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Yes I heard it. It was as close to an apology without apologizing. What gets me is he can go all over the world apologising for all sorts of bull **** and he can't come out with a decent apology to our own police officers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bean
I am pretty sure that if all of the police officers involved had been black, nothing would have been heard of the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Bull****. A coworker asked me if racist still exists and when I told him yes and started to tell him my stories he said it didn't count. Now why wouldn't my experiences count? If you've never experienced it you will never understand. I live in a place where it very much still exists, I've seen it as an outsider and I've seen it done to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Institutional racism certainly doesn't exist, to an extent. There can be company mandates, there can be equal opportunity programs but you can't tell me on an individual basis racism doesn't exist. I had to tell a boss to stop telling me racial jokes, twice. You can't tell me he doesn't have a bias against that group that can affect his decision making process, nor can you tell me my boss is the only one. In this day an age it's the little things that hurt the most - being followed around a store, snide comments, odd looks. Now I know every little slight or percieved slight may not be racial motivated but I can put you in touch with a lot of people who have had similar blatant racial issues that cannot be defended on any level.
However, I also do admit that racism can be seen where none exists, and that's why I have previously stated that one can't make sweeping judgements.
Institutional racism includes the media misrepresentation of certain racialized groups. During the media coverage of Hurricane Katrina, a Black individual is described as looting food supplies, while a white couple is described as finding food supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
First of all you don't say whether it was the very same media person making two separate analysis. I don't think in general the media is anywhere near racist. If anything it overwhelmingly accomodates the view of white racial bias. As it erroneously did in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanEagle
I hear italian jokes (I happen to be of Italian descent and some of them are pretty insulting), I hear Jewish jokes, I hear muslim jokes, I hear Catholic jokes, I hear polish jokes, I hear Irish jokes, I hear asian jokes, I hear American Indian jokes, I hear asian Indian jokes, I hear hispanic jokes, I hear redneck jokes, I hear black jokes. I hear all jokes. I hear women jokes, I hear men jokes, I hear gay jokes, I hear blonde jokes. So what?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
We agree. There is no institutionalized racism. The Professor Gates of the world , the Jesse jacksons of the world, the Al Sharptons of the world, the Rev Wrights of the world perpetuate a victumization mentality that has done more harm to African Americans because everything that happens for the negative is blamed as some racist action. Every one of those negative things happen to white people as well. If there is a slight bias to thinking blacks commit crimes, well just look at the ratio of crimes committed by blacks. It's perfectly rational (though unfair) to jump to that conclusion. But it does not mean they are being racist.
There are people with hate in their heart, whether it's hatred of blacks, or of other religions, or of northerners in the south or southerners in the north. There are people that think in that kind of mentality. Professor Gates obviously thinks in that kind of mentality. I doubt that will ever change. But that does not mean there is institutionalized racism. Among the highest earning ethnic groups in this country happen to be asian and muslim. If institutionalized racism existed, I doubt either of those groups would be doing so well.Quote:
However, I also do admit that racism can be seen where none exists, and that's why I have previously stated that one can't make sweeping judgements.
I leave you with the words of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant (in my opinion) thinker in the US. "If Jews had waited for the end of anti-semetism to make it in this country, they would still be waiting." Just ponder that for a while.
Ask your HR department about that. I am speaking of highly offensive derogatory jokes, My boss would have been fired had I gone to HR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Please read what I said again. I said racism exists, I have said that I have experienced it personally and as a bystander. It seems like you are trying to negate what I am saying because it doesn't fit your view of the world. It's way easier to take the stance that it doesn't exist rather then acknowledge that as a society we still have issues.Quote:
We agree. There is no institutionalized racism. The Professor Gates of the world , the Jesse jacksons of the world, the Al Sharptons of the world, the Rev Wrights of the world perpetuate a victumization mentality that has done more harm to African Americans because everything that happens for the negative is blamed as some racist action. Every one of those negative things happen to white people as well. If there is a slight bias to thinking blacks commit crimes, well just look at the ratio of crimes committed by blacks. It's perfectly rational (though unfair) to jump to that conclusion. But it does not mean they are being racist.
There are people with hate in their heart, whether it's hatred of blacks, or of other religions, or of northerners in the south or southerners in the north. There are people that think in that kind of mentality. Professor Gates obviously thinks in that kind of mentality. I doubt that will ever change. But that does not mean there is institutionalized racism. Among the highest earning ethnic groups in this country happen to be asian and muslim. If institutionalized racism existed, I doubt either of those groups would be doing so well.
