Ignorance is bliss?

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Originally Posted by ftil

Ok. But what about western women and the reason of divorce as you said, “The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice."

Are you saying that western women got too much education……..that knowledge is an obstacle and stands on their way of being happily married? :brow:
It sounds that consciousness is really bad…….women may discover mistreatment, for example. :smilewinkgrin:

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Quite the contrary of your understanding of my statement, western women are freer than their counter-parts eastern and that is why they have taken bolder steps to live separately, yet freely and independently though a little stressfully.

Ignorance is bliss for the person who is ignorant... Much to the chagrin of those who have to endure it.

If ignorance is bliss.....

Then "competence, cultivation, education, experience, intelligence, knowledge, literacy, talent, wisdom" leads to "grief, misery, sorrow, unhappiness, upset" .......(opposite-dictionary.com)

There is a flaw in the argument somewhere!!

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Originally Posted by osho

Quite the contrary of your understanding of my statement, western women are freer than their counter-parts eastern and that is why they have taken bolder steps to live separately, yet freely and independently though a little stressfully.

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We are on the same page now. Lol I misunderstood your words as you said,” too much conscious” I took it as your disapproval.
BTW, having consciousness is never “too much” :wink5:

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Originally Posted by ftil

We are on the same page now. Lol I misunderstood your words as you said,” too much conscious” I took it as your disapproval.
BTW, having consciousness is never “too much” :wink5:

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Maybe you are right and this is the slip of words that often gives a wrong message. And it is interesting this led to a series of discussions and that again made clear some of the points that needed clarity. That is the beauty of disagreement. Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.

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Originally Posted by YW1990

It's definitely bliss to have all of those.
Being immature means that people pardon you for your foolishness. True they will see you as immature and foolish but they also let you slide with that one. What gets you into trouble is also your get out of jail free card.
Without knowledge means less options. The less options you have the more satisfied you are. Knowing more only leads to more questions. And although knowing more can lead to happiness too, what we don't know can't hurt us.
Without responsibility? Well that's a no brainer. FREEDOM

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Interesting. Thank you for your post. :)

But does this freedom lead to happiness? Most philosophers argue that reaching our full potential as human beings is what makes us truly happy. What is freedom anyway? Freedom to do as you like? But if you have less options, how can you do what you want? I believe that one has to have power (more options) to be able to do what one wishes, at least if he lives in a civilized society. If you don't have power yourself, you rely on others that grant you power (like the government, law, civil rights, family etc). Or maybe you just mean freedom as in modern american political rhetoric, where it really doesn't mean anything other than something that most people see as a positive thing. :)

Also to not know something doesn't mean that it wouldn't be able to hurt us - we just don't know what is hurting us. I can understand that you probably mean your point in a more abstract level, but again if we get down to real life, ignorance isn't really that beneficial for human beings - it might seem to make life easier in an individual level, but in the end it just makes it a lot harder for all of us.

Hmm, this lead my thoughts to Wikileaks and other so called whistle-blower organizations. Does anyone have an opinion about them? Do we need all the information they would like to provide? Or are we better off not knowing? I don't ask this on a political level but rather on a philosophical one. Hopefully this doesn't go too off-topic.

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Originally Posted by osho

Maybe you are right and this is the slip of words that often gives a wrong message. And it is interesting this led to a series of discussions and that again made clear some of the points that needed clarity. That is the beauty of disagreement. Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.

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Hm…it is not a matter of being right or wrong. Even if we do our best to express our thoughts as clearly as possible, others may still misunderstand us. It is not our fault or theirs. I have noticed that when people clarify the controversial issues, they more likely find many similarities even though they disagreed in the first place.

Well, I don’t see agreement as dull and unromantic. There are values that are universal and I definitely agree on that. I view it as a matter of having a strong sense of self with which comes the freedom to let others be without the need to control what they think or do. :wink5:

You said it all!

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Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey

if we get down to real life, ignorance isn't really that beneficial for human beings - it might seem to make life easier in an individual level, but in the end it just makes it a lot harder for all of us.

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The individual level is how we experience both ignorance and bliss. Ignorance may not be beneficial for human beings, as in me being ignorant may not be very pleasant or understandable for someone else but if being ignorant equates to having bliss for the individual, then i'll find it hard to believe that that particular individual will give up his/her time of bliss for the good of others. Sounds selfish but it's true.

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Originally Posted by osho

Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.

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That is so romantic ( But i am a hopeless romantic so don't take that the wrong way )
You know, for the field of literature, art etc that is the topic most frequented by this forum, there comes a lot of cold, intellectuality with the terrain. I find it funny how for such an emotional terrain there comes such distanced logical responses and statements.

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Originally Posted by YW1990

The individual level is how we experience both ignorance and bliss. Ignorance may not be beneficial for human beings, as in me being ignorant may not be very pleasant or understandable for someone else but if being ignorant equates to having bliss for the individual, then i'll find it hard to believe that that particular individual will give up his/her time of bliss for the good of others. Sounds selfish but it's true.

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How exactly does one experience his own ignorance? :) Doesn't the experience of not knowing something lead to questions and ultimately to getting rid of ignorance? You may well be right about individuals valuing their own well-being over others, but you cannot really talk about happiness on a purely individual level, without bringing other people into the picture. We are constantly being influenced by other people and our own ignorance also affects them.

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Originally Posted by YW1990

That is so romantic ( But i am a hopeless romantic so don't take that the wrong way )
You know, for the field of literature, art etc that is the topic most frequented by this forum, there comes a lot of cold, intellectuality with the terrain. I find it funny how for such an emotional terrain there comes such distanced logical responses and statements.

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It is interesting what you said. Are you saying that people who are romantic don’t use their rational minds?

Ignorence isn't bliss. It's full of frustration and dependancy on others.

Smply not knowing about stuff might mean you're happier than knowing, but there's always the possibility of finding out and suffering more on relflecting about what you did in ignorence.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Ignorence isn't bliss. It's full of frustration and dependancy on others.

Smply not knowing about stuff might mean you're happier than knowing, but there's always the possibility of finding out and suffering more on relflecting about what you did in ignorence.

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I agree that the pain resulting from awakening from ignorance is quite high. It always involves sadness and a deep sense of loss that comes from realization what one has missed.

I am not sure if it involves frustration for ignorant person. But definitely it is a source of frustration for those who have to interact with the ignorant person. :brickwall

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Originally Posted by ftil

It is interesting what you said. Are you saying that people who are romantic don’t use their rational minds?

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It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others. There is a quote that defines romanticism that i learnt in literature and that is, " The Eye Turns Inward ". Romantics live more or less in an insular frame of mind. The world is idealized inside their head. That's why we get that sort of mentality of the " Genius artist " or " The Outsider " that are both highly romantic and sustained through the individual.

Being romantic isn't rational. Rationality involves intellectual reasoning and logic. It is not about how you feel or your ideas. It's about reality ( the idea of reality is contestable though, best left for another thread ). Being romantic is all about feelings, emotions, and ideals.

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Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey

How exactly does one experience his own ignorance? :) Doesn't the experience of not knowing something lead to questions and ultimately to getting rid of ignorance? You may well be right about individuals valuing their own well-being over others, but you cannot really talk about happiness on a purely individual level, without bringing other people into the picture. We are constantly being influenced by other people and our own ignorance also affects them.

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You trumped me!
We can't know if we're ignorant of something can we? Hmm you're right about that.

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Originally Posted by YW1990

It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others. There is a quote that defines romanticism that i learnt in literature and that is, " The Eye Turns Inward ". Romantics live more or less in an insular frame of mind. The world is idealized inside their head. That's why we get that sort of mentality of the " Genius artist " or " The Outsider " that are both highly romantic and sustained through the individual.

Being romantic isn't rational. Rationality involves intellectual reasoning and logic. It is not about how you feel or your ideas. It's about reality ( the idea of reality is contestable though, best left for another thread ). Being romantic is all about feelings, emotions, and ideals.

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You are talking about “genius artist”. I would like to go back to your previous post where you talked about “ distanced logical responses and statements.” Therefore, I asked you if romantics can’t use rational minds. I view a personality as more complex than being black or white such as being romantic run by emotions and feelings or not. People may be romantic yet they use rational minds when it is appropriate. Can you imagine discussion on the forums that is run exclusively by emotion and feelings? :wink5: