Enemy Within - Reflections on the Human Self (Nafs)

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I think 21st century science is compatible with many religions, not only the Muslim religion. This was not the case with science a hundred years ago and it may not be the case with science in the future.

Some Christians and Muslims, and perhaps others, take the texts they believe in too seriously to the point that their behavior could be considered idolatrous, that is, the texts become a sort of god or idol that they identity with and worship.

However, I don't want to encourage you to change your religious viewpoint. It apparently works for you. I believe that other religious viewpoints can achieve the same results. That is where we might disagree.

Thanks for responding to my question!

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yesNo
you are welcome.
its only your thinking i dont mind.
thanks for not changing my viewpoints. but if you give me any other better arguments, i'll change my viewpoint.

GL Wilson, Paulclem, and all dear fellows
There are series of good questions I saw. And I have posted the answers of these, some answers in the thread “why I believe in God”. I suggested the name of that thread should b “why I believe in God. Why I rejected God” as well

There are many things which was considered metaphysical or parapsychology in few decades before but now they have come in the circle of physical or psychology and have gained the status of science But one word is always being the top of them. That is God. And the answers or explanations of your questions I mentioned in why believe in God, there the arguments was given was not any internal phenomena argument.

But here I like to clear one point that God is not a redundant concept. If there is God, give only one percent chance of His existence, then? Trillions and trillions years life, I should say unlimited time ahead would be on risk. Isn’t it? A good business mind will never ignore it.

In the chemistry of human, I think God has feed his idea and it reflects in everyone’s mind to examine the person pursue it or deny it, Believe him or deny him. So this is reason word God (different names in different era for One God (Allah) concept, who is above all, nor borne nor have any children, He is not like anything which we can imagine even, has no wife, He is ist etc. ) is always popular.

We also see that science theories also proved wrong as it happened about the movement of universes, etc . hypothesis, experiments are done again and again and finally when reached on some invincible point explained the Quran statement. Like some examples I quoted in my other post. A fact takes a lot of time to get the status of science. Hypothesis, experiments, wrong and then again hypothesis and experiments. But we see when the God of Quran talks he talks with full confidence. If he mentioned some scientific facts He doesn’t hesitate that it could be wrong. why? becoz He is the creator. Muslims were afraid( many who wrongly translated the some words so that it couldnt not contradict with science but finally science proved it right) but God is not afraid to describe. As I mentioned in my other posts. Scientist today says that before the earth n sky there were clouds(of gases) and we know it for 14 centuries before.

We can explain the things or earth with the series of cause and effects. yes we can explain. so thats very reason we need any external scientifc argument to prove the existance of God. which is mentioned in the thread "why i beleive in God".... but the question why don’t we apply(cause and effect theory) on our self. What is our cause of being here? Is there any effect will happen upon me if i don’t fulfill my cause?

This world and universes are running in a perfect manner, a perfect guess of God. People are worried about suffering and deaths. And found it a counter argument against perfect scenario.
What happened with the people? People ask or demand there should be only day not night?
Only good not bad? only truth but not lie? Only God not self+devil? My dear fellows if you consider again than by this there would be no growth of mind. No usage of mind. No need for thinking. Consideration dies its own death. There would be no grades. There would b no advancement. Everything would be standstill and static. And vice versa.

I could live quite happily without the Devil, thanks.

But here I like to clear one point that God is not a redundant concept. If there is God, give only one percent chance of His existence, then? Trillions and trillions years life, I should say unlimited time ahead would be on risk. Isn’t it? A good business mind will never ignore it.

I don't find this argument very convincing - that we should believe in God just in case.

I'm not saying that a belief in God is bad - i think a religious viewpoint/ belief in God can provide a counter to prevailing negative trends in societies.

This world and universes are running in a perfect manner, a perfect guess of God. People are worried about suffering and deaths. And found it a counter argument against perfect scenario.
What happened with the people? People ask or demand there should be only day not night?
Only good not bad? only truth but not lie? Only God not self+devil? My dear fellows if you consider again than by this there would be no growth of mind. No usage of mind. No need for thinking. Consideration dies its own death. There would be no grades. There would b no advancement. Everything would be standstill and static. And vice versa.

This doesn't necessitate the need for a God either. Apart from the idea of it being perfect - which I find to be a term hard to apply to a description of the universe - eg perfect as opposed to what? - humankind would face challenges with or without divine creation.

PaulClem: But here I like to clear one point that God is not a redundant concept. If there is God, give only one percent chance of His existence, then? Trillions and trillions years life, I should say unlimited time ahead would be on risk. Isn’t it? A good business mind will never ignore it.

I don't find this argument very convincing - that we should believe in God just in case.

u didnt get what i said. its not argument for His existance. is it look like an argument to you? well the argument i have given in another threads for his ultimate existance. thats is about quran.

what i said above basically proceed once again what i have said earlier that did human solve the ist basic question? does God exist or not? should we give importance to this very ist question? should not we solve this quesiton in our early time of life? if He dont exist than there is no problem at all. be happy and do whatever you want to do. but tell me one thing if after my death i cant get the reward of my good doings than why i do good things? why i care about anything? why i promote/act so called good things? if some people remember me after my death in good manners, what can i feel, what i would gain? what is my benifit? or should i'll be happy in nothingness?

what i said above was not argument but what if God is awaiting?/?

well Job is not very difficult. and has been explain in so many verses.

Lo! We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving. (Dahar: 3)

I give you a talent, I give you thinking, and I give you apparatus of mind to think. And all I wanted you on earth, go on earth, think about surrounding, think about universe, think about life patterns and try to find out who is the creator? And you should develop greater love for him rather than any thing. It will be absurd to look for things below God’s status as God’s. So we are bound to consider God is the top truth reality. And not only that one who interfere in every bit of our life, in our first breath, in our last breath. He gives us honor, he gives us dishonor. He gives us children. He gives us parents, and when every thing is given by God then who is such a wise man, who will say God is a lesser importance or lesser priority. And you see our fault is very simple. This fault lies with every human being. We give lesser importance to top priority and more importance to lesser priorities.

religion was the way only. Goal was always same from adam to Muhammad. that is "there is no other gods but Allah( One God, free from all wants, not father of any creation nor son. nothing is like Him, most merciful n benificial etc)"



after death(transfering into next state/stage) there would b a single question ist of all. " who is your Lord? " .. one who used his mind and solve this question in the world will easyily give the answer. and will be awarded a boarding card. and will enter in his destination after dooms day for ever.

for me after solving the ist question the 2nd question was very simple , that whether i should move towards Him or not? for His nearness? should i take the side of God or Devil, take the way of good or bad? i had to clear my intention.

"This world and universes are running in a perfect manner, a perfect guess of God. People are worried about suffering and deaths. And found it a counter argument against perfect scenario.
What happened with the people? People ask or demand there should be only day not night?Only good not bad? only truth but not lie? Only God not self+devil? My dear fellows if you consider again than by this there would be no growth of mind. No usage of mind. No need for thinking. Consideration dies its own death. There would be no grades. There would b no advancement. Everything would be standstill and static. And vice versa. "

This doesn't necessitate the need for a God either. Apart from the idea of it being perfect - which I find to be a term hard to apply to a description of the universe - eg perfect as opposed to what? - humankind would face challenges with or without divine creation.

Dear! what i said above was in context "why sufferings why deaths?" hope u consider it again.

Short explanation for those i think who could not read above article about nafs. and for those who wanna summarize above.

Define ‘Nafs (Self)’ ‘Qalb(heart)’ Rooh( Soul, spirit)’.

Well! Many things have been said about these. Actually you don’t know any thing. You always pass a confusing statement about those things. When people did not know much about Nafs they said; it is the greatest enigma in the history of mankind (what is nafs) but it was not difficult. Nafs is actually the basic packet of your instincts, when get together they create a self that is nafs. And Qalb is a place; its very equivalence place where wisdom and nafs both act. It is a place. If I don’t have a place for anger in my heart I won’t get angry. Even if the Satan works very hard with me we provide him something from inside so it is a kind of land where he cast his seed. Heart is a place which lives with God. It only remains happy with God. But when it is not with God it is land of mischief. So everybody can come and puts some wrong in it. So I already told you when things go cracked, Qalb and nafs from a bad way of thinking moves on too. As Quran says:

God has created every thing in balance.

Nafs is fifty percent wisdom and fifty percent of the satanic impression. When you do get balance, heart gets balance, even Rooh gets balance. But when it gets corrupted, heart gets corrupted even the spirit gets corrupted and you go to Hell. When these are impaired, when they are not properly functioning, when they are not fulfilling the purpose of their creation they go to Hell. And if they succeed in knowing themselves Even a particle of faith will not die. Even a particle of faith will take you to the heaven if you are sincere. So basically there is no difference. We use people, use the mystic the mystic, use these words for facility. They don’t have any worthwhile explanation, what is heart? What is this? May be a teacher explains it as metaphysically, others mystically, the third one scientifically. And basically they use these words and phraseology for explaining certain conditions of mind so nafs is a word which is used for all negative qualities of man. And Qalb is a name which is used for a balanced sheet which has fifty percent both. And Rooh is used for the utmost purification of life. There are three mental conditions. I have never found a difference between Rooh and nafs and all this because to me they all work together this way or that way.

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

u didnt get what i said. its not argument for His existance. is it look like an argument to you? well the argument i have given in another threads for his ultimate existance. thats is about quran.

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But I didn't say it was an argument for his existence. I was saying that it's not a very convincing argument promote belief in it. You could say the same about forms of gambling.

So you're saying that God leaving people to suffer means a development in the human mind. It promotes thnking and problem solving. without challenges, then the human mind doesn't progress/

If you are a believer in God and the Devil, then perhaps this would be convincing. Given the amount and depth of human and animal suffering, then don't find this convincing either.

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

Short explanation for those i think who could not read above article about nafs. and for those who wanna summarize above.

Define ‘Nafs (Self)’ ‘Qalb(heart)’ Rooh( Soul, spirit)’.

Well! Many things have been said about these. Actually you don’t know any thing. You always pass a confusing statement about those things. When people did not know much about Nafs they said; it is the greatest enigma in the history of mankind (what is nafs) but it was not difficult. Nafs is actually the basic packet of your instincts, when get together they create a self that is nafs. And Qalb is a place; its very equivalence place where wisdom and nafs both act. It is a place. If I don’t have a place for anger in my heart I won’t get angry. Even if the Satan works very hard with me we provide him something from inside so it is a kind of land where he cast his seed. Heart is a place which lives with God. It only remains happy with God. But when it is not with God it is land of mischief. So everybody can come and puts some wrong in it. So I already told you when things go cracked, Qalb and nafs from a bad way of thinking moves on too. As Quran says:

God has created every thing in balance.

Nafs is fifty percent wisdom and fifty percent of the satanic impression. When you do get balance, heart gets balance, even Rooh gets balance. But when it gets corrupted, heart gets corrupted even the spirit gets corrupted and you go to Hell. When these are impaired, when they are not properly functioning, when they are not fulfilling the purpose of their creation they go to Hell. And if they succeed in knowing themselves Even a particle of faith will not die. Even a particle of faith will take you to the heaven if you are sincere. So basically there is no difference. We use people, use the mystic the mystic, use these words for facility. They don’t have any worthwhile explanation, what is heart? What is this? May be a teacher explains it as metaphysically, others mystically, the third one scientifically. And basically they use these words and phraseology for explaining certain conditions of mind so nafs is a word which is used for all negative qualities of man. And Qalb is a name which is used for a balanced sheet which has fifty percent both. And Rooh is used for the utmost purification of life. There are three mental conditions. I have never found a difference between Rooh and nafs and all this because to me they all work together this way or that way.

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I find the explanation interesting, but could it not be a metaphor for the positiver and negative drives in human emotions? The model you have described works without the need for divine or satanic drives - just human ones.

Is not soul self?

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Is not soul self?

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I'm not sure about in the religious context, but in life, no. The question reminds me of the scattered bits I've read on Internal Family Systems (IFS). The self has many "parts" – parts that suffer so much we avoid and suppress them; parts that try to manage all of our emotions and pull us through life; parts that resort to desperate, impulsive coping techniques when the managing parts fail (self-injuring behaviors, for instance).

Whether or not that makes sense, essentially everybody has a sort of Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). In actual DID the difference is that the parts don't recognize each other.

For instance, in one person there can be a parenting part, a spouse part, a traumatized kid part, an addict part, etc., with each part behaving slightly differently (the parent might be stricter, the spouse more indulgent).

