book-banning in the U.S.

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Has a European book publisher taken your book?

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Er, yeah, thanks.

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There are lots (tons actually, though the intenet is driving amny out of business) of magazines in the US looking for good writing to fill their pages. .

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Well, yes - them too.

But that's not the point I was making. I'm a suppoter of the phenomenon that the tension between creative impulse and market forces produces the most interesting and commercially viable work. That's just the grown-up stuff of being a writer.

I was simply saying that although interests (hello, Cindy in Hays) outside the creative (artsy writers) and the commercial (publishing sales projections) may exercise influence on the market reaction to a published work, what really matters is the tendency of multinational monoliths to homogenise their output in such a way that it neither excites me nor offends Cindy.

I'm all for books provoking controversy, and even bans. What worries me is that the tendency is for such books not even to get far enough to be banned.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Er, yeah, thanks.



Well, yes - them too.

But that's not the point I was making. I'm a suppoter of the phenomenon that the tension between creative impulse and market forces produces the most interesting and commercially viable work. That's just the grown-up stuff of being a writer.

I was simply saying that although interests (hello, Cindy in Hays) outside of the creative (artsy writers) and the commercial (publishing sales projections) may exercise influence on the market reaction to a published work ,what really matters is the tendency of multinational monoliths to homgenise their output in such a way that it neither excites me nor offends Cindy.

I'm all for books provoking controversy, and even bans. What worries me is that the tendency is for such books not even to get far enough to be banned.

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Hmm, well, I don't know how the decisions are made inside these book companies. I would venture to say that there are periods where the impulse is to homogenize and then a counter impulse builds to go away from it. I do think there are lots of avenues for people to get published. I see lots of variety on a book store tables. And look up self publishing.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Hmm, well, I don't know how the decisions are made inside these book companies.

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I do. And it's actually, at the editorial level, quite sane. A balance between the commerical and the creative. It's down to the predisposition of the most influential editors.

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I would venture to say that there are periods where the impulse is to homogenize and then a counter impulse builds to go away from it.

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True. But the people who are doing well out of the swing of the pendulum one way are unlikely to invest in a swing the other way. Look, for instance, at how the major record companies fought, at first, against the rise of punk.

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I do think there are lots of avenues for people to get published. I see lots of variety on a book store tables. And look up self publishing.

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Self-publishing is not punk, I'm afraid. The dynamics are just not viable, even if the product is top class. That's not where the paradigm shift will be forced.

But - I agree with you in principle. It'd be nice to believe that something will happen to seriously worry - for which read commercially terrify - the majors.

Then again, if my agent gets me a deal with Random House next year, I'm likely to stop worrying about this.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

If you want to publish whatever you wish, you are free to do so. No one has a right to force me or my children to read it.

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Easy there, chief. Nobody's saying you have to read it to your children. But lobbying to have it removed from libraries and bookstores smacks of "banning," don't you think?

And would you mind explaining what it is about And Tango Makes Three you find so personally objectionable? I mean, it's a children's book about a family of penguins with same-sex parents. If it were anyone but you, Virgil, I'd suspect that bigotry were coming into play here. However, I know that's out of the question.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Easy there, chief. Nobody's saying you have to read it to your children. But lobbying to have it removed from libraries and bookstores smacks of "banning," don't you think?

And would you mind explaining what it is about And Tango Makes Three you find so personally objectionable? I mean, it's a children's book about a family of penguins with same-sex parents. If it were anyone but you, Virgil, I'd suspect that bigotry were coming into play here. However, I know that's out of the question.

Regards,

Istvan

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Do people lobby to have books removed from bookstores? (If you answer yes to this question please prove some evidence). I have heard of books being challenged in libraries, but not bookstores.

I'm not sure removing a book from a library really makes a book "banned". People can still buy the book if they want, own the book, etc., if they really want the book that badly.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Easy there, chief. Nobody's saying you have to read it to your children. But lobbying to have it removed from libraries and bookstores smacks of "banning," don't you think?

And would you mind explaining what it is about And Tango Makes Three you find so personally objectionable? I mean, it's a children's book about a family of penguins with same-sex parents. If it were anyone but you, Virgil, I'd suspect that bigotry were coming into play here. However, I know that's out of the question.

Regards,

Istvan

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I've never seen anyone try to remove it from bookstores or libraries. The only instance I have heard this book mentioned was in relation to a school.

When I feel an appropriate age for my child to learn about homosexuality, I will gladly do so, and I have no bigotry toward homosexuals. I don't think kindergarden is the approriate age to learn about any sexuality.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I do. And it's actually, at the editorial level, quite sane. A balance between the commerical and the creative. It's down to the predisposition of the most influential editors.



True. But the people who are doing well out of the swing of the pendulum one way are unlikely to invest in a swing the other way. Look, for instance, at how the major record companies fought, at first, against the rise of punk.




Self-publishing is not punk, I'm afraid. The dynamics are just not viable, even if the product is top class. That's not where the paradigm shift will be forced.

But - I agree with you in principle. It'd be nice to believe that something will happen to seriously worry - for which read commercially terrify - the majors.

Then again, if my agent gets me a deal with Random House next year, I'm likely to stop worrying about this.

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Thank you Mark.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Lady Chatterley's Lover was the subject of a hgh profile court case in England. Of course when it went on sale it sold a mint. This ws JBI's point earlier. It just served to publicise it.

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I tend to think the fuss over Chatterley was overblown even if one takes into account the obscenity laws that Lawrence had to skirt-- a few generations earlier, the Victorians floated so called "dirty cards" of women in various sexual poses that authors like Henry James and his realist associates were certainly aware of.

I tend to think Lawrence hit a political nerve of some sort, much like Flaubert, because the novel really isn't about why healthy sex for women is a good idea. There are other things going on in the narrative.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Do people lobby to have books removed from bookstores? (If you answer yes to this question please prove some evidence). I have heard of books being challenged in libraries, but not bookstores.

I'm not sure removing a book from a library really makes a book "banned". People can still buy the book if they want, own the book, etc., if they really want the book that badly.

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Well, there are certainly degrees of censorship, but should we look with a kind eye upon even the mildest of it's forms? Is it not censorship if it only effects people with no disposable income?

I read somewhere about Americans burning loads of copies of The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe, probably copies people had actually bought to intentionally burn as a protest about something. I was wondering, if it actually happened, which State it was in? It seems the protesters believed that the books promoted a belief in the supernatural (yeah, like the Bible doesn't) & the occult. I also believe some of the Harry Potter novels were burned by some protesters for similar reasons. Mind you, I bet the Potter novels make good fire-lighters! :lol:

Plus, I found this.

Redheaded. I thought this sentence from your link was worth pasting on here.

The city warned me they would intervene if I burned [the Potter books]," ... "because of the toxic emissions (from) the ink.

I seems there are greater forces at work here.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Redheaded. I thought this sentence from your link was worth pasting on here.

The city warned me they would intervene if I burned [the Potter books]," ... "because of the toxic emissions (from) the ink.

I seems there are greater forces at work here.

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Yes, forces almost beyond human comprehension I think...

Not long ago I read "Places I Never Meant to Be" (Edited by Judy Bloom). I was a collection of short stories from authors who have been censored/banned in the US. Quite frankly I found some of the reasons for censorship ridiculous - but most were banned 10-20 years ago.

About 5 years ago "Forbidden Love" was removed from bookstores in Australia - though this was due to the questionable accuracy of the facts (rather than "obscene" content).

Other than this I only know of one other book banned in Australia - "The Peaceful Pill Handbook" - which gives instructions on how to perform euthanasia and suicide...

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Do people lobby to have books removed from bookstores? (If you answer yes to this question please prove some evidence). I have heard of books being challenged in libraries, but not bookstores.

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I don't have any evidence of bookstores, your post just reminded me of something.

In my highschool library, a group of Christians showed up every couple of weeks and put little cross stickers on all of the books that they deemed "healthy" and removed the books that they deemed "inappropriate." They didn't have permission from the librarian, they just did it (and the library was so small and security was so lax that the got away with it every time). We never saw them doing it, it could have been overzealous kids (but our library was also the public library at night, so it really could have been anyone). It's so irritating when you're trying to research the occult for a school project and all of the books on occultism have been stolen.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

Well, there are certainly degrees of censorship, but should we look with a kind eye upon even the mildest of it's forms? Is it not censorship if it only effects people with no disposable income?

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The economic element to it is a good point, Mortal.

Personally, piggybacking off Red-Headed and JBI's comments, if I ever publish a book I would be so lucky that conservative Christians should grow angry enough that they purchased all my books for the sake of burning them. Free publicity with a touch of controversy for the newspapers, plus the idiots bought all my books and are giving me royalty money!

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

if I ever publish a book I would be so lucky that conservative Christians should grow angry enough that they purchased all my books for the sake of burning them. Free publicity with a touch of controversy for the newspapers, plus the idiots bought all my books and are giving me royalty money!

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Yeah...there's no such thing as bad publicity! ;)