My layman explanation of libertarianism

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Originally Posted by African_Love

Libertarians are opposed to aggressive violence and coercion (the threat of aggressive violence). Most people claim to be opposed to aggressive violence, in most circumstances, but libertarians are opposed to the initiation of non-defensive violence by anyone, including generally accepted authority figures. A government's authority is maintained through it's ability to initiate violence (how else could they force people to pay taxes or prevent them from doing illegal drugs, selling/purchasing sex, committing truancy etc. ?)

Libertarians believe in self-ownership which means that because you are the rightful 'owner' of your body and your life, you alone should have exclusive decision making control when it comes to your body and your life, so long as you don't deprive anyone else of this right. Some libertarians advocate small government (I don't understand how this would work, if a consistent libertarian believes that all taxation is theft), some are anarchists who advocate the abolition of governments. Some advocate capitalism or free market enterprise and some advocate voluntary communism.

Do you agree with the libertarian philosophy? Why or why not?

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This kind of ideology made sense in the past but in this day and age it is all table talk and nothing more. That is not a bad thing necessarily either. If there are any kind of answers concerning liberty than look at technology for answers. Technology for example might be able to place things in perspective. It might allow us to view a specific time period more accurately and than people would take libertarianism or whatever else and use it to place it in context, and be able to leave of it in those terms.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

It is not reasonable to argue that one starving person's desire to remain alive is equal to the desire of a well fed man for a filet mignon at dinner time, it would be justifiable to override one man's desire for a tasty meal to feed one who would otherwise die.

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Desire is in each man's heart, so one cannot truly know who desires more than the other. I would say that it is good to feed the hungry, so long as it is your food (your resources) that is feeding the person. (I am a charitable person who believes in giving of one's self) However, it is not good to take from the well fed man, in order to feed the starving one. Be weary of beginning the cycle of "take"; for once it starts you will find that there is always someone who sees their self worse off than you, and therefore they(according to your own principles) would have the right to take from you (even if you needed it).

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Originally Posted by JonathanLockely

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"Libertarians believe in self-ownership which means that because you are the rightful 'owner' of your body and your life, you alone should have exclusive decision making control when it comes to your body and your life, so long as you don't deprive anyone else of this right."

This is probably the only part I agree on. anything a person choose's to do should be legal, even self-destructive tendencies, so long as they don't interfere with others rights to do the same.

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If you agree with this, then it would seem you agree with the very essence of Libertarianism.

There are quite a few typical fallacies in this thread about libertarianism -- the general one that libertarians advocate a society where a dog-eat-dog corporate hegemony reigns supreme -- but this one, I think, deserves a closer look:

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

The goal of taxation is not to harm the individual, it is to benefit society as a whole, the harm to the individual is an unwanted side effect.

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It is ironic that libertarianism gets flak because of its airy idealism, yet some of the most common defenses of government intervention as the one I quoted deal with its "good intentions." On a very superficial level taxation seems like an honest function of government, but think about the contradiction there: how does society, which is composed of individuals first and foremost, benefit from the effective theft of its members' earnings? Libertarianism recognizes that the function of government is to protect the rights of its citizens. The only way to finance public spending is to reap the earnings of the individual's property, that property being his/her own labour, and in effect infringe on his/her rights. This should be immoral in any democratic society. Building new infrastructure or expanding entitlement programs may seem like loyal goals, but where do you get that money from? And by what right? If rights are to be inalienable they cannot be cherry-picked by government executives. The logic of social contract theory cannot work unless that contract, like all other contracts, is consensual and voluntary. Hence why J.S. Mill (not exactly a libertarian theorist but certainly important in advocating liberty) disparaged the ethical assumption of progressive taxation as beneficial for society.

Libertarianism is not anarchism. To put it simply, government is necessary as a referee between the affairs of individuals, but not a major player. There is debate among libertarians as to the practical applications of government, but I would say that since courts, legislatures, police, and military are tantamount in enforcing the law they require taxes. Other regulatory functions should be minimal. Libertarianism is also not corporatism. Corporations who advance purely on a government-granted privilege, whether it be through subsidies or through lobbyists who peddle special-interest laws, have no place in a truly free market. I don't wish to go much further with this point as I don't want to make this a discussion of current politics, but it can be seen today (and since the Great Depression) that "crony capitalism" is very popular during economic downturns.

There are many facets of libertarianism that I have not touched on, nor has the original poster. But Virgil put it most clearly. Libertarianism is just what its root word is: liberty. It has little to do with self-ownership (a contradiction in terms) nor is it utopian. On the other hand, trusting the government with funds reaped from private earnings is utopian. Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt or anything by Milton Friedman are great books for anyone interested in libertarian theory.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

It is ironic that libertarianism gets flak because of its airy idealism, yet some of the most common defenses of government intervention as the one I quoted deal with its "good intentions." On a very superficial level taxation seems like an honest function of government, but think about the contradiction there: how does society, which is composed of individuals first and foremost, benefit from the effective theft of its members' earnings?

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Let's first distance ourselves from politically loaded rhetoric, like calling taxation "theft". Firstly, I was using the Doctrine of Double Effect as merely one form of justifying taxation.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

Libertarianism recognizes that the function of government is to protect the rights of its citizens. The only way to finance public spending is to reap the earnings of the individual's property, that property being his/her own labour, and in effect infringe on his/her rights. This should be immoral in any democratic society. Building new infrastructure or expanding entitlement programs may seem like loyal goals, but where do you get that money from? And by what right? If rights are to be inalienable they cannot be cherry-picked by government executives. The logic of social contract theory cannot work unless that contract, like all other contracts, is consensual and voluntary. Hence why J.S. Mill (not exactly a libertarian theorist but certainly important in advocating liberty) disparaged the ethical assumption of progressive taxation as beneficial for society.

Libertarianism is not anarchism. To put it simply, government is necessary as a referee between the affairs of individuals, but not a major player. There is debate among libertarians as to the practical applications of government, but I would say that since courts, legislatures, police, and military are tantamount in enforcing the law they require taxes. Other regulatory functions should be minimal.

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As citizens in a Democracy, we decide our tax burden and system. The tax system has evolved by consent of the majority of people within Democratic states. Moreover, it is not logically consistent to say that you have to pay taxes to enforce the law but for nothing else. Why is it necessary to maintain the law, but not a base quality of living or public education? What is the purpose of a state if it can not protect and improve the interest of all members of the society. Natives in the Canadian Arctic have just as much a right, as Canadian citizens, to education and public services that they would otherwise never be able to afford.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Let's first distance ourselves from politically loaded rhetoric, like calling taxation "theft". Firstly, I was using the Doctrine of Double Effect as merely one form of justifying taxation.

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Taxation may not be as visible as a bank robbery or a mugging, but the action itself is still theft, albeit legal, socially accepted theft. Even if those taxes are taken in the name of the "common good," they have still been taken. Perhaps the word theft is more relevant to income taxes which are completely involuntary. Besides, I could have gone farther and called it slavery, but even I find that to be melodramatic. "Theft" states my point clearly enough.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

As citizens in a Democracy, we decide our tax burden and system. The tax system has evolved by consent of the majority of people within Democratic states. Moreover, it is not logically consistent to say that you have to pay taxes to enforce the law but for nothing else. Why is it necessary to maintain the law, but not a base quality of living or public education? What is the purpose of a state if it can not protect and improve the interest of all members of the society. Natives in the Canadian Arctic have just as much a right, as Canadian citizens, to education and public services that they would otherwise never be able to afford.

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In all of history I have never heard of a time when the citizens of a country decided to give their earnings to the government. Do you think Canadian citizens actually decided to maintain income tax, supposedly a temporary measure? We decide who our public officials are (though in many cases, like in Canada, they are appointed bureaucrats) but we do not decide the tax burden. When the government needs more funds they simply hike taxes through legislation. Sure, we can vote them out of office, and we can give them low approval ratings, but we do not play an active role in deciding legislation that interferes with our own lives. We have little to no control over regulatory functions of government and whether they decide to trust individuals in their affairs.

As for government and law, law is the only area where government can justifiably operate (with constitutional limits, of course) because the function of law is to, first and foremost, protect rights. Robbery, for example, when someone's property has been taken by force, requires government intervention to deal with in a rational manner. As the basis of law is force, the government should play a very minimal role in affairs that deal with voluntary exchanges between individuals. The government's role is not to give people tangible services at the expense of others (i.e. taxation). Some are more unfortunate than others; that, however, does not give government any privilege to trample individual rights for some greater good. Its role is to protect individual rights, not violate some and make up others.

I didn't think your Doctrine of Double Effect justified taxation. It places good intentions (though for all we know they are careless and rotten) above results. How can you serve the "rights" of one group while trampling the rights of the individual? How is that just?

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Originally Posted by JacobF

Taxation may not be as visible as a bank robbery or a mugging, but the action itself is still theft, albeit legal, socially accepted theft. Even if those taxes are taken in the name of the "common good," they have still been taken. Perhaps the word theft is more relevant to income taxes which are completely involuntary. Besides, I could have gone farther and called it slavery, but even I find that to be melodramatic. "Theft" states my point clearly enough.

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Oh. Kay.

So, in your libertarian utopia, who pays for roads, schools, the sewers, libraries, postal service, disaster services, and all the other things your taxes now pay for?

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As for government and law, law is the only area where government can justifiably operate (with constitutional limits, of course) because the function of law is to, first and foremost, protect rights. Robbery, for example, when someone's property has been taken by force, requires government intervention to deal with in a rational manner. As the basis of law is force, the government should play a very minimal role in affairs that deal with voluntary exchanges between individuals.

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You seem inordinately obsessed with individual rights like owning property. This seems like the basis for a pro-business perspective. But how are we supposed to ensure that businesses don't pollute, or practice discrimination? Is it part of individual rights to do these things, or do we have the right to demand that individuals don't do these things?

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The government's role is not to give people tangible services at the expense of others (i.e. taxation).

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To my mind, it is.

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Some are more unfortunate than others; that, however, does not give government any privilege to trample individual rights for some greater good. Its role is to protect individual rights, not violate some and make up others.

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Through what rational process did you decide that owning property is a right, but basic human needs aren't?

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Oh. Kay.

So, in your libertarian utopia, who pays for roads, schools, the sewers, libraries, postal service, disaster services, and all the other things your taxes now pay for?

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Private companies. You don't need a central body to hand out goods and services that people demand. To be honest I do not feel like going through each of those services and explaining the possible methods involved, so here is an article that deals with private funding of infrastructure: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9307

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

You seem inordinately obsessed with individual rights like owning property. This seems like the basis for a pro-business perspective. But how are we supposed to ensure that businesses don't pollute, or practice discrimination? Is it part of individual rights to do these things, or do we have the right to demand that individuals don't do these things?

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Perhaps to you it is an inordinate obsession, but individual rights are the only legitimate rights. If a business pollutes someone's property, there is obviously going to be a lawsuit involved. Again, the government's function is to intervene when rights are being violated, so individuals who have surrendered their rights by violating another person's rights deserve punishment.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

To my mind, it is.

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Care to back that up with reasons? I would like to know how a just society can pat itself on the back for serving the public interest while having no issue enforcing gratuitous taxes (and spending the funds poorly, too).

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Through what rational process did you decide that owning property is a right, but basic human needs aren't?

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You seem to be under the impression that individual rights only include property rights. The right to own property is important, but the right to your own liberty -- the will to pursue your own affairs without interference (hence, libertarianism) -- must be sacrosanct in any society that wishes to be free. Basic human needs on their own are not a right. In a perfect world, getting something for nothing would be a right, but it simply cannot be a right, as that good or service must be taken from the earnings of someone else. If we lived in a society where entitlement trumped liberty (more and more we do) the concept of rights would be defeated altogether. Acquiring basic needs through your own free will is a right.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

You seem to be under the impression that individual rights only include property rights. The right to own property is important, but the right to your own liberty -- the will to pursue your own affairs without interference (hence, libertarianism) -- must be sacrosanct in any society that wishes to be free. Basic human needs on their own are not a right. In a perfect world, getting something for nothing would be a right, but it simply cannot be a right, as that good or service must be taken from the earnings of someone else. If we lived in a society where entitlement trumped liberty (more and more we do) the concept of rights would be defeated altogether. Acquiring basic needs through your own free will is a right.

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It always impresses me how deeply cynical the libertarian vision is. At its core, there's this reactionary frontier mythos that has very little to do with life in postindustrial society. There's an attitude that the government is the only coercive body in modern life.

Worst of all is the idealization of industry as the agent of liberty, and the profit motive as the lifeblood of a free and prosperous society. That this predatory sensibility has survived the wars and economic upheavals that it has caused is a testimony to limitless self-delusion.

Regards,

Istvan

How can free-market capitalism, a system that does not use coercion, start a war?

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Worst of all is the idealization of industry as the agent of liberty, and the profit motive as the lifeblood of a free and prosperous society. That this predatory sensibility has survived the wars and economic upheavals that it has caused is a testimony to limitless self-delusion.

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Babbalanja, name one war or recession that was caused by free-market capitalism--just one, mind you--and be able to defend your finding.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

It always impresses me how deeply cynical the libertarian vision is. At its core, there's this reactionary frontier mythos that has very little to do with life in postindustrial society. There's an attitude that the government is the only coercive body in modern life.

Worst of all is the idealization of industry as the agent of liberty, and the profit motive as the lifeblood of a free and prosperous society. That this predatory sensibility has survived the wars and economic upheavals that it has caused is a testimony to limitless self-delusion.

Regards,

Istvan

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Cynical? Please. The belief that governments should command the affairs of individuals because they are not capable of managing themselves is the height of cynicism. I do not recall saying that industry is an agent of liberty, rather that government, through unconstitutional legislation, is a threat to liberty. Liberty is the will to do what one wishes so long as you do not violate the rights of others. It is inalienable. So naturally, any society that advocates liberty must advocate free markets. I am not against the role of government; I am only against the government's overstepping of its role. Barely a "reactionary frontier mythos."

It is because of the profit motive, that you deride as a predatory force, that prosperity has thrived in Canada, USA, and elsewhere. The sentiment that governments must, at all costs, protect society from evil greedy industrialists is a remnant of Marxist thought that has no bearing in reality. This is never backed up with reasons; it is simply stated as an irrefutable fact that one person's success leads to another person's despair. Is that not a much greater delusion? Those who are left alone to start their own ventures (see: the colonizing of America) are the ones who bring prosperity. Just look at productivity and employment rates today versus pre-Industrial times.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

Cynical? Please. The belief that governments should command the affairs of individuals because they are not capable of managing themselves is the height of cynicism. I do not recall saying that industry is an agent of liberty, rather that government, through unconstitutional legislation, is a threat to liberty. Liberty is the will to do what one wishes so long as you do not violate the rights of others. It is inalienable. So naturally, any society that advocates liberty must advocate free markets. I am not against the role of government; I am only against the government's overstepping of its role. Barely a "reactionary frontier mythos."

It is because of the profit motive, that you deride as a predatory force, that prosperity has thrived in Canada, USA, and elsewhere. The sentiment that governments must, at all costs, protect society from evil greedy industrialists is a remnant of Marxist thought that has no bearing in reality. This is never backed up with reasons; it is simply stated as an irrefutable fact that one person's success leads to another person's despair. Is that not a much greater delusion? Those who are left alone to start their own ventures (see: the colonizing of America) are the ones who bring prosperity. Just look at productivity and employment rates today versus pre-Industrial times.

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Outstanding response!! Five stars for you. :wink5:

http://www.contracosta.cc.ca.us/math/fivestar.gif

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Originally Posted by JacobF

It is because of the profit motive, that you deride as a predatory force, that prosperity has thrived in Canada, USA, and elsewhere. The sentiment that governments must, at all costs, protect society from evil greedy industrialists is a remnant of Marxist thought that has no bearing in reality.

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Oh, really? Ask a worker at a maquiladora, or some undocumented worker in a slaughterhouse in Texas. Ask the folks who lost their retirement plans when the greed party crashed in 2008. Ask the people who just got laid off Tuesday at the company I work for in Massachusetts. Maybe they'll have a different story to tell about the wonderful freedoms afforded them by this economic system.

You're the one who's arguing that capitalism is the best of all possible worlds, amigo. But the system isn't devised to meet human needs or even distribute goods and services, it's simply there to create wealth for a few at the expense of the vast majority. It's a system where people are simply factors of production on one end and consumers on the other. I have my problems with government, but unregulated greed is as destructive as any terrorism you could name.

Capitalism creates its own instability with its foundation in consumer spending. Numerous boom-and-bust cycles have resulted from unregulated market forces running their course. And as a result of its supply-and-demand logic, it creates ghastly inequities and rewards behavior that doesn't benefit the community in the least. During the Depression, farmers were destroying produce rather than flooding the market with it. This wasn't a weird aberration, this was exactly what we'd expect under such a system: the farmers are merely looking out for their own interests and don't want to lose their farms and homes. So while millions starve, crops burn. Freedom and liberty indeed.

I'm no Marxist, but I've seen the havoc wreaked on communities by the cynicism of an economic perspective that values profit over people. You yourself said human needs on their own are not a right, showing your contempt for the have-nots that this system creates. It's funny to hear Christians applauding you for your cynicism: Jesus continually admonished people for their materialism and stressed that riches were an obstacle to a virtuous life.

And it's in the best interests of our beneficent corporate overlords to make it seem like this is the only system that "works." If we don't like it, say the laissez-faire acolytes, the only alternative is to suffer in a totalitarian hellhole like the USSR or China. What we're supposed to ignore is that there are plenty of examples of moderate socialist societies like those in the UK and Scandinavia. I'm not claiming any of these nations is Utopia, but at least a realistic safety net is in place there to protect people from the predations of the free market.

And in the USA, we had a strong labor movement before Wilson decided to send men in masses overseas in WWI. It's no accident that in the intervening decades, it's become unpatriotic to criticize capitalism. It's now unfashionable to even point out that there's poor people in America, or to support programs to ameliorate their plight. Initiatives like the New Deal and the Great Society are looked at with macho scorn, if they're remembered at all. And unions are mocked as antiquated symbols of cronyism and inefficiency, as if there's no reason for working people to organize in the 21st century.

Since Reagan rewrote history for a populace that was desperate to hear patriotic lies instead of the ugly truth, the shakedown of the little guy has escalated. The tax burden has shifted from Wall Street to Main Street. More and more of the financial regulatory infrastructure put in place after the Depression eroded with every subsequent administration, until now speculators are making money not on production, not on money, not even on debt, but on risk. Google credit default swaps to get a picture of the sixty trillion dollar roulette wheel that pays big money when markets are at their least stable.

I've been told plenty of times that anyone who talks about 'meeting human needs' or 'the benefit of the community' is a hopeless Pollyanna who doesn't understand the realities of modern economics. Well, if I'm going to play Let's Pretend like the libertarians, I'd rather fantasize about a system that recognizes people rather than one that benefits by deceiving and exploiting them.

Regards,

Istvan

If I were the sort who said things like, Outstanding response!! Five stars for you and backed it up with an actual graphic of five stars, then that's what I'd be offering now, Bab.

However, I'd like to add a little to an observation you made in an earlier post...

At the core <of the libertarian vision>, there's this reactionary frontier mythos that has very little to do with life in postindustrial society.

I think it's more a kind of arrested development - a fixation at a moment of adolescent tantrum. You can't tell me what to do! I'm a grown-up!

The frontiersmen thing is a romanticisation of that impulse to escape from the parental home and get your own place, and it's deeply rooted in the American psyche because that's exactly how the country was founded, actually and metaphorically.

The problem with such behaviour now is exactly the same as it was then, which is that the pushing forward of frontiers - whether carried out by unwashed blokes in coonskin hats or by gleaming corporate capitalists - involves riding roughshod over anyone who happens to be living just beyond those ever-advancing frontiers.

But as the history of empires shows, the sacrosanct nature of individual rights does not, of course, apply to those who find themselves blamelessly in the way of the happy progress of freedom.

This was written in quite a hurry, so I hope that it is coherent.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Ask a worker at a maquiladora, or some undocumented worker in a slaughterhouse in Texas. Ask the folks who lost their retirement plans when the greed party crashed in 2008. Ask the people who just got laid off Tuesday at the company I work for in Massachusetts. Maybe they'll have a different story to tell about the wonderful freedoms afforded them by this economic system.

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Our "greed party" (by which I assume you mean prosperity) crashed, because of corrupt government regulation. Organizations such as Fanny-May and Freddie-Mac forced loans, tried fervently to hide the growing problem (that no one was paying back the loans), while all the while lining their pockets with the money they were supposedly helping the poor get houses with. ACORN--do I even have to go there? The organization is riddled with corruption and has agents offering help to pimps who want to start an under-age prostitution ring. The regulators are more corrupt than the businesses they regulate. Regulations are what have put us in this mess (for they allowed for over-spending and zero-saving); and yet you want more of this? And who do we choose to fix the problem we are in? the people who put us in it. Marvelous plan...truly marvelous. If something like a mild libertarianism isn't adopted here in the U.S. soon, we are headed for economic hell.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

During the Depression, farmers were destroying produce rather than flooding the market with it. This wasn't a weird aberration, this was exactly what we'd expect under such a system: the farmers are merely looking out for their own interests and don't want to lose their farms and homes. So while millions starve, crops burn. Freedom and liberty indeed.

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Are you attempting to make my point for me? Farmers burned their crops in the Depression because the government had stepped in and offered them money to not grow them or to burn them. (And interesting point, at this time Stalin was getting record numbers of crops from the Ukraine, yet starving the Ukrainians to the point of cannibalism.)

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Jesus continually admonished people for their materialism and stressed that riches were an obstacle to a virtuous life.

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Jesus also said if man does not work let him also not eat.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

moderate socialist societies like those in the UK.

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The UK is in the same state of economic recession that we are. Actually all the moderate socialist states are. Have you even heard of Greece? Moderate socialist states (which we are one) have been tried and are failing all around the world. The only exceptions to this being those that were intelligent enough to be saving all the while instead of spending.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

unions are mocked as antiquated symbols of cronyism and inefficiency, as if there's no reason for working people to organize in the 21st century.

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You do realize that GM had to be bailed out because they were catering to the every whim and want of the Unions. There are reasons for unionization; but Unions some how got the idea that the company was there to support them and not they who were there to support the company by creating products.

As for those undocumented workers, they are coming here to work for money to help feed their families back in Mexico. If you had your way, they'd be jobless and starving, because the people who think it is "only fair" that they get paid $30 an hour (plus pension) would have the job (or at least they would till the company went bankrupt from over spending). The only regulating there should be within a work place (and this is suspect to questioning) is how safe the work place is.