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i know there was one part in the columbine film where Moore said "and what did heston say to the murdered families" (who asked him to cancel his gun rally) and it cut to heston saying "over my dead body" but that quote was from some old rally and he wasnt saying it to the family.
Haha, it was "from my cold, dead hands!!!" Nevermind how tasteless it is that Heston was about eighty years old, an alcoholic and suffering from Alzheimer's disease at the time, apparently he was still a worthy target for Moore's hackneyed film editing jibes. Man Micheal Moore sucks.
In an age when the biggest media sources and products are all either apolitical or highly corporate, having one man who can make a left-wing film and sell a lot of tickets is a nice thing. He can be cheap, he can shamelessly ply his tactics to the viewer's heart-strings, but he doesn't outright lie very often like an Anne Coulter or a Glen Beck.
You haters of Michael Moore, are you ideologically against the man, or do you just not believe there is a place for political content in the mainstream?
Yeah. Heston was still holding a pro-gun rally in an area where a little girl had recently died due to gun violence. I'm pro-gun, but the tasteless one in that equation was Heston.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
No, I never care if people are opposed to me ideologically as long as they aren't dicks. I just don't like him as a person, I think his methods are really underhanded. He asked Matt Stone and Trey Parker to make a cartoon short about gun control for Bowling for Columbine, and when they refused him he got someone else to make one in a very similar animation style and he showed it right after he showed an interview with Matt. Everyone obviously thought that it was them who made it, but they didn't and in fact the message it conveyed was opposed to their views. He's essentially a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
That's not really my point. I don't like Charlton Heston either, but talk about your cheap whipping posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
what has politics got to do with it is a good starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
To be fair to Moore, his films are meant to be entertaining as well as deliberately provocative politically. In general, Moore doesn't misrepresent the issues he takes on, he actually scores pretty well over at politifact when they looked at his most recent film.
Also, Moore I think is believable as a social activist, not because he puts on the appearance of an every man, but largely because he has a long career as a social activist when he was just an every man. This is a guy who got his start founding a newspaper, and making documentaries about the negative effects of globalization when nobody was paying attention to it. Bowling for Columbine made him rich, which is a feet in itself as few documentaries ever make any money.
And the style of the cartoon from Bowling for Columbine doesn't even look like South Park, apart from being cheap because it was done on low budget. And Moore didn't ask Stone and Parker to make a cartoon for his film, after the fact they felt the cartoon looked too much like South Park, even though nothing about their involvement with the cartoon is mentioned in the film, nor is it in any way implied that they were involved with it. It's a stupid complaint.
In relation, I don't buy Parker and Stone's "equal opportunity offenders" bull****, it's a disingenuous handwaving effort to avoid criticism.
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Originally Posted by Darcy88
I dislike him for the same reason I dislike the Bill O'Reilly's of the world. Now you can argue that he's not as bad, and that's okay, that's no my bone of contention here, but I believe he comes under the same or similar umbrella.
Someone who doesn't care about actual discussion, someone who doesn't care about mature, thought-out and reasonable discussion about issues but rather, prefers to manipulate issues and bend things to push his views. Someone who heavily uses cheap tactics.
On a personal level, I find little intellectual depth to anything he has to say.
It's not just a personal ideological thing; I know many on the left and right whom I disagree with, but who I respect highly and listen to their opinion, because they're not manipulative opportunists.
I think Michael Moore, unfortunately, does a disservice to the left or liberals. If he really wanted to enact change and have his message heard, then he would perhaps try to appeal to more people and more to the center... instead he goes on present very skewed pictures and narratives that generally only serve his own interests, making even the left dislike him.... I will admit I have liked some of his films (like Roger and Me), but I just think he is too extreme and fundamentalist that he does not allow for any dialogue to take place... in this sense he is just as bad as most of the conservatives he bashes. It would be much more effective to take a bit of a more even-sided approach...
But hey, I do think that it is nice having a counter to some of those crazies on the right out there...
Only from the perspective of a bleeding heart liberal...Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
I agree. I probably voted for the same people Moore did, but he has made me wonder if I shouldn't change my mind--at least until I look at the alternatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoeticPassions
Regarding "Stupid White Men", which I haven't seen or read does Moore consider himself one of them?
Well, let's look at the issues covered in Moore's films.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
1. Roger and Me. Globalization and the decline of the American auto-makers in the 1980s. Not particularly a bleeding heart liberal issue, but an expose of something most people now accept since the auto industry has continued to rapidly decline in Michigan.
2. Bowling for Columbine. High US gun crime possibly being a result of a cultural fetishism for firearms. A more controversial, but not an outlandish idea, as something should explain why the US has such an elevated gun crime rate relative to other developed nations. Although, the main point of the film is to make the argument that there is a gun crime issue in the US that is not being addressed in the public political discourse.
3. Fahrenheit 911. Accusations of personal profit and investment of the Bush administration in pushing forward the Iraq war, and possible negligence in allowing 9/11. Certainly, the most controversial, but the accusations aren't entirely unfair.
4. Sicko. The US healthcare system is dysfunctional and low performing compared to other developed countries.
5. Capitalism a Love Story. Like I mentioned, Politifact found that his claims about wealth disparity in the US hold up for the most part.
Do any of the positions in those films qualify as far left? No, not really. Comparing him to extremist like Glen Beck isn't quite fair when you look at the claims Moore actually makes. His political positions are pretty mainstream mixed-economy moderate left.
Yeah, damn this stupid bleeding heart liberals, always caring about other people and stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
And, Pip, to a conservative, anything at all to the left of their belief is usually deemed "bleeding heart liberal."
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I agree with all OrphanPip has said. I think the dislike we see for Michael Moore materializing here is in large part due to the massive ideological propoganda machine which tries to chew him up at every opportunity. Compare Michael Moore to Anne Coulter or Glenn Beck in terms of integrity and truth and you see that he isn't all that bad. Michael Moore is one of the only legitimately left-wing presences in the American mainstream. Msnbc is a hack democratic party cheerleading entity and doesn't really count.
I won't get into it any further since its too political.
Michael Moore has never seen me eat. I am a tiny little woman but I can sure pack it away. I'm extremely lucky to have the metabolism of a super hero because my inner woman is like 800 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutie