The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Still waiting for your input on "Vienna, master of the Seven Seas" Robert.

In the meantime, I am certain you'll never again attribute the Brandenburg concertos to Handel (as you did previously in this thread) and can but express the hope you'll first exchange "Gluck" with more concrete facts on the subject (on Handel and Bach being the same man) and then ONLY accompany your new answer with irony if you must.

A matter of aesthetics, you see.

To refresh your history:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=35779&page=2

and

http://www.uncg.edu/gar/courses/lixl...cktheGreat.htm

Now tell me all you know about Handel's relations to Antonio Cocchi and -another 18th century puzzle-Telemann and their compositions.

Regards

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

Good natured, certainly Gilliat... 'xcept for the devil in the details we call "science"!

Hi there Gilliat,

Yes, it's good natured. Yanni wants us to believe J.S. Bach didn't die in 1750 but became another composer. This neatly diverts us from the facts surrounding G.F. Handel's close association with half a dozen cardinals of the Roman Church in Rome and Venice (quite an achievement for a Lutheran from Germany in the early 18th century, you may agree) and Handel's close association with the occultist fraternities who polluted the entire music industry at the time of the so-called 'Enlightenment'. Since the manufacture of 'great' composers is not a new thing but is, in fact, the general rule in the 18th century. In the case of Handel fully supported by the aristocrats of the British Empire, themselves closely allied with Rome.

And, in the meantime -some Vitamin C (lol)

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ZFKI...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

---

It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

Burkas are apparently an essential face saving accessory not just in the muslim world.

...plus a blindfold is strongly suggested!

Christian Bach, on the other hand, is full of the new

idea. His life itself may well claim attention. It is

sufficiently remarkable that he almost alone of the great

Bach family which had for generations played a part

in the development of music in Germany, and was to

play such a part there for many years to come, broke

the traditions of his fathers, went to Italy for eight

years, even became a Catholic, and finally decided to

pass the last twenty years of his life in London. Though

the many stories of his extravagances and dissipations

have been most unrighteously exaggerated, he was none

the less of a gay, lighthearted and pleasure-loving na-

ture which is in sharp contrast to the graver and more

pious dispositions of his ancestors.

"The art of music : a comprehensive library of information for music lovers and musicians"

MarkBastable,

For an awful moment I was convinced you were falling head over heels in love with your own reflected lipstick. But your heart is elsewhere.

Here it is !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQGJyILPsw

and here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=IHai...eature=related



Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

---

Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1...eature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

Yanni,

As a consumer of textbooks on musical history have you ever wondered why virtually every area of human activity can be and obviously has been corrupted (areas such as politics, banking, commerce, the mass media, history books etc) but not ever the 'history of music' ? Does it ever occur to you that what you have been reading/consuming in matters of musical history has been 'managed' from the start ? Grossly managed. Wholesale ? And if not, why ?

The legend of Mozart copying down from memory a mass in Rome is a classic example. It is sheer nonsense. Of course it is. It's more than nonsense. It's a pack of lies. The truth is a score of the Allegri Miserere was available to the Mozarts in Vienna and elsewhere long before they ever got to Rome. The truth is Mozart and his father heard the work not once, but twice, right there in Rome. The truth is the manuscript scribbled down by Mozart was a publicity stunt that has disappeared. Nobody has ever studied it. The truth is this 'Mozart' version has never been seen nor once catalogued in all the works of 'Mozart' over the past 200 years, even as an arrangement. Which is strange if that achievement really plays such a part in his reputation, don't you agree ? The truth is the truth is not required in the Mozart industry. The truth is Charles Burney was a fraternity member in close contact with other fraternity members in Germany. For years. A stooge, in fact, of the British Empire. Whose elites were loyal to Rome. Whose daughter (and himself) were sponsored and even employed by the British elite families. The truth is Charles Burney was a notorious faker and liar. The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.

As for Felix Mendelssohn, you should realise that amongst his early 'helpers' was none other than Wolfgang von Goethe. An Illuminati member. And that Mendelssohn's own family were related to the Arnsteins of Vienna, at whose home Mozart first stayed on his arrival in Vienna in the 1780's. Just a coincidence, of course. In point of fact early works by Felix Mendelssohn include several that are NOT by Mendelssohn. Take, for example, the early Clarinet Sonata of the same 'Mendelssohn'. It has an entire movement stolen from a sonata by the virtually unknown Cartellieri. And how was that possible ? Well, Goethe was a close friend of Cartellieri's employer in Bohemia. And visited there several times. Cartellieri was involved after Mozart's death in preparing 'Mozart' operas for their eventual first publication. And Cartellieri remains, today, virtually unknown. As do countless others. Goethe was also a great supporter of the Mozart myth, as you may know.

As for JC Bach, he too was supported by the British Empire. And was from the time he first became associated with Hamburg. (A base for the East India Company in Germany, by the way). Britain at that time funding areas of Germany secretly. Including Bonn. And Hanover. Signor Cocchi would confirm this to you.

You should ask G.F. Handel about the musical miracles that are associated with Hamburg. Handel was recruited for the service of the same British Empire while there in Hamburg. That's where he was invited to Italy. And the house of Hanover, as you may know, became the kings of Britain in the early 18th century with George 1st. Just a coincidence, of course. The Guelph movement were very pleased with this German 'genius' and he and his music had already received the full approval and great assistance of many cardinals in Rome and Venice. (Together with the music of various Italian comoposers). As you know. Just a coincidence of course. The fact the first 7 operas of 'Handel' are not actually by G.F. Handel is of course mere coincidence. Thus the illusion of a 'protestant' king of England was highly successful. The public believed it. The Hanoverian Guelphs now ruled. A brilliant public relations scam. Rome was very happy with this. A Rome itself infested with Venetian occultism.

As for the House of Hanover, it would never become involved in manufacturing the careers of 'great' composers. Would it ? In the case of Mozart the German text found on the 'autograph' of Le Nozze di Figaro (and made much later) was supplied by none other than Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Knigge ( 1752 – 1796), a man whose curious life included his direct association with the early Bavarian Illuminati and (far less known) the fact he was a civil servant in Bavaria whose family had been financially assisted by the British monarchy. Documents at the British Library show this clearly. Knigge coming from Hanover himself and associated with Hanover until he died. Very British stuff !

Below is a picture of the same Knigge in his Hanoverian uniform. Just a coincidence, of course.

Really, Yanni, the manufacture of 'great' composers is not an opinion but a plain fact. Hidden under the varnish of the music industry.

Nothing, Yanni, is quite what it seems in the 'history of music'. Well, almost -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=eJDZ...eature=related


Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1...eature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

---

Telling me the obvious won't help in finding the solution to Handel/Bach real identity and links to the Kochs (in control of "things" then) who invented them to serve,as undercover agents and diplomats,their first Hanoverian Majesties, Kings George I&II.

Your "Krieger" (thread below) owes his existence to Johann Matheson (he wrote Krieger's basic biography, yet Matheson's own biography and music compositions and works is surpisingly "empty" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Mattheson and so -out of reach-is WIMA and its late founder, a Werner Icking, whose antique music archive is now in Texas(!) under a Christian Mondrup).

Matheson was a diplomat,composed seven or eight operas, wrote a music lexicon or two, left Hamburg at the same time as Handel (1722) after their alleged duel (hah-hah), looks like Handel, but is still offlimits.

Now tell me what you know about Handel's links to Antonio Cocchi and Georg Philipp Telemann who influenced, musically, JSBach's alleged sons much more than their shadowy father.

Telemann, the alleged "almost" Thomaskantor in Leipzig, 1722* (Bach's post), the one who later "almost" died shortly after Handel "almost" did(their 1754 correspondence- two letters only), who developed a new music notation method,just like-and simultaneously with -JJRousseau:

Neues musicalisches System (1742/3, published 1752).

In 1742 Rousseau moved definitively northward to Paris, carrying with him a new system of musical notation, a comedy, an opera, and a collection of poems.

Telemann, who was eversince "gardening" for the better part of his otherwise very productive life in diplomacy, just like Rousseau, his son.

Tele-man, who came from faraway!

Enjoy.

*Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 and 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings, where he met Isaac Newton with who he corresponded later on
http://www.vegetarisme.fr/Articles/i...?p=Cocchi.html

Yanni,

One of the more remarkable 'coincidences' of musical history - you might care to examine the list of the members of the short-lived 'Korrespondierenden Sozietät der Musicalischen Wissenschaften' (Corresponding Society of the Musical Sciences) actually founded by young Mizler (actually managed by the Lucchesini clan and by others in 1738). (Lucchesinis being of course ecclesiastical elites in Rome and Marquis in Lucca before that). And why not consider the role of Leipzig University in the musical 'counter-reformation' and the many career problems Bach had because of them ? The chronological list of that Society's members over its less than 20 years including -

1738: G. de Lucchesini; Lorenz Christoph Mizler (permanent secretary); G.H. Bümler
1739: C.G. Schröter, Heinrich Bokemeyer, Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767), Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel (1690-1749)
1742: G.F. Lingke
1743: M. Spiess, G. Venzky
1745: Georg Frideric Handel (1685-1759), U. Weiss
1746: C.H. Graun
1747: J.S. Bach (1685-1750), Georg Andreas Sorge (1703-1778), Carl Heinrich Graun 1703/4-1759), J.P. Kunzen
1748: Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (c1670-1746)
1751: J.C. Winter
1752: J.G. Kaltenbeck
1755: Leopold Mozart (1719-1787) (was invited to become its 20th member, but declined the invitation) - LOL !

Bach had refused association with Mizler's idea of that society for years. But by the late 1740's J.S. Bach had musical sons who faced the real possibility they would not find employment in their own careers. Music of J.S. Bach's kind was under great criticism, even in Leipzig. As you will know from a series of published complaints against it. The Lutheran Church found itself to be as divided in different ways as Rome itself. This was not good for the musical prospects of his sons. The natural thing for them to do was to get closer to the emerging cultural power of the British Empire. In Germany and England. Real as it was. And that's exactly what they did. The lure of money and popularity did the rest. Certainly with CPE Bach and JC Bach. You may also consider musical journalists with whom Leopold Mozart was associated, even before the time of Mozart's birth (in 1756).

Certainly, Telemann was in the same group as all the rest. He and his music was well known in Paris and he was far, far more extrovert with promoting his music than J.S. Bach. Telemann was a very different kind of man than Bach.

Rome wanted to snuff out the influence of Bach. So they showered all kinds of prizes on his sons. But they effectively shut down his music after his death, a few years later.

As far as Handel goes, it's not Bach who solves that. (He tried several times to meet Handel, as you know). Handel's career in Germany was artificially favoured from the start. Lawyers tend to do that. He went from obscurity to international fame with the full patronage of Rome (later, that of the British Empire aristocrats - themselves in league with Rome). The latest musical Manchurian Candidate would be invented in Hamburg, feted in Rome, and protected from the time of his arrival in England by British aristocats. With the input of various fine and today almost unknown Italian composers. Many of them based in London themselves.

I assure you members of the Cocchi were in close association with Handel and the ecclesiastical elites during his time in Italy. Although I don't immediately have the evidence to hand I will find it. Cocchis were of course fraternal managers of this nonsense. Even as recently as G. Cocchi and the boy Mozart in London as we've already said. It remains my view that this fraternity stuff hijacked the history of music. And that so much of music and musical achievement of the 18th century is pure fiction - manufactured like most of the rest. The truth obscured under the rubble on which the icons were built.

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8cN9...%20brandenburg

Consider works such as S. Taylor's 'The Huge Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to the works of other Composers' (Cambridge, 1906)

And what of this ? 3 days before his 1702 birthday G.F. Handel matriculated as a law student of the University of Halle. In that same year following his father's wishes, Handel enrolled to study civil law at the University of Halle but is also said to have been appointment in some capacity as an organist at the local Protestant cathedral. After less than a year Handel seems to have been very unsatisfied with organ playing since in 1703, he somehow moved to Hamburg, accepting a position as a violinist and harpsichordist in the opera house of the city. His teacher on both instruments is unknown. In any event he there met characters such as none other than Johann Mattheson, Christoph Graupner, and Reinhard Keiser and two operas, 'Almira' and 'Nero' were produced in 1705 over which Handel's authorship has never been settled. Some two years after this he somehow met the Italian Gian Gastone de Medici and is credited with having produced another two operas, 'Daphne' and 'Florindo' in 1708 though it remains strangely unclear if Handel even directed these performances himself in the Oper am Gansemarkt.

In 1706 Handel travelled for the first time to Italy at the invitation the same Gian Gastone de' Medici, whom he had met as long ago as 1703/1704 in Hamburg. Ferdinando, who had succeeded in making Florence the musical capital of Italy, was attracting the leading talents of his day and had a keen interest in opera. There Handel met librettist Antonio Salvi, with whom he would collaborate. Handel left for Rome and, as opera was temporarily banned there he composed sacred music for the Roman Catholic Clergy. Including the famous Dixit Dominus (1707) He is also credited with composing many cantatas in pastoral style for musical gatherings in the palace of no less than 3 Roman Cardinals Pietro Ottoboni, Benedetto Pamphili and Carlo Colonna. Two oratorios, 'La Resurrezione' and 'Il Trionfo del Tempo' are said to have been produced in a private setting for Ruspoli and Ottoboni in 1709 and 1710, respectively. Rodrigo, his first immature, but all-Italian opera, had been produced in the Cocomero theatre in Florence in 1707. 'Agrippina' was first produced in 1709 at Teatro San Giovanni Grisostomo, the prettiest theatre at Venice, owned by the Grimani's. That opera, with a libretto by another Roman Catholic cardinal (Vincenzo Grimani) ran for an unprecedented 27 performances. It showed remarkable maturity and certainly established Handel's reputation as a composer of opera. The audience, thunderstruck with the grandeur and sublimity of his style applauded for Il caro Sassone. He also visited London for the first time in 1710.

In the middle of June 1710 G.F. Handel next entered the service of the Elector of Hanover in Germany and was for the next 2 ½ years employed there as Kapellmeister. An event that was itself strange. But not as strange as his protracted absences from Hanover during most of this employment period. During which time he was for much of the time in Venice, Rome and London. Indeed, even his surviving payment records of Hanover are puzzling.

‘’Kapellmeister - George Friedrich Hendell - Kapellmeister

‘Mid-Summer 1710-Mid-Summer 1711’ - George Friedrich Hendell, Kapellmeister - 1000 Thalers

Mid-Summer 1711-Mid Summer 1712 - 1000 Thaler less deduction of 83 Thaler 12 Groschen

Midsummer 1712 - 500 Thaler for six months salary - finally paid in arrears in 1715

In London 1711 ‘Rinaldo’. In London again 1712. 1717 Employed by the Duke of Chandos

What is strange about this ? Well, Handel’s first appearance in London occurred within the time of his first year’s Hanover salary, from which no deductions were made. Nor was he even able to be in Hanover to collect his own salary in the middle of 1712.

In fact the circumstances surrounding Handel’s appointment as Kapellmeister at Hanover have always been described by those who have examined the subject to be ‘obscure’. Sources such as Chrysander only add to the strangeness by stating that both the existing Kapellmeister of Hanover, Steffani and Baron Kielmansegg were visiting Venice in early 1710 at the very same time as Handel. And, according to Kielmansegg’s family chronicles (published for the first time in the 20th century) Handel was offered the Hanover post of Kapellmeister while visiting Venice (‘Familien Chronik’ - Vienna 1910, P. 447).

After Handel’s return to Germany his speedy and ready acceptance as a music composing visitor at the musical court of Queen Anne in London (this coming several years before the accession of George 1st from Hanover) is again remarkable. Furthermore, his employment in Germany ended in June 1713. Almost a year and a half before the coronation of George as King of England.

And, as for music attributed to him during those years Handel was already being credited with having written music for the English court as early as 6th February 1711. For example, on the occasion of Queen Anne’s Birthday celebration. A report of that event states that -

‘The Queen’s birthday was observed with great solemnity, the court was extremely numerous and magnificent. The officers of state, foreign ministers, nobility and gentry, and particularly ladies, vying with each other as to who would most grace the occasion. Between one and two in the afternoon was performed a fine consort, being a dialogue in Italian, in Her Majesties praise, being set to music by the famous Mr Hendel, a Retainer at the court of Hanover in the post of Director of His Highness Chapel, and sung by Cavaliero Nicolini Grimaldi, and the other celebrated voices of the Italian opera, with which Her Majesty was extremely pleased’.

//

The attribution of music performed for a state ceremony in honour of the English queen by German composer from Hanover ( though sung in Italian) is also unusual in several senses. It marked a notable departure from well established convention. Records in London show in the years prior to 1711 show the music supplied for the birth celebrations of monarchs was only by English composers and sung to English texts provided by the English court Poet Laureate. And that’s not all. For the next 4 years (1711-15) this new Italianate arrangement continued - i.e. during the last 3 years of Queen Anne - and during the 1st year of George 1st’s own reign. (1715). There are no records of English commissions for musical odes and other music to be supplied to the English court by the court Poet Laureate during those years nor any for texts to be set by the resident London Master of the Queen’s Musik. Further mystifying Handel’s situation was the premiere of a 'Te Deum' that is traditionally attributed to him which was performed at St Paul’s Cathedral in London on 7th July 1713 - this only privately ‘attributed’ to Handel in a letter from Thomas Grote written to Hanover on 13th January that year (and still attributed to Handel today) although its premiere in London (widely reported in newspapers and journals of the time) say nothing of him being its composer. (They do, however, refer to Handel having been present at its rehearsals).

Again, one example from dozens -

Erba, Dionigi (d. Milan 1730). Italian composer. Related to the old noble Erba family originating at Como and thus to his contemporary, Cardinal Benedetto Erba Odescalchi, Archbishop of Milan. Eitner maintained they were brothers. From 1692 he was maestro di cappella of S Francesco, Milan, and from 1697 of S Maria presso S Celso there. The anthology in which his Cor triumpha exulta, respira appears also contains works by the Milanese composers Alessandro Besozzi (i), G.B. Brevi and Francesco Ballarotti, who collaborated on operas with Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though G.F. Handel did make a copy of it and borrowed copiously from it in his oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.

etc.

JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747, per you Mizler members list, explained thru political events-failed Stuart coup in Scotland: He could not very well appear as "Handel" again so he used "Bach").

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

quote from my timeline:

Hδndel’s notice in the score of ‘Jephta’: ‘Biss hierher komen den 13. Febr. 1751 verhindert worden wegen relaxation des gesichts meines linken auges’ (Got as far as this on Wednesday 13th February 1751, unable to go on owing to weakening of the sight in my left eye). He went to Cheltenham again until June 1751 (as reported inthe General Advertiser on June 15, 1751) [Deutsch, 1955]. After his return,Händel consulted Samuel Sharp, surgeon to Guy’s hospital, to undergo eye surgery. Sharp diagnosed ‘gutta serena’ (drop serene) which corresponds to the modern term of amaurosis, and which was then diagnosed in cases of ‘an abolition of the sight without any apparent cause or fault in the eyes’.

Of note: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...artists_03.pdf mentions no eye problems of Bach between 1745-and the above first symptom following his accident in continental Europe.

Regards.

Yanni,

The onus is on you to provide evidence of this. Not on anyone else. The music attributed to G.F. Handel is completely different from that of the music attributed to J.S. Bach. A child could see this. They were two different people.

As for the eyesight operation conducted on Bach and Handel by the same person (Taylor) this is a subject I have researched in detail. Taylor's association with the occultists of England (its ruling elites, Rome) and those of Rome/Venice being indisputable. In fact, Taylor was known as 'Cavaliere' Taylor and was an occulist to the papacy. If Bach and Handel were the same person why do both become members of Mizler's music society years apart ? No, it's nonsense, and you have to provide evidence instead of facts which clearly show the opposite. The operations to which you refer were NOT 'simultaneous'. They were years apart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747 explained thru political events-Stuart rebellion in Scotland).

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

---

28th July 1750 : J. S. Bach (65) dies in Leipzig soon after an unsuccessful eye operation by Rome approved oculist, John Taylor.

3rd November 1752 : G.F. Handel has eye operation ("couching" -- a procedure to treat cataracts) by William Bromfield, Surgeon to the Princess of Wales, to restore his sight. The operation is a short-term success.

'Simultaneous' ? Different countries and completely different dates. Different surgeons.

:confused5:

And Yanni will now explain the following if Bach and Handel were the same person -


July 28, 1750
Leipzig
Death of J.S. Bach dies in Leipzig

July 31, 1750
Leipzig
Burial at Johanniskirche, Leipzig.

Aug 7, 1750
Leipzig
Election of Johann Gottlob Harrer as replacement for J.S. Bach at the Thomaskantor (other applicants for his position including C.P.E. Bach, A.F. Graun, J.L. Krebs, J.G. Görner. And J. Trier)

Oct 2, 1750
Leipzig
Installation of Johann Gottlob Harrer as Thomaskantor in replacement to the documented death of J.S. Bach.

In Handel's case his eye operations were apparently not successful, or at least not permanently. On August 17, 1752, (2 years after Bach's death) the General Advertiser noted, "We hear that George Frederick Handel, Esq; the celebrated Composer of Musick was siezed [sic] a few Day's ago with a Paralytic Disorder in his Head, which has deprived him of Sight." The same journal informs us on November 4th Handel had again been "couched" by William Bromfield (1713-1792). Again the improvement was at best transient. In the summer of 1758, (now 8 years after Bach's death !) G.F. Handel was "couched" for a third time, again unsuccessfully. The surgeon this time was the well-known, self-promoting quack, John Taylor.

Thus, fully 8 years after Bach's death G.F. Handel was still undergoing eye surgery (his 3rd operation).

A small puzzle for Yanni !

No puzzle at all, Robert:

Handel, as Bach, was succesfully operated by Taylor in 1750 for the first time and that's why he trusted Taylor to operate on him again in 1758.

If the two were different persons (who kept themselves well informed of eachother, as competitors), Handel would have known Bach's death because of eye surgery complications and would not have trusted Taylor.

See: http://archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/rep...3/10/1427.pdf: Vol. 123 No. 10, October 2005, The Eyes of Johann Sebastian Bach , Richard H. C. Zegers, MD

The author is quite suspicious of Bach's alleged "death due to eye surgery complications". After tracing Bach's sole "sources" to CPEBach, WFBach and Forkel (he should also include "our" Koch imo)- and you and I know how "trustworthy" such sources are, don't we?- he concludes his article as follows:

Bach was buried anonymously, as was Mozart, 3 days after his death, in a grave without any obvious stone or mark, near the St Johannes Kirche in Leipzig. When the church was rebuilt in 1894, the alleged mortal remains of Bach were reburied in the church itself. After this church was heavily bombed during World War II, the alleged remains were moved to the St Thomas Kirche in Leipzig, where they still remain.
One can only speculate about the fate of this great composer. The only inarguable fact is the body of music Bach left us , sounding still as fresh today as it did the day he put it on paper. Whatever eye diseases Bach might have suffered during his life, they never stopped him from creating divine music

But you have still to tell me what you know of Handel's relations to Dr Antonio Cocchi (an eye specialist himself) focusing always on this same year of Handel/Bach's operation, death and resurection, 1750!

Check where Handel purchased his Rembrandt from, February 1750, to then make his will early June, return to Leipsig to die as Bach!

and another one for you:

Do you know of any musicologist who has ever compared similarities between Telemann's and Rousseau's new "music notation method"?

Regards.

And what did Mrs Bach think about this ? All those years in Leipzig ? How about Bach's children. They too are sons of G.F.Handel, right ?

And who was the Kapellmeister of Leipzig during the last 20 years of Handel's life ?

It gets more interesting by the minute !!!

:confused5: