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I was nervous when I cheated on exam. Everybody did as it was a waste of time to study but some of students weren’t nervous at all. But I was never nervous when I helped friends during the exam. I guess I didn’t feel that it was I who cheated……. it was a higher purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
I can only reply by saying: :smilielol5:Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Thank you, Bill! That's one of the funniest things I have read on here in a long while.
Music to any teacher's ears! And since all the kids were doing it, it was OK to do so, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
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Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I was not talking about kids. lol Nobody was studying it as it was impossible to understand it. It was a theory that has failed anyway. After all, they have done a good job to teach us questioning and critical thinking. You can’t fool that much university students.
That's about the long and short of it. It's about the wisest thing this reader has ever seen in a thread about an ethical question (granted, the bar isn't often high).Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
There's probably no karma coming around again. People who cheat will probably never 'get what's coming to them.' Blessed souls, those who can look back and think 'I killed. I stole. I did it for wealth.' or similar without hating themselves for the act. Maybe they go their whole lives without a look backward, leaving you in the dust with your pretty, ethical thoughts.
J
Story of my life - the being left in the dust with ethical thoughts bit, not the guiltless murder part. I am not "holy" or "righteous", but I have an absurd set of principles that I stick to and, even when horribly inconvenienced, I cannot find my way to let go of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Hearts
Cheers, amigo. Here's to being losers.
The upshot is that this reader probably wouldn't trade. That is, if every element within a person precariously comes together to make the person who she or he is, like a walker on a tightrope, and there's a risk of losing some essential 'person-ness' by lack of the smallest part...
Well, there have been experiences and there is a vision of living that this reader wouldn't want to give up.
"The path to salvation is narrow and as difficult to walk as a razor's edge."-W. Somerset Maugham
... taking salvation in a non traditional sense, anyways. More aesthetic than deontological.
J
i don't think you are over reacting. this is a way to encourage plagiarism and plagiarism is the worst crime that a literature student or a literature lover can commit.
It's easy to be kind when we're well off. I think one could say same thing about being morally righteous.
University students are attending school volunatarily, and often sign honor pledges. However, grammar school and high school are compulsory (here in the U.S.). Why should students who might get punished for failing to complete an assignment have any compunctions about cheating? Why should they buy into the school's rules, which they had no hand in creating, and are imposed on them from above?
If I were in high school or middle school and one of my pals said, "Whoops! I forgot my homework! Mean ol' Mrs. X is going to scream at me! Help a bro out and let me copy!" I would have no hesitation (except the fear of getting caught). Helping a friend is more important than complying with school rules.
Oh, come off it! Strict intellectual property laws (including copyright laws) impinge on freedom of speech (obviously). What constitutes “plagiarism”? Should people “own” ideas, or words?Quote:
Originally Posted by anishastrologer
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Originally Posted by Ecurb
Absolutely! Helping people is an act of kindness. There are more important values that can’t be broken then school rules.
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Oh, come off it! Strict intellectual property laws (including copyright laws) impinge on freedom of speech (obviously). What constitutes “plagiarism”? Should people “own” ideas, or words?
That’s a good question if people should own words or idea. Do they write to share their ideas and souls with others or do they write for more selfish reasons?
There is also an important issue of freedom of speech.
We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard.
~ Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
~ Voltaire
Plagiarism and copyright laws are not strictly the same thing, even if there is overlap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
As for copyright laws: while some (particularly in the US) seem to be a bit over the top - although I don't believe they cross the blurred "freedom of speech" law - people do own words and ideas. Writing an article/book is like inventing a product. You mix your labour with it and you should be the benefactor of inancial gain from the work (not to get all Marxist on this).
However, this is not what plagiarism is about, to me at least. It's not a matter of "student x is stealing someone's ideas" but more "student x is passing off someone's ideas as their own." This lack of thought and effort put into any work is a slap in the face to any teacher who has to read a plagiarized essay/assignment.
As for your point about up to high school being compulsory - yes it is true that there are people who "Don't buy into the school thing" - but should we let them cheat and pass them through with high grades? I have seen this happen and I have seen the university systems clogged up because these people who didn't give a damn about compulsory school feel that they also need to do the voluntary school (university/college) What then? Are they going to plagiarize in university? Or will they be in a position where they don't have the skills to succeed because they never put the time and effort into the work?
No, I don't agree that plagiarism is the worst crime for a lit student or lit. lover (that title belongs to burning books for me) - but it is a serious issue, and one that, as a teacher, I take a strong stance against.
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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
It sounds that it is more about a teacher then passing someone ideas as their own. :wink5: I woudn’t have any problem if somebody used my ideas and made a better use than I. But I am not a teacher.
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No, I don't agree that plagiarism is the worst crime for a lit student or lit. lover (that title belongs to burning books for me) - but it is a serious issue, and one that, as a teacher, I take a strong stance against.
Oh, I wish we had only that kind of serious issues. I would be more excited to hear how teachers teach critical and independent thinking. Perhaps, we wouldn’t have a problem with plagiarism in the first place.
Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only weapon against bad ideas is better ideas.
~ Alfred Whitney Griswold, New York times, 24 February 1959
It sounds like a fun job to have. I was listening to a news story about all the unemployed college graduates who majored in English and Psychology and Philosophy who have these student loans to pay for. In this economy, who can afford morals? :p
(Hello Shalot it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a conversation with another member in any one of our forums?)
It is reasonable for teachers like Charles Darnay to ferret out cheating and refuse to give credit for plagiarized work. The teachers are a voluntary part of the system that calls such plagiarism “cheating”. However, from the STUDENT’S perspective, the moral imperatives are less clear. I’ll grant that plagiarism is a form of lying (and thus against the Ten Commandments). However, there are many situations where lying is morally acceptable, even mandatory. The student who is trying to skate through school without getting punished is different in degree from the Jew trying to skate through the Warsaw Ghetto in WW2 without getting punished, but not in kind. Neither has a moral obligation to follow the rules imposed upon him without his consent.
Obviously, Charles, you are right that people do "own" words and ideas, given our current intellectual property laws. I wasn't clear. I meant to suggest that there is no "natural" reason people SHOULD own words or ideas. Freedom of speech and thought is clearly in conflict with intellectual property law. We create intellectual property laws to allow writers, inventors, et. al. to make money from their creations, because we think that there is a value in doing so that outweighs the value of allowing free speech and thought. I don't think we should abandon all intellectual property rights -- but as a supporter of free speech I think we should interpret such rights narrowly, and limit them to the realm of business and finance.