If anyone, like myself, can't get hold of a copy and wants to start reading NOW - you can do so online here:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Kate_...ies/index.html
or here:
http://classiclit.about.com/library/...op-awake-1.htm
If anyone, like myself, can't get hold of a copy and wants to start reading NOW - you can do so online here:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Kate_...ies/index.html
or here:
http://classiclit.about.com/library/...op-awake-1.htm
LadyWentworth, I read this book before, too; not sure how many years back, because so quickly time flies by; but I did mostly recall the story but not so much about the aspect of 'manners'. But now I began my re-reading, a few things already stand out to me early on in the book. I recall and quote this part in Chapter IV:Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyWentworth
I think both Madame R's relating of the story of her accouchements (childbirths), especially to a Monsieur (male) and the following paragraph showing how Mrs. Pontellier felt compelled to read this book, of which it 'had gone the rounds', in 'secret and solitude', unlike the others, reflects the set attitude of that society and accepted behavior during that time period. I recall my mother telling me that even her mother would never say the word 'pregnant' out loud and that was not as early on. Both paragraphs here reflect 'manners' and to those not adhering to the proper manners of the day. Obviously, these others who are staying at the estate are going beyond proper protocal in being so 'open' in their sexual attitudes/discussion. Mrs. Pontellier starts out thinking very Victorian in this novel. She is young (28) and has not yet found her own self in all of this; she is quite naive; but for that day she was probably altogether normal. This book often reminds me of "Lady Chatterly's Lover", although LC had had some affairs, so she was way less naive than Mrs. P.Quote:
Never would Edna Pontellier forget the shock with which she heard Madame Ratignolle relating to old Monsieur Farival the harrowing story of one of her accouchements, withholding no intimate detail. She was growing accustomed to like shocks, but she could not keep the mounting color back from her cheeks. Oftener than once her coming had interrupted the droll story with which Robert was entertaining some amused group of married women.
A book had gone the rounds of the pension. When it came her turn to read it, she did so with profound astonishment. She felt moved to read the book in secret and solitude, though none of the others had done so,--to hide it from view at the sound of approaching footsteps. It was openly criticised and freely discussed at table. Mrs. Pontellier gave over being astonished, and concluded that wonders would never cease.
THANKS! opimisticnad, I was wondering where I could locate the book online so I could more easily quote various passages. This has been an emormous help! Thanks for taking the time to find the text online. I own a copy of the book, but the online text is great for reviewing.Quote:
Originally Posted by optimisticnad
This is interesting to me, since D.H.Lawrence often speaks of the Holy Ghost in terms of a personal and sensual awakening in people and also more in a 'flesh and blood' way with his 'transfiguration' belief, than an angelic or otherworldly manner. I am not sure, at this point, how to interpret that last statement. Anyone have any ideas?Quote:
In short, Mrs. Pontellier was beginning to realize her position in the universe as a human being, and to recognize her relations as an individual to the world within and about her. This may seem like a ponderous weight of wisdom to descend upon the soul of a young woman of twenty-eight--perhaps more wisdom than the Holy Ghost is usually pleased to vouchsafe to any woman.
I felt this passage has a sense of forboding and also forshadowing.Quote:
But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing. How few of us ever emerge from such beginning! How many souls perish in its tumult!
These two paragraphs I thought were simply beautiful and very poetic; gorgeous and sensual writing.Quote:
The voice of the sea is seductive; never ceasing, whispering, clamoring, murmuring, inviting the soul to wander for a spell in abysses of solitude; to lose itself in mazes of inward contemplation.
The voice of the sea speaks to the soul. The touch of the sea is sensuous, enfolding the body in its soft, close embrace.
Edit: I am only to page 36 but I am liking this book very much. The night sea descriptions were beautiful.
I just started this book. Pretty good so far, The beginning is nicely setting the background of the story as Janine said, the difference in Edna and the others at the resort(?). I've just finished the part where Edna learns to swim and I can't wait to see what happens next!
I think the story is high symbolic, filled with metaphors. I also this the bird in the cage at the very beginning represents Edna before her awakening. I don't want to say more now for fear of spoiling it for others who may not be finished.
I agree with the others. The language of the books is poetic and beautiful.
I am loving it; read more at breakfast. I am about half way through. Glad you two above me like it, too. It's a good read. Keeps one wondering.
I think when everyone reads Chapter XVII, you begin to realise how indeed this book deals with accepted manners of the day and how Mrs. P is hemmed into this world of manners and conventions. I found this chapter quite revealing, as to how the Pontelier family live. If I was Edna, I would die of the routine; and it's quite distressing the way her husband commands his wife. He is overbearing and tyranical. All along, Edna has adhered to this set of strict manners and now she is beginning to realise, there is lot more to life, than the life she has accepted and followed up to this point. She is very much like that bird in the birdcage at the begining of the book.
Finally the library's got my copy so I will be picking it up today and start reading asap.
I've read up to where Edna has started to defy her husband, by staying on the porch all night, which seems such a little defiance, but it's obviously the beginning of her "awakening". I am quite enjoying it so far, it's very readable, not too heavy-going, but I don't think I'd rush off to read more of her work. But I haven't finished it yet. I think it may be one of those books you have to read a few times, to perhaps get all the symbols and underlying sub-texts. Or perhaps it's just as simple as it seems.
wessexgirl, I am on my second reading actually, I am seeing some things I believe I passed by first time around; although, I agree with you, I would not rush out to buy more of her work right away. I may try a few of the short stories in the paperback I own. I do think the writing uncomplicated and somewhat simplistic as you pointed out. I think there is some symbolism and subtext but basically it's just a good enjoyable read and nothing too heavy to have to wade through. I am a little further than you, since I have been reading about 2 chapters a day at breakfast. I like that this book has short chapters. For some dumb reason I can read short chaptered books a little bit quicker; however, I am pouring over this one slowly, so I can now pick up the subtext/symbolism you're referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
Scher, glad you got the book finally and enjoy your reading!
Hope we can all discuss it soon; I am looking forward to that.:)
When authors speak of the Holy Ghost, I think they're referring to baptism, Janine, a biblical reference to the Holy Ghost descending as a dove and occupying the soul of Jesus at His own baptism. That works with this book and the theme of awakening. I can understand that women in that time were not "supposed" to be artistic, accomplished, etc. They were only "supposed" to be wives and mothers. But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hi MissScarlett, That's it, I believe. Well put! However, Lawrence, who most certainly did refer back to the scriptural references, transformed the word and concept in a certain manner that was characteristic of his works; he took the idea a step further and here in this story I think the author is also doing a very similar thing. It is quite interesting that 'water' is involved in this story, and in many of L's stories, as referring to 'baptism'. Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, in a story we read and discussed of Lawrence's awhile back: The Horse Dealer's Daughter", this concept is even more clearly seen/explored. I think you mentioned that you have read the story, am I correct? If so, we might discuss this and it's parellels, perhaps privately. It might also benefit you to read Virgil's thesis; he loves to share it. He explores Lawrence's individual idea of transfiguration and rebirth. I have to read it twice, and it's quite interesting and throws much light on the concept. I will ask him if he would care to share it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
That's a good question, but this was a 'man's world' at that time, so maybe that's why; but now I'm not sure my statement makes any sense in the long run. Afterall it is the Holy Ghost; but what exactly is that? In Lawrence's eyes it was a great mystery and needed to stay as such. As soon as one was the define the word it would stop being significant and holy, elevated and pure. So to your inquiry as to why there was not wisdom granted, I am not sure. Wasn't their wisdom granted to the woman in her awakening.Quote:
But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either
I don't think Edna was enlightened as an artist or accomplished in any way. She may have tapped into some sort of talent eventually. All people have some type of talent. This 'awakening' is to life and to deeper and more real connections to another human beings; mostly the male sexual awakening. But then it is also connecting to her true self at the same time and to nature; perhaps really the same thing, her natural self. I feel as though before this 'awakening' she was sleep-walking through life. She was numb to things around her; she was just going day by day through the steps expected of her in a sort of dazy.
I agree with you, Janine that Edna was without any true discovered talent at all. Her paintings seem to have been more dalliances, I don't believe she played the piano, or at least did not play it well. It's true that all people have a talent for something or things, but I don't believe Edna had the true soul of an artist, like Mademoiselle Riesz, or she would have been able to live her life alone as that lady did. Edna, clearly, could not live for her art. When all was said and done, Edna did need a man in her life, just not one so oppressive as her own husband.
Oh heck, did you see I posted twice? I was adding to the first post and thought I had hit the edit button. I hope you caught my added stuff. I will go now and delete the first one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
I quite disagree with this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
Women in those were expected to be artistic (sing, draw, paint, play the piano. do needle work). They were not supposed to be making a living out of those things but, nevertheless, they were expected to be good at these things, which is emphasised in many books from the 19th century as well... They were sent to finishing school just for this purpose.
In those days, men led a more independent life and was able to receive education and get to see the world if they chose to do so. Having that kind of freedom, even men were not blessed enough to experience "the awakening" so it was harder women to go through such an experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"The awakening", in my opinion, is very similar to what Janine touches upon in her post. It is putting an end to mere floating through life and becoming aware of one's place and purpose in life and beginning to question one's role and, hence, having different expectations from life and people around them.
Such self-awareness is something not many people experience, which is why I think it was described like a divine interruption (Holy Ghost), I believe.
Oh, I totally agree with that. But they weren't supposed to make it their life, as a true artist would, as Mademoiselle Reisz did. They were just supposed to be very good at it to please their family or to pass the time while their husbands were out doing what they wanted to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I should have phrased my initial statement differently because I do agree with you. I should have said, they weren't supposed to have an artistic career, but yes, they were expected to be even more artistic than Edna was.
I was thinking along the lines of a true artist like Mademoiselle Reisz, and I should have stated that. For example, I don't think Madame Ratignolle was of a true artistic temperament, but she no doubt was very good at things like needlepoint, embroidery, etc.
The true artists, like George Eliot, sometime used male names if they wanted to enjoy an artistic career.
I somewhat agree with this statement. I do not think women were really expected to know how to paint, that particular form of art I do not think was seen as typically feminine.
Though they were expected to have musical talent, and to sing, as well as do useful domestic things such as knitting.
Writing and painting were not fields in which a woman was really expected to pursue.
I love Mademoiselle Reisz, which is probably not particularly surprising sense she does not like to really be around people nor does she much care for socializing.
In some ways Edna reminded me of Lilly in To the Lighthouse, though Lilly was perhaps a bit more of a serious artist than Edna is.