The self is the combination of all of them. The soul I'd say is the spiritual/religious part if such a part is relevant.

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Originally Posted by cl154576

I'm not sure about in the religious context, but in life, no. The question reminds me of the scattered bits I've read on Internal Family Systems (IFS). The self has many "parts" – parts that suffer so much we avoid and suppress them; parts that try to manage all of our emotions and pull us through life; parts that resort to desperate, impulsive coping techniques when the managing parts fail (self-injuring behaviors, for instance).

Whether or not that makes sense, essentially everybody has a sort of Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). In actual DID the difference is that the parts don't recognize each other.

For instance, in one person there can be a parenting part, a spouse part, a traumatized kid part, an addict part, etc., with each part behaving slightly differently (the parent might be stricter, the spouse more indulgent).

The self is the combination of all of them. The soul I'd say is the spiritual/religious part if such a part is relevant.

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Are you saying that the self performs like the different actors in a play, independently in each role? Is the self no more than a circus monkey that jumps from role to role? Who is the ringmaster in this circus? Are we just a compartment of masks? Is the soul phoney like everything else? The soul is our genuine self, it is the task of all to get in touch with their soul.

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

is not soul self?
Are you saying that the self performs like the different actors in a play, independently in each role? Is the self no more than a circus monkey that jumps from role to role? Who is the ringmaster in this circus? Are we just a compartment of masks? Is the soul phoney like everything else? The soul is our genuine self, it is the task of all to get in touch with their soul.

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No. Soul is not self. These are opposite of each other. For more clarification, soul, as you said it is the task of all to get in touch with their soul. Why? Coz soul knows everything, the ultimate reality, soul has no other wish except Lord. Soul is like a guest from Lord in our body.Body! Captured by self, who always want to live on earth but the soul always want to get back towards the lord. Mind is the attribute of Soul.
You asked “who is ringmaster in this circus?” it’s a very good question indeed! Well i like to explain it with an example but besides example i have to say that all things work together.
Your body is like a county/city/country/world/universe :) better word for the sake of example is city. But indeed every person is a sample of universe indeed a universe itself, anyway.
Who is the ringmaster?!? So your body is a city, where you appointed a governor which is self. This governor is very very greedy! And greediness leads many bad qualities as well u know. You have a prime minister which is your mind. This P.M always gives suggestions and clear you against the governor. Body parts like legs and arms are your economical and financial sectors. Eyes and ears are information sectors. Anger is a Police head. If you don’t keep the P.H under your control it will destroy each n everything. You are the king and I mean you as Heart. Heart is the king heart is the ringmaster. Everyone feel happiness and pleasure to obey the heart. If Heart orders then no one deny him. That king will be successful who listen to his P.M, always have an eye on governor and appoint anger on both of them. These all are necessary for his government so handle them nicely. Hint: Governor can be trained and trimmed through knowledge easily.
So heart is like a court/place as explained in my respected teacher explanation as well. I once again request you to read the article coz i know my knowlegde is far low than my teachers.
And thank you very much that I took a lot of time of yours.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

But I didn't say it was an argument for his existence. I was saying that it's not a very convincing argument promote belief in it. You could say the same about forms of gambling. my dear! you didnt say it was an argument and on the other side you are saying its not convincing argument.? its not rocket science which i wrote. its very simple. very simple for those who read it with curosity to learn/know without prejudices.

So you're saying that God leaving people to suffer means a development in the human mind. It promotes thnking and problem solving. without challenges, then the human mind doesn't progress/

be grow up! this is what we use for growing kids so that they can understand their responisiblities and think and conisder to pick the best choice.

If you are a believer in God and the Devil, then perhaps this would be convincing. Given the amount and depth of human and animal suffering, then don't find this convincing either.

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well you should read it again from the start daer :) i have already explained suffering or perfect scenario in my different posts. and if you or someone dont convinced, or someone is convinced what should i do? what i can do? everyone has own mind. but i know one thing , weaker mind(argument) cant stand before the stronger one. So in Quran as well Lord says , whoever lives lives with argument whoever dies,die by argument.

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

No. Soul is not self. These are opposite of each other. For more clarification, soul, as you said it is the task of all to get in touch with their soul. Why? Coz soul knows everything, the ultimate reality, soul has no other wish except Lord. Soul is like a guest from Lord in our body.Body! Captured by self, who always want to live on earth but the soul always want to get back towards the lord. Mind is the attribute of Soul.
You asked “who is ringmaster in this circus?” it’s a very good question indeed! Well i like to explain it with an example but besides example i have to say that all things work together.
Your body is like a county/city/country/world/universe :) better word for the sake of example is city. But indeed every person is a sample of universe indeed a universe itself, anyway.
Who is the ringmaster?!? So your body is a city, where you appointed a governor which is self. This governor is very very greedy! And greediness leads many bad qualities as well u know. You have a prime minister which is your mind. This P.M always gives suggestions and clear you against the governor. Body parts like legs and arms are your economical and financial sectors. Eyes and ears are information sectors. Anger is a Police head. If you don’t keep the P.H under your control it will destroy each n everything. You are the king and I mean you as Heart. Heart is the king heart is the ringmaster. Everyone feel happiness and pleasure to obey the heart. If Heart orders then no one deny him. That king will be successful who listen to his P.M, always have an eye on governor and appoint anger on both of them. These all are necessary for his government so handle them nicely. Hint: Governor can be trained and trimmed through knowledge easily.
So heart is like a court/place as explained in my respected teacher explanation as well. I once again request you to read the article coz i know my knowlegde is far low than my teachers.
And thank you very much that I took a lot of time of yours.

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Heart, mind and body - a very good combination.

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Is not soul self?

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There are various systems for looking at it, and as Usman says, the soul and self are different.

In Buddhism, the self is the sense of me that we have as we progress through our lives. The Buddhist view is that this self is determined by lots of factors, and as such is an amorphous, changeable, and you suggested phoney thing.

The Buddha, through his exploration through meditation, could not find a soul- which is supposed to be some eternal/ spiritual part of the human being. At that time the debate in India ranged between eternalism - we all, or potentially all - are eternal beings with a spiritual aspect, and on the other hand annihilation - that there is no spiritual part to humans and at death we die and end. (Does this debate sound familiar?- it rages in the religious texts section between the scientists and those proponents of most of the religions ad infinitum).

The Buddha developed the Middle way between these two extremes. The teachings say that whilst there is no eternal component in a human body that can be found and named, as they are all transient, the Karmic energy from a life causes the next life. this is the basis of reincarnation.

Usman says the mind is substantial, that it is soul. In humanism, the mind is located in the brain and nowhere else. Therefore the mind dies with the brain. In other words, we have no soul other than the thought of it.

Yes, that's where the Theistic (As in overall creator God) Religions and Buddhism part company. In Buddhism The Gods are seen as merely part of the Wheel of Life.

I have to say though, that the psychological view Usman has described is similar to the Buddhist view of the self as a struggle between the positive and negative urges of the self. The Buddhist view does not contain the symbology of satan and the Divine though.

I feel I can pop a bit of Buddhism in precisely because of this correlation. I'm not intending to highjack Usman's thread.

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Usman says the mind is substantial, that it is soul. In humanism, the mind is located in the brain and nowhere else. Therefore the mind dies with the brain. In other words, we have no soul other than the thought of it.

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Did i say so :)
i like those people who take time to consider. consider and consider again. reached at conclusion and then reconsider on the conclusion to refined the things. i love refinement law/procedure. and love to apply on mind,self, heart, my conclusions, and on everything i have.
well i dont say mind is substantial that it is soul. when did i say? may be i cant clear you according to your mind. well i said about these two (mind n soul) " mind is the attribute of soul" its just means a real mind always speak or advice of truth and good things like soul. simple.
Paulclem dear r u budhist?
i saw budhist teachings as well. i thought He was a prophet too. as in quran Allah says He didnt destroy any nation before He send His messenger/prophet there. before telling them their limits. i observe budha's rules dont contradict islam. but islam is too wider in concept/logic/explanation.

haha highjack the thread. well its happens often i saw it here as well. hey G L dont mind if i say you do it sometime ,, well let me tell you a secret i like G L :) we freinds often use this abbreviation, G.L (Gold Leaf) , what is ur name by the way G L

Ego is not a dirty word, people.