The Falsity of Religion: Twelve Indisputable Arguments

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

I do not wish to offend anyone who does believe.

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So you follow the Liberal moral system which dictates that falsehoods should be perpetuated if exposing the fraud would end up with people being offended. Would you then support criminals because opposing them may hurt their feelings?

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However, I felt that I should add this: Asian-American, from what I can gather from your posts (in both this thread & the one which has been closed), you appear to more interested in arguing with people, and converting them to your viewpoint than having a normal civilised discussion of viewpoints.

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I disagree: I support academic debating, see Your beliefs though seem to be one that embraces "feel good" thinking: if something feels good, it must be proper, but if it makes anyone upset, it must be bad. It's rather "feelgoodness" that should determine everything, not where the facts stand. This is a typical tenet of Liberalism.

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Just in-case you missed it on entry to this area of the forum it quite clearly says "Remember to respect the beliefs of others."

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But based on your Liberal ideology, to "respect" someone's belief system, you must in fact capitulate to that person and deny your own beliefs, for doing otherwise would "offend" that person.

So, how do we define "respect"? I consider respect to be avoiding ad hominem attacks.

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Your posts about believers generally having a lower IQ than non-believers, is in no way respecting the beliefs of others

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Again, before you can say that, I suggest you define "respect" first.

Also, this thread includes the psychology behind superstition. Thus, the discussion of cognitive abilities and personality as to how they affect superstition is a valid topic.

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and if you do not wish to completely alienate the intelligent, thoughtfull, generous, good natured members of this forum, I would suggest that you cease post haste.

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So you suggest I capitulate to my opponents and denounce my world views so that your speculation of certain members leaving will not occur? Also, what do you mean by "thoughtful, generous, good natured" members? How are you defining these characterizations? And how do you quantitatively measure them? And how is it in my interest to falsely denounce my beliefs so that you are pleased?

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As a side note, statistics can be used to prove anything.

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Incorrect. Valid statistics can be used to prove many thing. The key is to separate between valid statistics and those based on poor research.

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For example, with little difficulty I could show using statistics that eating ice-cream at the beach kills people. However, all reasonable people would be aware that this aint true, it just means there are more people at the beach & as a result more people drown.

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Which again shows that one needs to separate between valid and poor statistics. I believe the IQ statistics are valid due 100 years of research on human intelligence, as well as decades of reseach on human behavior and personality.

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As the great Benjamin Disraeli said " There are three kinds of lies: Lies, D*mn Lies and Statistics"

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Proverbs is not the same thing as scientific research.

Regards :D

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Originally Posted by crisaor

Ah. You didn't say it, that's true. But you did post part of an article called The Falsity of Religion: Twelve Indisputable Arguments. And that's claiming failprof. You must at least support it in some way in order to post it, otherwise there'd be no point in it.

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Interesting point. Yes, the author, John Bryant, did state his argument in absolute terms. So, I will reject his absolutism, while at the same time holding his overall arguments as valid at least at the present moment, until alternate evidence is shown to debunk his claims.

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I see what you mean. But still, this is very far of being as conclusive as you approach it. It's merely a matter of statistics. A different sample universe might come up with the exact opposite result. That is very little justification for the point you're trying to make, generalising for the whole lot of people.

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Actually, the amount of research correlating IQ to rational thinking, academic achievement, and upwards social mobility is astounding. I am very confident in the validity of my claims. But, if you still don't agree, that is fine, I am not trying to emotionally force you to accept anything: you have to decide for yourself what reality means to you. Yes, I will share my views and try to convince you to accept them, but the final decision is yours.

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Well, it is my hypothesis. I'm sorry if it's not relevant to you.

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I don't think it's irrelevant, I actually found your posts interesting and philosophical. But in the end, my personality simply requires hard data before accepting anything as truth.

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And how would you prove religion is scientifically false? What are the false premises, or the wrong conclusions?

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Well, let me get philosophical: I believe no one can know absolute truth. So, we have to pick ways of making sense of the world in order to advance. To me, "truth" is limited to what can be deduced by logic and the scientific method. As such, since there is no scientific evidence for deities, souls, Hell, Heaven, and the like, I do not accept them as "truth." Plus, John Bryant and John Hartung have shown how many of the claims of mainstream religions are false in the scientific sense, though not necessarily in the philosophical sense.

Christianity is God's answer to the problem of humanity.

That said, Christ said: He who is not for me is against me.

Keeping things simple for those who are not caught up in the cliquishness of intelligentsia is what God desires most of all. Sin needs sacrifice to satisfy the holiness of God. Christ provides that sacrifice once and for all who in Faith believe in Him. Now I don't disrespect anyone else's view. And I would gladly argue for his or her right to state it here or anywhere. But each of us must realize that ultimately he or she will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ. He will ask if we knew him. What will you say?

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Originally Posted by SwiftSleigh7

Christianity is God's answer to the problem of humanity.

That said, Christ said: He who is not for me is against me.

Keeping things simple for those who are not caught up in the cliquishness of intelligentsia is what God desires most of all. Sin needs sacrifice to satisfy the holiness of God. Christ provides that sacrifice once and for all who in Faith believe in Him. Now I don't disrespect anyone else's view. And I would gladly argue for his or her right to state it here or anywhere. But each of us must realize that ultimately he or she will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ. He will ask if we knew him. What will you say?

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But what if Allah is the true God, and you find yourself before Him, and He asks you if you accepted Him, what would you say?

Second point: what if instead of being raised by Christians, you were raised by Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists? Would you not right now be claiming the absolute existence of Allah, or Shiva, or Buddah, claiming that those that have not accepted the respective diety would go to Hell?

Since religion requires no evidence, everything is fair game. Your parents may very well have been tree worshippers and you would now be proclaiming the abosute truth of the Tree Gods.

Cheers!

Actually I am liberal-minded enough to accept the possibility that God is bigger than any one sectarian perspective--but I am wise enough to temper that liberalism with an awareness that God is gracious enough to have provided a means by which all humans might make an informed decision for or against Christ. That is why the Christian Bible says that Christ will return for a church without spot or wrinkle only after the gospel has been preached throughout the entire world. With the Internet and the current state of missionary work mushrooming exponentially, that should not take as long as you might expect. So prepare yourself to make a choice; or make yours by default; either way, I hope you aren't so broad-minded that you allow your all your fuzzy gray matter to escape! Cheers to you to my friend.

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Originally Posted by SwiftSleigh7

but I am wise enough to temper that liberalism with an awareness that God is gracious enough to have provided a means by which all humans might make an informed decision for or against Christ.

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You are 100% confident that if you were raised as a Muslim or Hindu, you would have nevertheless ended up leaving those religions and accepting Christianity instead? I find that hard to believe, for there are currently one billion Muslims, one billion Hindus, and one billion Buddhists who have not decided to abandon their religion for Christ. What makes you think that you would have been the exception to those 3 billion people?

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So prepare yourself to make a choice; or make yours by default; either way, I hope you aren't so broad-minded that you allow your all your fuzzy gray matter to escape!

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So basically I am supposed to accept a random religion without any evidence provided as to the validity of it.

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Cheers to you to my friend.

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:D

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

You are 100% confident that if you were raised as a Muslim or Hindu, you would have nevertheless ended up leaving those religions and accepting Christianity instead? I find that hard to believe, for there are currently one billion Muslims, one billion Hindus, and one billion Buddhists who have not decided to abandon their religion for Christ. What makes you think that you would have been the exception to those 3 billion people?

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The proof that I would be the exception is in the calling of the Holy Spirit. Those who hear his call and respond by accepting Christ as their savior are chosen. There are many called but few will accept the call.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

So basically I am supposed to accept a random religion without any evidence provided as to the validity of it.

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Not a religion--a relationship--note the difference... don't ignore it or disdain it glibly unless you are willing to lightly blow off a chance to know the living God... and by the way, the evidence you look for is all around you in creation! Not to mention the fact that there is much more evidence awaiting you after you have entered the relationship. Kind of like a marriage--the love grows and manifests itself more clearly. Abundantly more clearly after you have made your vows and consecrated yourself to your spouse.



:D[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by SwiftSleigh7

The proof that I would be the exception is in the calling of the Holy Spirit. Those who hear his call and respond by accepting Christ as their savior are chosen. There are many called but few will accept the call.

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So you believe there is a supernatural entity called the Holy Ghost, and this entity communicated with those 3 billion non-Christians, and they told the entity that they were not interested? And what was the method of communication? Was it through sound waves or telepathically or something else? So if we were to ask those 3 billion non-Christians if they were contacted by the Holy Ghost, they would say that indeed the Holy Ghost made contact with them and they turned it down?

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the evidence you look for is all around you in creation!

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Can you be more specific please?

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Not to mention the fact that there is much more evidence awaiting you after you have entered the relationship.

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How can one believe in the existance of the Christian deities without the deities first producing the evidence? That would be like saying that one must first believe in the existance of Santa Clause, only then will Santa Clause provide evidence. This is impossible.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

So you believe there is a supernatural entity called the Holy Ghost,

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The Holy Spirit is part of the Tri-United Godhead: Christ the Son; God the Father; and the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

and this entity communicated with those 3 billion non-Christians, and they told the entity that they were not interested? And what was the method of communication? Was it through sound waves or telepathically or something else?

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It was through spiritual means... you have a spirit and it is in contact with God's spirit right now as we speak. You are engaged in a spiritual battle. Your intellect is a part of your will that is seeking to ignore the exigencies of the Holy Spirit. But don't let your mind and your emotions and your will ruin your opportunity of knowing the living God. For God is Spirit and those who come to him must worship him in spirit and truth.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

So if we were to ask those 3 billion non-Christians if they were contacted by the Holy Ghost, they would say that indeed the Holy Ghost made contact with them and they turned it down?

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I would never presume to speak for anyone else. They may make as many rationalizations as you have made, or none at all. They may live sensually. They may ignore the spiritual side of their lives entirely. Or they may choose to embrace another form of spirituality. How that affects their ultimate destiny only God can say. Judge not lest ye be not judged.




As for creation, and your question for specifics... imagine the lowly caterpillar who crawls and crawls until it is time to cocoon; the transformation that occurs is surely a symbolic representation of the ultimate spiritual freedom that Christians may one day receive through a personal relationship with God through Christ Jesus. This is only one example of the creation's messages many of which are abundantly clear.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

How can one believe in the existance of the Christian deities without the deities first producing the evidence? That would be like saying that one must first believe in the existance of Santa Clause, only then will Santa Clause provide evidence. This is impossible.

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God is the God of the Impossible. Nothing is impossible with God. Everything from the miracle of birth and nature attests to His Reality.

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it :D

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

So you follow the Liberal moral system which dictates that falsehoods should be perpetuated if exposing the fraud would end up with people being offended. Would you then support criminals because opposing them may hurt their feelings?

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You have no idea about my political leanings, I am not liberal (however, I have no problem with people who are), I am probably closest in definition to Socialist -though, Political discussion is not allowed here so I will not go into that. Also there is one huge difference between, allowing people to have faith in God and supporting criminals. A distinction that if you are unable/unwilling to see is not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

I disagree: I support academic debating, see Your beliefs though seem to be one that embraces "feel good" thinking: if something feels good, it must be proper, but if it makes anyone upset, it must be bad. It's rather "feelgoodness" that should determine everything, not where the facts stand. This is a typical tenet of Liberalism.

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So, am I to assume that you are in favour of making people feel like crap?

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

But based on your Liberal ideology, to "respect" someone's belief system, you must in fact capitulate to that person and deny your own beliefs, for doing otherwise would "offend" that person.

So, how do we define "respect"? I consider respect to be avoiding ad hominem attacks.

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In this context, I take respect to mean "agree to disagree", allow people to have their beliefs, and not calling them stupid for having them.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

Also, what do you mean by "thoughtful, generous, good natured" members? How are you defining these characterizations? And how do you quantitatively measure them?

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I mean what I say, I have been a member of this forum for a little over a year now, and I feel I have gotten to know the personalities of the majority of the regular posters on this board. I stand by my description of them.

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

Incorrect. Valid statistics can be used to prove many thing. The key is to separate between valid statistics and those based on poor research.



Which again shows that one needs to separate between valid and poor statistics. I believe the IQ statistics are valid due 100 years of research on human intelligence, as well as decades of reseach on human behavior and personality.

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Perhaps you would care to post the data sets to these statistics then & I will make a decision as to whether I agree/disagree with their validity

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

Proverbs is not the same thing as scientific research.

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Yes, proverbs are different from scientific research, however, the scientific method for experimental research is based on the work of the philosopher Rene Descartes. Here are the 4 principles:

1) The first was never to accept anything as true that I did not know to be evidently so: that is to say, carefully to avoid precipitancy and prejudice, and to include in my judgements nothing more than what presented itself so clearly and so distinctly to my mind that I might have no occasion to place it in doubt.
2) The second, to divide each of the difficulties that I was examining into as many parts as might be possible and necessary in order best to solve it.
3) The third, to conduct my thoughts in an orderly way, beginning with the simplest objects and the easiest to know, in order to climb gradually, as by degrees, as far as the knowledge of the most complex, and even supposing some order among those objects which do not precede each other naturally.
4) And the last, everywhere to make such complete enumerations and such general reviews that I would be sure to have omitted nothing.

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

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Thanks for sharing your perspective with me.

Regards :D

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

Interesting point. Yes, the author, John Bryant, did state his argument in absolute terms. So, I will reject his absolutism, while at the same time holding his overall arguments as valid at least at the present moment, until alternate evidence is shown to debunk his claims.

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So, you just take for granted a theory which from the start is presented in an unadequate way (in absolute terms) until something better comes up? How scientific is that? Wouldn't it be wiser to revise it itstead of proclaiming its validity?

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Originally Posted by Asian-American

Well, let me get philosophical: I believe no one can know absolute truth. So, we have to pick ways of making sense of the world in order to advance. To me, "truth" is limited to what can be deduced by logic and the scientific method. As such, since there is no scientific evidence for deities, souls, Hell, Heaven, and the like, I do not accept them as "truth." Plus, John Bryant and John Hartung have shown how many of the claims of mainstream religions are false in the scientific sense, though not necessarily in the philosophical sense.

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Good. It's nice to see some philosophical thoughts. First of all, let me clarify, just as you consider truth to be that which can be deduced by logic and scientific method, there are people who consider it to be that which comes from (a) God, or who approach it by their personal experiences. It should be clear that neither of these ones is above the others. Just as religion doesn't satisfy the concepts in your mind (and it's not supposed to do so, BTW), neither does logic or science satisfy those of another person. Furthermore, the mere reference to the names John Bryant or John Hartung (which I'm not familiar with) don't qualify as evidence, not in the least.
Also, let me ask you, why do you post about scientific matters in a literature forum? I'm sure you would get much more feedback in a science forum or the like.

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Originally Posted by crisaor

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Thanks for sharing your views with me :D

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Originally Posted by Crisaor

Just as religion doesn't satisfy the concepts in your mind (and it's not supposed to do so, BTW), neither does logic or science satisfy those of another person. Furthermore, the mere reference to the names John Bryant or John Hartung (which I'm not familiar with) don't qualify as evidence, not in the least.

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True - references to names cannot be called evidence. But that is not logic or science. What is put forth in a theory is science - the mere name of an author isn't. Scientific theories satisfy us because they are either coherent to other proven theories or proven themselves.