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Sorry I don't wish to. This is my private life and I don't wish to elaborate. If you have never experienced it, you just don't know and there is no real way to really communicate it. I don't usually get into religious discussions. I wish you well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
Virgil
Hang in there. You are not away with the fairies. I was raised as a Catholic, and graduated (if that is the right word) first into an atheist (based upon logic), and then an agnostic (based upon the cause/effect argument).
After many years overseas, I entered a church in London on Ash Wednesday & quite simply broke down & was overwhelmed in my heart during the service. It was not something I could rationalise but it happened & I came back to my initial faith with no questions, just simple acceptance. I've since experienced the same intense feeling in the porch of a church in Mexico City & at the beginning of a Mass in Rome..Is it sensitivity to some Supreme Being? I dont know. I just accept it and am thankful for the peace it gives me.
I'm not into imposing or even trying to convince others. I know what I experienced & wonder at the intensity of feeling of those that have experienced (like Padre Pio) the development in their mortal bodies of stigmata.
I understand and share how you feel. As I wrote somewhere else: A map will only get you to where others have already been. If one the one hand "God" created us with free will, can "He" possibly have intended it that we give it all up in order to follow word for word what is written in any book attributed to "Him"?Quote:
Originally Posted by virginiawang
And if on the other hand there is no God, or at least no tangible evidence of one, why should we curtail whatever degree of free will we do have by committing ourselves to ancient myths and those armies of theologians who interpret those myths?
The free will bit, actually, is more commentary than anything else. Take Milton for example, the whole purpose of Paradise Lost was to show how God gives mankind the power to choose their fate, yet ultimately, the poem completely fails at proving that in the slightest bit. It merely says that Satan is not capable of repenting, whereas Mankind is - not that God created an illogical possibility that undermines determinate linear time.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin
Free will in itself though, is a theological assumption, rather than a scriptural-based birthright. I think people miss that - god knows everything, where is the freedom there, if all time is contained within God's knowledge?
But that is a different argument, and I don't wish to go into it in to much depth today, because It's my day off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ah. "Perhaps it's you that feels insecure."
How do you feel about discussing the use of the English language such as, simply to pull a topic out of the air, the meaning of 'metaphysical'?
Yours and, presumably, God's!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
The free-will assumption is pretty well negated in Genesis when Adam & Eve transgress the one prohibition God gives them and are immediately exiled from the Garden and sentenced to what we know, more or less, as tragic quotidian life.
Indeed. I can't really get behind a God who says, "Listen, you have free will. You can do what you like. Though - just so you know - if what you like isn't what I like, I'm going to banish you from my house, condemn you and all your ancestors as yet unborn to a life of suffering and, when that life is over, I'm going to judge you and if you're found wanting I shall be consigning you to the eternal flames. But - y'know - that apart, feel free. Knock yourself out."Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin
If a twelve-year-old took that attitude to an eight-year-old, you'd send him to his room with no dinner.
It's not even that - god is Omniscient, therefore he must have known they would eat the apple before he even created them (or created light for that matter). The creation of man alone undermines free will, as he created man with the knowledge that he would eat from the tree, in the same way that he, if we take Milton again, created Satan knowing he would break the peace in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The infuriating thing to me is that you are here applying plain, rational human logic, whereas any one of a platoon of theologians could twist the language of either Testament to make it mean the very opposite of what it appears to mean. As I wrote elsewhere: "Theists, when they interpret the Bible, can not only make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear; they have enough left over to clothe a bishop or two."Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Actually,you are right! I didn't comment on atheism because I don't know how is it to be atheist..Quote:
"you have no ground to comment, since you do not know what it feels like to be atheist."
If I insulted you in anyway I'm sorry because I didn't mean it..Forgive me:blush:..I'm just discussing you
I don't think that this example apply to here because there's alot of common things between men and women..whereas can you tell me what do believers and no-believers share cocerning there beliefs???Quote:
"Likewise, I am not allowed to have, by your logic, any thoughts regarding women's issues, because I am not a woman - and they can't comment on masculine issues or subjects either, since they are not men."
Of couse,how could you comment on the Italian language while you don't know a letter of it..It's nothing to do whether you are Italian or not..It has to do with your knowledge about Italian language..Quote:
"I'm not Italian, how could I possibly understand it"
If you study it then you can comment on it..Because only then you'll know everything about it and you comment on everything you know..!Quote:
"I might as well stop studying Italian and Italian literature"
I can't comment because I don't understand these criminal right? I agree of course..There are people that Understand those criminals and they deal with them because they understand their psyche..Quote:
"How can you punish criminals for sick offenses like pedophilia, without understanding the crime itself (in your words, committing the offense, and letting it into your heart)? How can you comment on anything you haven't done, by your logic?"
Noooo,that's not what I meant ...Quote:
"I could argue you do not know not knowing God properly, therefore, I think, you cannot possibly comment on this thread,"
But I have a question here to all the participants :
how can some people believe in the soul that is living in them while they can't see it???
How can they know that there's is a kind of soul but there's not any God???
I wouldn't know, I think of the soul as a metaphor for the human consciousness - nothing more. I don't believe, for instance, in an "actual soul", merely a poetic interpretation of the living spirit. There is no scientific logic in the existence of any "real soul", much less is their any grounding in it.
