effect of decades of female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder. As the girls and women organize and become more vigilant and their numbers continue to dwindle because of more female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder, Indian men will be raping Indian boys and other men.

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it strikes me as reductive, half-baked, partial knowledge and simplistic conclusions. At the root of most of India's problems are the extreme poverty of most of the people, the huge differences in power/wealth, and of course corruption. You've got to understand that, before suggesting simplistic solutions.