No where have I said that racism is an excuse for anything. Why you would lump Dr. Gates in with the Rev. Wrights on that one incident? Being proud of your heritage and trying to advance and be a role model for other African Americans doesn't mean "perpetuate a victumization mentality" Dr. Gates has a PhD from Cambridge University does that sound like someone who is waiting for racism to end?Quote:
I leave you with the words of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant (in my opinion) thinker in the US. "If Jews had waited for the end of anti-semetism to make it in this country, they would still be waiting." Just ponder that for a while
I'm afraid this will turn into a "no it doesn't" - "yes it does" arguement. I have my experiences, you have yours.
Here's an interesting question - a classmate of mine pushed the argument to me, that when someone is rich, racism and race divisions no longer exist - he argued that Rich people, this is the really rich, generally don't look toward the race of someone, but rather their wallet, and that on the top, whatever the race, everything comes down to business, rather than "sociological" issues.
Anyone think that an interesting question?
I've known more than one rich (not sure what we consider a definition of rich) person who let out racial views. I don't think it means anything. I can see how being rich makes one look down on others and justify it with race.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
No, I mean toward other rich people, like would a rich American think himself better than a slightly richer Hong Konger? does that sort of division exist, or is there a sort of mutual respect attached to everyone with money by the rich?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I have a feeling, for instance, a lot of poor people justify their lack of success in racist banter, but how would that form itself in someone who essentially has nothing to gain by being racist, and nothing truly to complain about, relative to his own status in the world? .
Virgil, I live in a building and a city that is majority A.A., and being a white cripple in this environment isn't easy, and I experience backlash bias against me as much as I am biased against urban black culture--and yes, I am biased--not proud of it but without deliberately denigrating anyone, I admit it. 20 plus odd years in this city has made me loathe it, it's poverty, poor health, violence, but with this disclosed, I think you protest a bit much. I esteem PhD's, minority or otherwise, and I can see why Gates would react unpleasantly. I'd react unpleasantly if the Philadelphia police knocked on my public housing door demanding identification, and unlike Gates, I am poor, paranoid, and fear HUD like the devil come home to roost. Gates has to lose his burr up the butt, and so do the MA police.
But the old man shouldn't have been arrested. It was, indeed, stupid.
I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I know of no one that justifies anything in terms of genetic racial abilities. Race comes into play perhaps in terms of cultural and sub-cultural characteristics.Quote:
I have a feeling, for instance, a lot of poor people justify their lack of success in racist banter, but how would that form itself in someone who essentially has nothing to gain by being racist, and nothing truly to complain about, relative to his own status in the world? .
Feelings toward groups is not the same thing as racism. I doubt you really think that all blacks are criminals. I don't know if you know the facts of the Gates incident. He was not arrested for breaking into his house. He was arrested for the verbal tirade he went off on after they asked for identification. He was obviously beligerant and the police asked him to stop with the insults on two occaisions. The police had no idea he owned that house and no one hsa a right to be so beligerant when police are conducting an investigation. They had a call that someone was breaking into that house. When police ask me for something I accomodate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
To say that institutionalized racism does not exist is to ignore the foundation on which Canada and the United States was built. European colonists forcibly took Native lands, actively took measures to systematically annihilate the Native populations (smallpox blankets, deliberate slaughtering of their main food source: the buffalo, and just simply murdering them). Cultural genocide also took place through residential schools.
It is this history of colonialism and genocide that form the basis of how Native peoples are treated. Issues that affect Native populations are often ignored by the government, and there has yet to be an apology for the broken treaties.
In Canada, there are hundreds of missing Native women, and these cases go unnoticed by most Canadians because mainstream news outlets do not pick up the story. If these had been white women, the media would have been all over it.
The Canadian government continues to marginalize Native peoples to this day. In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued an apology for Canada's role in the creation of residential schools. However, he failed to mention that the Canadian government committed an act of genocide. According to the UN Genocide Convention, "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group," constitutes an act of genocide. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to fully acknowledge and take responsibility for their horrendous treatment of Natives, and this lack of accountability continues to this day. For example, Native communities suffer from a shortage of clean drinking water (Kashechewan water crisis in 2005). Many Native reserves continue to be under boil-water advisories. Does this happen in communities where whites are the majority? Probably not.
The lack of acknowledgement of the genocide of Native populations around the world is also a form of institutional racism. When one mentions the word 'genocide,' the first thing that pops to mind is the Holocaust. While I'm not diminishing the horrific events that occurred during the Nazi regime, why is it that the Holocaust is privileged over other genocides? There were more victims of Native genocide than in the Holocaust, and the motives were the same.
The Canadian government also fails to adequately provide money for Native students' post-secondary tuition. This isn't free money by any means because all of these monies have been pre-paid when the treaties were made. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to give money to Natives that is rightly theirs.
I realize that most of my examples are Canadian because that is where I live, but I'm sure that similar injustices occur in other parts of the world, and that institutional racism exists.
Oh, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant in the sense that "I got laid off today because all the jobs are going to them Chinese", or "the black people are sucking all the money out of the economy, and now I lost my job", or "it's because of the Jews that we lost the war."Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanEagle
There weren't more victims in this "native genocide" but that defeats the point (it wasn't an act of aggression that killed most of the people in these parts, but the exchange of diseases, which, for instance, wiped off literally the entire native population of Newfoundland).
The sort of pastoral picture you try to paint, though in a sense true, isn't exactly true either - for instance, if you read Samuel Hearne's travel log, you will note that these poor people had no problem going to massacre an Inuit (recorded as Esquimaux) encampment - racist and generational feuding exists even amongst these societies, and it was perhaps the introduction of Westerners that really made them destructive - was it not Champlain, for instance, who rode with the Hurons and set off a couple hundred years of hostility in the Quebec region? Of course, the White men weren't better, but to limit things to merely a colonial problem is to miss much of the point.
The residential school system is unjustifiable, and there are many social issues still rooted in it today - notably the fact that they gave these kids to clergymen, which everyone knows is a bad idea (and that isn't a jab, testimony has showed that these kids were severely sexually abused), but, in a sense, there are other factors to consider, for instance, Native Canadians don't pay many forms of tax, and don't pay tuition to schools.
Not that I am defending policy - I think the quality of life on reserves is pretty bleak, with rampant addiction and poor housing, but I am unsure whether to justify that as a "racist" program today, or as a generational problem that hasn't righted itself yet. There is certainly more nuance there.
That being said, I wouldn't doubt that many cops in Canada are racist - the ones in Toronto I would think are perhaps more tolerant, given that enough people on the force are of mixed descent, but I think the general feeling about cops is they are essentially the schoolyard bully with a gun and taser, and there is a reason why people do not like them, whereas people generally regard firefighters, for instance, as civil heroes.
Who knows though - my general view is that Canada is really two countries - based on the diversification of the population centre - people in Vancouver, I would think, are probably more tolerant than people in rural Alberta, simply because Vancouver is a diversified city, whereas in rural Alberta generally all the exposure to non-white, non-native Canadian perspectives are limited to press, or minimal exposure (generally these townships tend to have one Chinese restaurant, for instance, which sells Americanized food of low quality).
In truth though, political "correctness", or non-racism, is essentially a 70s or 80s phenomenon, which still hasn't taken hold. Small steps come, but they come slowly, because it's a generational problem that is very hard to remedy, and has a long history.
I think the best counter here would be the high immigration rate, which essentially makes people in major population centres diversified, and therefore less militantly racist, as in these places, everyone is something really (go to Universities like University of Toronto, for instance, and you notice that being racist is essentially impossible without a giant backlash, as when everyone is a minority, everyone generally feels a sympathy with other minorities, and isn't afraid to stand up for minority rights).
Who knows though, there is a huge anti-French sentiment, and anti-Anglophone sentiment from the Francophones, so perhaps that constitutes a form of generational anxiety - nothing that has been to violent or militant in recent years, but something which significantly bends policy - I think though, the country is coming to the point where the government is functioning in less of an ideological manner, and more in a pragmatic manner, with less emphasis put on the "leadership" than on the accounting - I only hope that we reach the point where the government functions only as an accountant, but I doubt that will come anytime soon.
The Ontario Finance Minister stated that the Canadian government should cut Native health funding and focus instead on "real people in real towns." Although he has apologized for that comment, I think that it sums up most politicians' views on Native peoples.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
The fact that he had to apologize says differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanEagle