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That's just dishonest. There's always been debate. History isn't 5,000 years of spooning.
The contemporary artist produces works that emphasize hopelessness because he hates himself and feels like a loser not because of some awakening after an historical event. He's only vaguely aware of something in the past called WWII and probably totally unaware of anything that happened in WWI. Sorry mate - these folks just aren't to be trusted.
Prickly Pete-But what are you saying though? That 20th Century art in Europe took a self-confident tone?
DarkShadow- No, but art reflects the feelings of the times. Did World War I and II and the vast genocides inspire you with confidence for the future?
No less than the Crusades, or Napoleon, or Slavery, or the wanton destruction of Native Americans and their way of life..
I don't recall the crusades truly wreaking havoc upon the average European nation... unless we are speaking of Spain, and then it would seem that it was the European/Christian forces that were triumphant so they weren't likely to dwell upon the destruction of the Andalusian culture, the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims, the inquisition, or any such thing. It also must be recognized that artists were fully servants of the aristocracy and not likely to insert their own contradictory thoughts into the work. Nevertheless, the religious wars that tore Europe apart most certainly impacted the art work:
The "Triumph of Death" remained a major subject from the middle-ages through the Renaissance:
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Endless images extorted the viewer to "remember death" (momento mori):
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Numerous artworks presented the image of the young and healthy cut down by the plague:
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As in Poe's Masque of the Red Death, death was often represented as showing up among revelers (Read the introduction to Boccaccio's Decameron)
The Dance of Death was a common theme:
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Death was such an everyday occurrence... hangings, gallows, the death of loved ones from simple diseases... that the average person took death in stride... mocked it... made jokes about it. As Bruegel recognized, they were all dancing under the gallows:
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One of the first great works of art that was broadly accessible was the series of prints by Albrecht Durer... including the ever-popular Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse:
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As for the Napoleonic Wars, I can't say that Victor Hugo or Tolstoy presented a positive view of the war. Neither did Goya:
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And you want us to believe that African-American and Native-American art isn't filled with anger, sorrow, and frustration as a result of their experiences to this day?
But European art of the 20th century simply wallows in horror and ugliness, right...?
Hmmmm....
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Yep... those sad Modern European artists... nothing but images of horror and ugliness.
About as dishonest as your generalizations about modern art . . . :Yawn:Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly_pete
I would add more, but St Luke just pwned you and there doesn't seem to be the need.
This is just ignorant. Your dislike of art stems from, especially in your other thread on art, its inability to be directly utilitarian and applicable to the daily life. You haven't found reason to appreciate great art and are appearing more and more like an artistic iconoclast, unable of appreciating what lies beyond your narrow understanding of what is pertinent to life. Save us the inflammatory attacks on artists. I respect your right to disregard high art, not your insistence on dismantling it.Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly_pete
With Shakespeare's popularity, the question isn't the merit of his craft compared to that of Tolstoy or Zola. Rather, the audience finds more redeeming qualities to the writing and more affirming characteristics of humanity. There is more to ponder in Shakespeare's works than Tolstoy's. I'm sure we can agree Tolstoy is a fabulous writer. But is it really any question that an audience consistently favors the writer whose work is more affirming, thought-provoking, and pertinent to oneself?
The contemporary artist produces works that one feels is under-represented in the artistic domain, whether through medium, ideals or subject (although Stluke, as a practicing artist, can speak more to this than me, a college freshman). What the artist produces is not necessarily a reflection of the artist's own belief. It can instead reflect something that deserves attention. Suggesting the artwork is a direct representation of the artist's views is just as suggesting that Conrad is a racist for presenting the European perspective of Africa in Heart of Darkness. Sometimes the artist must operate through a persona or detach himself from his work in order to create something great or necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly_pete
You're right, it's probably not the art at all. More likely it's liberal politics that turns men into sissies.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
P.S. Two things. It's memento mori not momento mori, and isn't The Colossus no longer attributed to Goya?
You're right, it's probably not the art at all. More likely it's liberal politics that turns men into sissies.
AS opposed to Neo-Con politics that turns them into mindless sociopaths?
P.S. Two things. It's memento mori not momento mori, and isn't The Colossus no longer attributed to Goya?
I'll have to get that Latin Spell Check installed.:sosp:
As for The Colossus... the attribution's still up in the air. There are supposed "problems" with weak brushwork that suggests the painting wasn't by Goya's hand... but no alternative has been suggested that seems capable of so audacious an image. It is quite possible that the painting was completed by an assistant or a copy by an assistant or based upon a lost drawing by the master.
But Asensio Julia, Goya's assistant, signed it with his initials.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
He may be right from some perspective. Women can be equal to men in everything they do but the social constructs or structures never favored them. That is why we must agree that women's writings could not equal males. I however am sure that in future some new females will emerge who will not only equal them but will also outshine them. I can predict given the enthusiasm is seen in them
Sorrow is one thing - the hopelessness, pointlessness, and the totaly futility of accomplishing anything in life through rational calculation is something different entirely. If you don't think a good deal of contemporary art manifests these feelings (possibly also described as "Middle Class Vacuity" or the "Emptiness of Modern Life") then you haven't been doing your homework. Simple as that.Quote:
And you want us to believe that African-American and Native-American art isn't filled with anger, sorrow, and frustration as a result of their experiences to this day?
Drkshadow seems more accutely aware of this than you and tries to attribute it to WWI the Holocaust or some other historical event. He's right to an extent but I think its more based on a real sense of powerlessness that people have. I'm not saying its WRONG to have these feelings or for an artist to express those feelings, but to deny that they exist on a massive scale - especially in the art community - is simply turning a blind eye. No other way to describe it.
I think it's you who are doing too much homework actually, because you're just echoing platitudes about "contemporary art" which are instilled in any art 101 class you care to take. But let's not veer too much off topic now peoplez.Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly_pete
Your contention is that the canon is formed by some sort of patriarchal authority favoring men over women? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'd just like you to elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I don't get it. So you're saying that its impossible that art could express the hopelessness or purposelessness of existence? Because to me it seems blatantly obvious that this is a recurring theme not just in painting or literature but in television and popular music as well. Can art only express pretty things? Give me a break.
But Asensio Julia, Goya's assistant, signed it with his initials.
Yes... and no lesser artist could possibly ever make an attempt to claim a greater artist's efforts as his own. Seriously, the painting is so dark to start with and in such poor condition (the Prado is notorious for not having cleaned many of its paintings) that it is impossible for me to offer a personal opinion as I might on another's artist's works. For example, I have seen enough paintings by Rubens in good reproduction and in real life to recognize any number of works in various museums as having been completed by another's hand. Considering the fact that the "experts" themselves are far from agreement I'll settle for "Attributed to Goya).
What I thought people objected was the fact that you attribute hopelessness and purposelessness only to contemporary art... But as I say this is a discussion to be had somewhere elseQuote:
Originally Posted by prickly_pete
Contemporary art does seem to have a fixation on weakness, hopelessness, irrationality - things of that nature. I don't think this is an unfair generalization especially since these feelings exist on a massive scale in our society. Depression, abnormal sexual appetites, insatiable quest of money and status, mood equalizers being prescribed by the tens of millions, thearpy, suicide, drug-use, explosive murder rates...one doesn't need to look very far to see this...
...provided their eyes are open that is...
Those things existed just as much before the modern era