A Question for Atheist or Anyone

:eek:

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

Nothing good ever comes of it :)

But let me put this hypothetical question to you....

You are told that the Bible is pure fiction, that God never existed, that you must publicly denounce everything written in the Bible, that you cannot talk about, write about, promote in any way, display in any way a belief that reflects Christianity. You must teach your children evolution and explain that the scientific view of the world is the only one. You cannot celebrate any holidays. Failure to do any of this will result in your horrible death - which would you choose?

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Mmm, death rather than pose another question on lit-net?

I think I miss your point. I gotta give up everything I've come to know and If I fail to do this, I get death? So would I choose a life that I don't believe in to save my life? You see that all depends. I don't think Christianity is based on a believer believing. I know that sounds weird, and there are many exceptions of people going over board believing nutty stuff. But I believe it is something that grasp your soul. I mean that's my experience, though I'm sure others would say I'm nuts.

My point is that this is basically what the apostles were faced with - a life (and lives of their children) that they "knew" to be false, or death. They chose death.

Not being so attached to religion, I would choose life in this instance. But, if for example, I was told I had to burn all my books and to never read another book in my life, or to never write....I might choose death over this option because I am so attached to books.

A simpler question for Christians: If you were threatened with death, would you renounce god?

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

A simpler question for Christians: If you were threatened with death, would you renounce god?

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I suppose you're a Christian Authority? I sense a tone with your question. Respect my belief and I your's!

My answer would be, let the lions eat me alive.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

I suppose you're a Christian Authority? I sense a tone with your question. Respect my belief and I your's!

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I don't see how...it really just answers your original question.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

I suppose you're a Christian Authority? I sense a tone with your question. Respect my belief and I your's!

My answer would be, let the lions eat me alive.

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They say that in text we imagine our own voice in the posts of others. I respect you, I don't have to respect Christianity. It isn't a being with feelings, it's an organization.

You would have the lions eat you alive, and yet you have never seen Jesus Christ in the flesh. My point is that people will die based on principle. It's not proof of "eye witnessing" anything.

For those imagining a tone, there was only a tone in the single post I made that was a personal attack directed at a specific individual. Admittedly, I insulted a fellow lit-netter. I'm in a good mood today though. I was directly responding to a personal demeaning of my intelligence and educational status. I rarely take things seriously, but I've worked hard, and continue to work hard toward building my education.

Beyond that single matter, I feel no ill will toward anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

I don't see how...it really just answers your original question.

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My original question went something like this:

Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
I don't want this to become an all-out shouting match, matching one's belief's with another belief's. I feel that just endlessly misses the point.

What I want to know is, in your opinion, why would certain apostles of Christ go to their deaths, when they had a choice to denounce him? If what they purportedly witnessed (some first hand) or fabricated, then why would they willingly go to their deaths for a made-up story?

From all accounts I have read, some just had to denounce Christ and they would be spared death. Why would a sane person (supposing they were) die willingly for nothing?

Shadows

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Until you get some, why not stop trying to drag us into the muck of your dogmatism?

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You posted that at 7:00. That was directed at me. But I don't want to get into all that. I asked a question and I see no one has a concrete answer. I'm sorry to say.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

You posted that at 7:00. That was directed at me. But I don't want to get into all that. I asked a question and I see no one has a concrete answer. I'm sorry to say.

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Your thread was addressed first to atheists. My question is genuine. What is it about the atheist opinion that you would find valuable? I haven't seen any indication that you respect skeptical or cynical viewpoints. Am I incorrect? If so, in what way? There is no tone here.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Your thread was addressed first to atheists. My question is genuine. What is it about the atheist opinion that you would find valuable? I haven't seen any indication that you respect skeptical or cynical viewpoints. Am I incorrect? If so, in what way? There is no tone here.

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Basically I would like to get into the frame of mind of an atheists and his point of view. Is that so bad? I'm not looking to put anyone down. Like you said, people read into things that are not there. I also said or anyone. But specifically, I find it fascinating that someone may go to their deaths believing a hollow lie. First account eyewitnesses I'm talking about. You would think they'd give up the ghost and say, yeah, game up, I'll live.

I respect all creeds and beliefs. If I ask a black person what it was like to be living in the south in the 60's, would that make me a nut? Just posing a question to a specific group, that's all. If an atheist don't have an answer, then I move on. But remind me not ask another question again. I'll stick to harmless poetry.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

A simpler question for Christians: If you were threatened with death, would you renounce god?

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No, I would not.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

Basically I would like to get into the frame of mind of an atheists and his point of view. Is that so bad? I'm not looking to put anyone down. Like you said, people read into things that are not there. I also said or anyone. But specifically, I find it fascinating that someone may go to their deaths believing a hollow lie. First account eyewitnesses I'm talking about. You would think they'd give up the ghost and say, yeah, game up, I'll live.

I respect all creeds and beliefs. If I ask a black person what it was like to be living in the south in the 60's, would that make me a nut? Just posing a question to a specific group, that's all. If an atheist don't have an answer, then I move on. But remind me not ask another question again. I'll stick to harmless poetry.

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Fair enough. My initial response is that I don't have much interest in why the apostles made the choices they did, because that has nothing to do with why I'm an atheist, and Christianity isn't an important part of my life.

If someone asked me why I think some people choose to use a wedge over a 9 iron in golf, I would have to say that I don't play golf, so I'm the wrong person to ask. Christianity isn't my religion, it's yours. My anti-Christianity stance can only be a negative for Christians, unless they chuck it all and join team science, but I don't expect that to happen. In other words, I'm not trying to harm or disrespect anyone by saying, "Hey, I don't believe this." If you invite my opinion, knowing that you sincerely believe in that which you believe in, you will find us at odds on this particular subject.

You might tell me you love the Eagles. I hate the Eagles. No amount of telling me that their catalogue of songs greatly influenced the direction of classic rock will make me believe it's so.

I view being an atheist like that. It's as small in my life as the kind of music, books, or movies I like. It's a category in my persona. I'm told that for Christians, their religion is their whole world and existence, it gives meaning to their lives and etc. I think this makes it difficult for a Christian to disassociate criticisms of the religion from criticisms of themselves. I like Japanese pop music. If you tell me you hate it, I won't take it as a personal attack. I hate Christianity, but not Christians. I hope you don't take that as a personal attack. I also hope this answers your original question better than my first attempt.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

No, I would not.

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Ok, cool. Following that, if you now tell me you eye witnessed Jesus Christ in town somewhere, should I believe you (based only on the knowledge that you would die upholding what you believe to be true)?

I live around many atheist myself. My brother for one, my step-dad another, not to mention my entire family and basically 95% of people I know don't believe in Christianity; not from a real sense of it's true principals. So I'm no hater, as a matter of fact, if someone brought something to my attention regarding my faith I'd be glad to answer them. I wouldn't attack the wording of their question unless they attacked me specifically, then it's fair game.

I think the problem with Christianity with most people is it makes no sense to them. But It's not supposed to make sense. It's about believing the unbelievable. If God came down and said, here, I'm gonna walk on water, now do you believe me? Of course, I would seriously consider it. But then what would be the point of us dying then? Wouldn't we all be in good with God?

My opinion regarding the question I posed is, I think they saw something and believed in it; and to the point of even death obviously. That seems pretty rational. Something a non believer might get into, rational thinking.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Fair enough. My initial response is that I don't have much interest in why the apostles made the choices they did, because that has nothing to do with why I'm an atheist, and Christianity isn't an important part of my life.

If someone asked me why I think some people choose to use a wedge over a 9 iron in golf, I would have to say that I don't play golf, so I'm the wrong person to ask. Christianity isn't my religion, it's yours. My anti-Christianity stance can only be a negative for Christians, unless they chuck it all and join team science, but I don't expect that to happen. In other words, I'm not trying to harm or disrespect anyone by saying, "Hey, I don't believe this." If you invite my opinion, knowing that you sincerely believe in that which you believe in, you will find us at odds on this particular subject.

You might tell me you love the Eagles. I hate the Eagles. No amount of telling me that their catalogue of songs greatly influenced the direction of classic rock will make me believe it's so.

I view being an atheist like that. It's as small in my life as the kind of music, books, or movies I like. It's a category in my persona. I'm told that for Christians, their religion is their whole world and existence, it gives meaning to their lives and etc. I think this makes it difficult for a Christian to disassociate criticisms of the religion from criticisms of themselves. I like Japanese pop music. If you tell me you hate it, I won't take it as a personal attack. I hate Christianity, but not Christians. I hope you don't take that as a personal attack. I also hope this answers your original question better than my first attempt.

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I hope it's nothing personal cause I didn't do anything to cause a problem. I was just curious and I guess curiosity killed the cat. You believe in Logical thinking. You believe in Science. I believe in both of them to a point. I believe in divine thinking. I believe in Wisdom. I think that's why we are budding heads. Our thoughts clash big time. But that doesn't mean we can't respect each other as people. I hope we can at least.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

I hope it's nothing personal cause I didn't do anything to cause a problem. I was just curious and I guess curiosity killed the cat. You believe in Logical thinking. You believe in Science. I believe in both of them to a point. I believe in divine thinking. I believe in Wisdom. I think that's why we are budding heads. Our thoughts clash big time. But that doesn't mean we can't respect each other as people. I hope we can at least.

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Yeah, we're cool. I don't believe in science though. Science to me is just a system of testing and utilizing the physical world. It's like saying I believe in the sun, or my television set. I don't have to believe in it because it's right there. Also, I don't think I have firm answers on why we exist. For all I know, this could all be a dream. I have to question accounts that say we know why we're here. I'm like a really thorough jury member. I would have to be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt. Eye witness accounts don't do anything for me. I'm too aware of how dishonest people can be. I also know that people frequently die for all sorts of reasons; some of them stupid and/or selfish. Still, I don't think seeking to convert atheists to Christianity will benefit anything. I'm very happy as I am. I've read and understand the possible consequences for being a non-believer if it turns out that a god exists. I simply don't care. I care about what happens now. In this life. This is where I'm at. :)

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Ok, cool. Following that, if you now tell me you eye witnessed Jesus Christ in town somewhere, should I believe you (based only on the knowledge that you would die upholding what you believe to be true)?

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I never said that my faith was based on the same kind of evidence as the apostles.