You are assuming that everyone believes in these magical souls that can move around and junk and leave the body and whatnot.
I call myself a "lapsed atheist" inasmuch as I realized that I could be as dogmatic in denying the existence of "God" as are those who believe deeply in him; neither position, as I see it, subject to proof. I adhere to Einstein's "I am a deeply religious non-believer..." inasmuch as one cannot but have a 'religious' feeling - awe & humility - in the face of one's own existence let alone that of the universe or multiverses as it is now thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
But, knowing as I do that there are many people, at least as intelligent and 'good' as I consider myself to be, who do believe, I've lamented the impossibility of speaking with them without either of us trying to convert the other.
I'm not trying to convert anyone - I merely challenged his assumption. If he believes in God or not is irrelevant - I have just as many believer friends as nonbelievers (though, the University scene here seems to be very, very secular, with, strangely enough, a very secular Buddhism being probably just as major in the circles I frequent as Christianity).Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin
But the point is not that, but the direct hostility coming in here and challenging the non-believer, without the desire to challenge his own beliefs - I challenge my beliefs daily, yet to come here and say I'm being closed minded for not questioning my atheism and allowing God into my heart seems a bit of a ludicrous statement.
The question of the soul, actually, starts before Christianity, and is more, in the west, a Greek invention than a Hebraic one - Pindar tried to find it, and alas, failed, and Plato and Aristotle did a fair number writing about it. The Jewish tradition, classical one that is, essentially considers the soul what I have described - the part of the mind that contains emotion and thought - not some transmigratory ethereal thing that can descend into other worlds. RamBam himself described the classical concept of the soul similar to the way I conceive of it; it as merely a metaphor for the consciousness, in the sense that I did, and not a physical entity that exists beyond the body.
The concept of the soul in Hinduism, for instance, is completely different, as the religious outlook on the world in Hinduism is completely different - likewise, the Buddhist concept of ever changing mind and body are directly in opposition to the belief in the Christian concept of soul - that too is at odds.
All this talk of souls is really good and dandy, except that it makes no sense outside of the context of Christianity - the metaphor of the soul has become a standard in our understanding of the world, but the theological soul, that is, the soul that "actually" exists and will move on to the afterlife is a mere religious-specific construct that holds no bearing on a non-believer.
I believe, when I die, I will rot, and then decompose, and then regrow into something else - Energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely altered in form. There is no incompatibility there - I don't need a God for where I'm going, only a will that says where.
but there is such a plethora of arguments supporting the existence of free will even with an Omniscient God...Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
one of the main ones being that God does not experience time in the linear fashion that we do. Therefore in experiencing all time at once God is not really determining our future choices but more experiencing them side by side with us... or at least I think that is what Catholicism kind of suggests... whereas Protestantism more follows along the path of saying that even though God is Omniscient and Omnipotent and Omnipresent, humans still ultimately have the final say in what they do... both these arguments have flaws which have been pointed out more than enough times :p
and then dropping into philosophy you get into soft and hard determinism, indeterminism, compatibilism, incompatibilism, metaphysical libertarianism, etc. etc.... there are so many differing views here, even without having an omniscient being in the Universe many still argue against the idea of free will... for if man is not the ultimate or originating cause of his actions can he truly be said to have free will? If determinism is true and all choices and actions are caused by events outside man's control, then man can't have free will as he is not "Causa Sui"...
but I've got to go eat breakfast now, so I'll just leave with a quote from Schopenhauer :D
The true picture of Spinoza's "Causa sui" is Baron Munchhausen encircling his horse with his legs, and raising himself and the horse upwards by means of his pigtail, with the inscription "Causa sui" written below
I don't think that we can call it MAGICAL..magical suggests that there's a kind of superhuman or a fairy that gave us souls and I don't believe in magic..Quote:
"these magical souls"
I also don't think our souls leave our bodies whenever they want...NO,they depart us only when we die..Quote:
"can move around and junk and leave the body and whatnot"
you say that there's no scientific evidence that proves the existance of the soul..ok is there any scientific evidance that denies it??
the thing is that the human nature (psychologically speaking) needs something to believe in..you can't live without some beliefs whatever they may be right??
Ok!
I wanted on day to visit an island near home...when I arrived at the seashore I found no ship to take me there...I sat down and waited..suddenly some wood came flying..it was cut and put by itself together to form a kind of a ship..It was made by itself and it carried me to the island...you will laugh a this stupid story..how can a ship be made by itself??
Now look at yourself! you are the most beautiful creature..were you made this random way???
Of course, just like you,I'm not trying to convert anybody..
Of course, but will it alter into the same form??I mean into another creature??Quote:
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely altered in form"
no .I don't think so..It will alter into another form..something that other creatures need..maybe dust..maybe by along time a kind of another chemical substance..
But may I ask : what energy are you talking about??can you explain to me!
I noticed something here : why do we quote from our favourite writers??:idea:
we are as clever as they were and maybe even more:idea::crash:... so why to let them think on our behalf??;)
why to approve on everything they wrote while we can fascinate them by our thoughts??:alien::idea: