*wonders how much oxygen imthefoolonthehill needed to complete his soliloquy* ;)
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*wonders how much oxygen imthefoolonthehill needed to complete his soliloquy* ;)
not a hell of a lot, i'm a fast typer.
I don't know about the hill, but I agree with the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
There are a bunch of other books with similar themes as Brave... and 1984. Consider reading This Perfect Day, by Ira Levine, Farenheight 451, by Bradbury, and The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood. Each takes up the distopia with a different twist.
Here's a question about Brave...: It is currently taught to seniors at the high school where I teach. Do you think teenagers can grasp the themes present in these works or is it simply a waste of time to teach such books to them?
—SuperBabs :banana:
Wole
Are you actually reading the thread?? There are point-by-point rebuttals throughout it. That doesn't happen without reading and considering what the other guys has written, my friend. Or is it your contention that someone actually has to change his position for there to be communication?Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
Where do you see "cheap shots?" The only thing close to that is Taliesin's sarcasm, but quite frankly that's no worse than the closing of your own post, nor is the statement, "love it or leave it" a particularly cordial sentiment. Maybe you should consider taking your hypocrisy elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
As for the thread, I see little political discussion going on. There's a sharp difference between discussing politics and plucking examples from the real world in support of a literary point: that one author had a clearer vision of the possible future than another. Quite frankly I don't know how we possibly could discuss such a topic without examining the current state of the world and where it stands in relation to the novels.
Or are we saying there are things about these books we may not discuss? I find the irony of that in relation to these particular works too humorous for words.
There's no reason at all a 17-year-old should struggle with the themes of Huxley's book. We can (and have) argued whether Orwell or Huxley understood the world better, but there can be no doubt that there are aspects to our society (especially Western culture) that are eerily close to the world created by Huxley. When teens make those connections, the rest comes easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperBabs
Wole Soyinka
Quote:
Originally Posted by trismegistus
lol... i read a different post on this subject awhile back (one thats now been locked, i see)... and thought you guys were STILL arguing about it... so yeah, statement retracted...
this is true, however, this is GENERALLY how things go from there...Quote:
Originally Posted by trismegistus
argumentative moron #1:"yeah, man, like dude... its soooo 1984 out there, man... just look at, like how[insert political party here] totally took away our freedoms and bla bla bla bla "
"dude! they did not! You are a * @%!*&(!%*U!#!#$ Communism rules"
ok...so its not exactly like that, but its close, and it gets not only annoying but offensive, and it scares off new members.
irony, not variety, is the spice of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by trismenisomethingorother
Being a private forum, mr. admin can and will and has set down rules, and we can either abide by them or leave.
Wole Soyinka[/QUOTE]
alright... i'm hoping i got all the quasi-html stuff right...what with the quotes and all.
to crisoaur...whatever...tiger guy... yeah, there is a reason my names the way it is.
to trismegistus... i find you condescening... and correct... as you can see, this entire thing is miscommunication, my fault, for reading a random part of the thread, assuming its a continuation of a last thread (which was everything i described in my above post)
so, here's to good discussion, and the absense of meaningless arguments, as that thread is now blocked... by a well-discerning moderator.
*insert sheepish grin here*
oh well, we all goof up once in awhile, right?
This started as a great discussion. Current politics have been brought into it and you all know that isn't allowed here but I overlooked that and didn't edit or delete posts or close this hoping the point-by-point rebuttals and `debate' here would get back on track, which was basically about the differences and similarities of these two books.
Please, no more name-calling. If you have a problem with someone personally take it to email or PMs or ignore it.
Logos' phrase, "the similarities and differences," forces me to think. I like to force myself to think on a regular basis (though I often wonder whether I am successful).
Logos is correct in pointing out that ad hominem is a waste.
Anyway, having been forced to think for a moment, I have thought about the place of pleasure in the two books (mind you, I read them both over 40 years ago.)
The promotion of pleasure seems to be central in the society of "Brave New World" while the persecution of pleasure seems to be the agenda for the society of "1984."
We control a donkey with carrots and sticks. We offer the carrot as pleasure and inflict pain with a stick.
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
We all pursue happiness (pleasure) but sometimes, when things get out of hand, then pleasure pursues us; we become thralls, addicted.
I must pursue these thoughts more and strive to forge them into some unity, some structure.
Erotic pleasure symbolizes freedom and rebellion. I am thinking of the scene of romantic abandon in the woods in "1984."
Pleasure can be a numbing escape: "a gram is better than a damn" in "Brave New World"
I would like to tie this all together with themes regarding Locke and Hobbes (which I posted way in the beginning of this thread) but such requires much work, research, background reading.
We see one big difference between the works which has not been named yet.
In 1984, the proles, the nameless mass, was let to itself and was manipulated subtly, though effectively (with violence and hating and stuff). Still, the proles are the (heck, We do not know the term in english, but in maths, it is known as x) a possible changer - "the proles (and animals) are free"
In BNW the masses are very carefully being controlled since they were born. Government looks after them very carefully; everything is done very carefully. It is done very directly and with very little loss of energy.
The people are turned into machines.
Thus the whole society has deliberately turned itself into a self-reproducting machine. (also as in 1984) The only signs of humanity are the defects in the machine which are to be eliminated.
Though in the BNW there is also a possible changer - the "rhinocerouses". They are also eliminated, but gently - sent off to an island.
And the whole gentleness of BNW is very tempting indeed - if We had to choose between BNW and 1984 as a place where to live in, We would most certainly choose BNW - We would be sent off to an island, not be made to love BB by using terrible amounts of pain.
I'm just tired of getting the same treatment that some other idiots in this board get. They add nothing, they're uncivil, believe they've got the right to censor others in threads they don't bother to read (a recurring attitude), and even pretend to be right! And above all, any bit of interesting discussion is taken away by the delusions of a stupid person. How about moderating some of this instead of looking the other way?
sounds cheesy, but are you becoming the monster you are hunting? back off, i apologized.
Oxygen should be considered as drugQuote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
Ouch...not very nice to read there Fool :(Quote:
Still by Foll: However, cheap shots and mindless arguing (while exceedingly fun for those of you with nothing better to do) are not cordial or acceptable behaviour.
And on that note I'm going to close this now.
If anyone wishes to start a new thread about these two books, please do so.