Brazilian Literature

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Originally Posted by Brasil

I'm not here to enter into a discussion about if Paulo Coelho is poor literature or not.
I just want to say this: most of people which hate Coelho are envious, cause Coelho sold, and still sell, a lot of books all over the world. A lot of intelectual writers would like to make money with their books as Coelho does, but they don't, so they feel a little envy.
I'm not saying Coelho is a rich literature, but I respect him. As I told before, his portuguese is not a glamorous thing, but there are other kinds of literature, other kinds of languages, so he has his place.

I prefer people in this thread read the post before, see the poem and enjoy it, instead of wasting time with discussions.

If you hate Paulo Coelho, leave him with his peace of mind. Look for an author you apreciate. Why wasting your time talking about someone you dislike?

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I do not hate Coelho at all. As an Educator I found him damaging. My critics where to his books, Not to him until I discovered the kind of hypocrite he is in relation to authoral rights fight.
I do not think you really understand: Coelho is very jealous of James Joyce, Borges or Guimaraes Rosa. He used political influence to achive the status of Immortal of Literature. Your assumptions are ridiculous about the reason why people make critics to him - Lot of them are rich enough. And I care less for sucess.
I would say the same about Renato Russo, a limited singer from a poor punk rock band that had no originality or talent and was 10 years delayed born in a generation that had not the true rebelious spirit writing for public that had no critical capacity and as a poet...ermmm.... No comment. We have Machado de Assis, Gonçalves Dias, Castro Alves, Drummond the king of all Musicians/Writers, Vinicius. They are good.
As simplicity - I think you do not see that I am not against coelho's style but his capacity to deal with that style. I just need to read Malba Tahan or Jorge Luis Borges to see those who deal what Coelho dreams to do with real quality.

I do not wish to get too deeply into the Paulo Coelho controversy, not having read or wanted to read any of his books. I will say, however, that I do question the notion that critics of a popular or successful artist must surely be motivated solely by jealousy. We hear the same thing all the time whenever someone dares to criticize Tolkein, Stephen King, or even Dan Brown or the Harry Potter novels. I will agree that the degree of criticism they receive is certainly motivated by their success... but not so much out of jealousy... but rather an indignant feeling that one is sick of continually hearing about an artist of essentially mediocre abilities far more than many others who are far more worthy of attention. Certainly there are hundred/thousands of other writers/artists just as mediocre... but they have never attained a level of success and never been acclaimed by anyone as being anything more than mediocre. Having said that much, I must also question the criticisms of Plato:

"The greek philosopher, Plato, was a terrible writer too (too long sentences, confuse, not very creative with vocabullary)"

I don't know what constitutes a sentence that is "too long" but I'm guessing that Proust, Joyce, Melville, and many others would be found equally guilty of this "fault"... and yet somehow I don't find them to be bad writers. Confusing? The fault there might lie more with the reader than the writer... at least in Plato's instance. Not very creative with vocabulary? Well... he's certainly not a sensual, poetic linguist. Not Proust... but then again neither was Hemingway, Borges, Racine, Kafka, etc... Personally I find his language quite well suited to what he is attempting to convey (form follows function). But let's return to the discussion of some of the other literature from Brazil that is surely far more worthy of attention. I read Amado's Sea of Death some 15 years ago and only remember it vaguely... but I was very much impressed with Machado de Assis' Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas, and I have been looking for some of his other works.

Hi, stlukesguild. I agree with you, totally.
Thanks for coming.

Obs:
(too long = so long = very long) When someone write big sentences (too long sentences) it might become very confusing. That's what I tried to say.

I am a Plato fan, he's my "hero" (actually, Socrates is). My critic about him was an absurd example to ilustrate how critics are fools. They look at the little details, searching the little negative points, and lost the beauty of the work.
Actually, the critic about Plato exist (grammar aspects and philosophical aspects) but who care for critics? I don't!

JCamilo, hello, it's good to see you here again! You've asked me if I'm Brazilian? Let me show you:

Conheço essa mania de brasileiro: ao invés de falar das coisas boas do país, prefere criticar e mostrar os pontos negativos. Se você não gosta de Coelho, esqueça-o e falemos de outra coisa. Só citei Coelho porque ele é o autor mais conhecido e o que mais vende no exterior. Eu precisava disso para chamar as pessoas ao tópico, mas o que quero divulgar mesmo é a "boa literatura", (como os tradicionalistas dizem, né)?
Agora esqueça o que falei, sem comentários, e divulguemos o que achamos bom a respeito do Brasil, este é o objetivo do tópico.

Sure I am Brazilian: I apreciate all the kinds of readings and cultures, brazilian and others. I am not a Paulo Coelho fan. You are not a Paulo Coelho fan. So, please, let's talk about Brazilian writers which you apreciate. What a wasting of time talking about someone that we are not fan. What (you apreciate in "Bras. Lit." we will talk, ok)?
Now I think it's important, and it's a thing to consider, the Brazil's popular songs, surely it's a rich literature topic.

JCamilo, could you help me to post something about "literatura de cordel "?
Always in english, surely!
And what about the words of "Asa Branca"? The tears roll from my eyes when I hear Asa Branca. Amazing poetry!!!

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Originally Posted by Brasil

Hi, stlukesguild.
Obs:
(too long = so long = very long) When someone write big sentences (too long sentences) it might become very confusing. That's what I tried to say.

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To help Stlukesguild a little, when Plato wrote the written language was not the same as we have now. The material used, the punctuation, the use, everything was different. I doubt we read PLato today, rather versions of him. Anyone able to divise the fuction of dialogue those days was rather keen about the techniques, so I doubt Plato was doing anything wrong for the language he wrote. Rather that our world today will find it different and maybe "Less developed".
As long sentences, The initial sentence of Metamorphosis of Kafka have a beauty due the size and the list of Stlukesguild is more than enough to clean Plato's plates.

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I am a Plato fan, he's my "hero" (actually, Socrates is). My critic about him was an absurd example to ilustrate how critics are fools. They look at the little details, searching the little negative points, and lost the beauty of the work.
Actually, the critic about Plato exist (grammar aspects and philosophical aspects) but who care for critics? I don't!

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Plato himself was a critic, among the first to try to define art to create critics about him. And some near absurdity. But critics to his philosophical system must exist, otherwise we would be stuck in a past and a single vision.
Now literary critics... Man they are no fools. There is bad critics (as there is bad poets, bad fiction writers, bad singers, etc) but most people are not giving critics to coelho because of nitpicking. Or to Dan Brown, etc. Considering not even Dante was perfect, Critics are necessary because they are a door for understanding the work and artists (not really always necessary) and to preserve the beauty of those works.
Among the greatest writers - fiction writers - several are good critics - Dante, Coleridge, Jorge Luis Borges, Italo Calvino, Robert Louis Stevenson, Chesterton, Gorki, Tolstoi, Virginia Woolf, Baudelaire, Machado de Assis, Mario de Andrade, Poe, Nabakov, Voltaire, Yates, Shelley - their critical essays about their own craft ,art and even their mistakes are among the highlights of literature.

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JCamilo, hello, it's good to see you here again! You've asked me if I'm Brazilian? Let me show you:

Conheço essa mania de brasileiro: ao invés de falar das coisas boas do país, prefere criticar e mostrar os pontos negativos. Se você não gosta de Coelho, esqueça-o e falemos de outra coisa. Só citei Coelho porque ele é o autor mais conhecido e o que mais vende no exterior. Eu precisava disso para chamar as pessoas ao tópico, mas o que quero divulgar mesmo é a "boa literatura", (como os tradicionalistas dizem, né)?
Agora esqueça o que falei, sem comentários, e divulguemos o que achamos bom a respeito do Brasil, este é o objetivo do tópico.

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Quando perguntei se você era brasileiro, era simplesmente para saber. Às vezes já vi pessoas que admiram um aspecto da nossa cultura sendo de outros países. Mas eu discordo - Não só eu falei daqueles bons escritores mas o que Paulo Coelho faz é exatamente tomar lugar de outros escritores. Já o vi citado como maior escritor brasileiro de todos os tempos e ele usa textos do Malba Tahan o tempo todo, sem citar fontes, e o Malba, esse sim um grande escritor, fica no escuro. É como se para falar de Chico Buarque, Tom Jobim e Caetano Veloso eu tivesse de falar do Créu :D
Eu sou um crítico e isso significa que tento ver as características de algo, se é negativo, como o Coelho, não é minha culpa. Ainda mais na literatura, que para mim é algo mundial, não só nacional - esse acidente de percuso que prende um mundo a um ponto no atlas.

I only asked if you are brazilian to know. Sometimes I saw peopole who admired a few aspects of our culture coming from other countries. But I disagree - Not only I mentioned good writers but Coelho takes places of other writers. I have seen him named as greatest brazilian writer of all time and he uses texts from Malba Tahan all the time without revealing the sources, and Malba, this one a really great writer, is kept in the dark. It is almost as if when Talkiing About Chico Buarque, Tom Jobim and Caetano Veloso we had to talk about Créu.
I am a ccritic and this means I try to see the traits of something, if it is negative, like with Coelho, it is not my fault. Even more literature, something for me international and not just national - this accident of fate that nails an world in a pont in a world map.

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Sure I am Brazilian: I apreciate all the kinds of readings and cultures, brazilian and others. I am not a Paulo Coelho fan. You are not a Paulo Coelho fan. So, please, let's talk about Brazilian writers which you apreciate. What a wasting of time talking about someone that we are not fan. What (you apreciate in "Bras. Lit." we will talk, ok)?
Now I think it's important, and it's a thing to consider, the Brazil's popular songs, surely it's a rich literature topic.

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My favorite Brazilain Writer is Monteiro Lobato, with Gonçalves Dias as my favorite poet. I have

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JCamilo, could you help me to post something about "literatura de cordel "?
Always in english, surely!
And what about the words of "Asa Branca"? The tears roll from my eyes when I hear Asa Branca. Amazing poetry!!!

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Considering it is poetry, i think it must be both versions but I found regional literature extremelly hard to translate - I tried once or while when asked and calling the "Devil" o "coisa-ruim" is a bit less poetic...
Anyways, If I could I would love to translate Ariano Suassuna, this one the greatest living brazilian writer, but it is hard. I will see if I can translate Asa Branca for you.

JCamilo, I completely agree with what you say. Coelho is awful. In fact, I strongly object to his being included in the company of people such as Jorge Amado or Guimaraes Rosa.

Has anyone noticed what the reward found by the truth-seeking little shepherd in "The Alchemist" is? If I'm not mistaken, it's a treasure of gold coins or something like that, i.e. money. That's his philosophy for you...

I have nothing against self-help or commercial authors, I just don't read them because I don't feel they have anything to offer me. Let people read whatever they want (even if it's a pity that talented writers have trouble getting published, while this sort of drivel sells millions of copies). But I don't feel they should be included among the great.

From Brasil, I read Coelho, Jorge Amado and De Assis.

Jorge Amado (only 1 book I ve read -Os pastores da noite), this book has very well foreword(opening) that made me excited but then comes nothing, only simple grade magical realism. I m talking about book of course, not writer, have to see more of him to judge his ability. But have to ask, how this book "Os pastores da noite" judged in Brasil? His good one, or ordinary?

De Assis was quite good, thinking his period, both creative and brave. I like his book.(In my language, translated as 'writing from my tomb')

Coelho, with millions of book sold(guess), I cant tell he is bad writer, but I can easily say he is not producing big art. I gave him two chances, and will no more.

Ok, I help out Brasil (our fellow member) I think I have said all it is necessay to be said about Coelho and even if literature and internet forums are repetitive, I will try to help out to focus in what make Brazilian literature great. But one last thing: Pecksie the thing is that final , that whole story, is a Arabian Short Story, If I am not mistaken present in the 1001 nights, retold by Kalil Gibhram and published by Borges in the "Book of Dreams". That was the final of the story and since Coelho copied it almost letter by letter there was no change. My problem is the reading he gave, that you find happiness in the end of your self-discovered search where you started (within). This Dismiss the cleaver reading of Borges that saw the aesthetic wonder of a story about two individuals in two different coutries sharing the same dream and the real arabic meaning of this allegory (a great writer usually domains and manipulate allegories and metaphors) that is obeying Allah. As people said, it is just the simple, first meaning of all that is transmited by Coelho and this is such emptiness for me. Anyways, moving...

Jorge Amado and his books are held in high regard. One of the reasons is because the leading TV Channel here produced several apadations "soap-operas" that kept the color and sensuality of his female characters and were sucessfull.

The thing is Brazil is very big (as most of you people know). So, every region developed not only a particular version of portuguese as a different culture and literature. We are also very young.
Altought there is literature before the XVIII century, I think it is safe to say that a brazilian literature and not just a portuguese literature written here, started in the end of XVIII century when the first movements of indepence started. A few poets of a movement know as "Incofidencia Mineira" (In the state of Minas Gerais) produce a few notable works. Claudio Manoel da Costa mostly, those works typical example of classic writting (here labeled as Arcadism) with the influence of the enlightinment, mostly french. They however are not thinking about Brazil, but since they are valued as such, they are part of Brazil and not Portugal.

In the XIX Century, with the independence, the romantic movement with their nationalist traits found here the question about "Who Brasil was" and this produced 3 artists that answered this question and saw us as a whole. They are the founders of the indianism, a movement that included the non-european elements in the literature and this question is the basis of almost all literatures of brazil. Two were poets, typical exemples from the romantic generation (included with the young death, turbeculosis). I must point out that Portuguese is a now a free-flow language as english and even so, in their best momments Castro Alves and Gonçalves Dias produced works as good as the great 6 from England or Baudelaire (France was the main influence of Brazil). Castro long poem, Navio Negreiro, introduced the african slaves characters for the batle to end the slavery. Gonçalves Dias produced a epic I-Juca Pirama with natives as main characters. Dias is a great poet, working easily with stabilished forms and free verses. In terms of lyric poetry, only Camoes can rival him using portuguese idiom.
But the main name is José de Alencar. His romance Iracema was an allegory about a european who marries a maiden (the virgin with honey lips) that represents the innocent Young Brazil. They die, but a son, mix between both survives. Frankly, I find Alencar a bit heavy but a romance, Reincarnation, that he wrote in his last years, a urban story about a young girl who marries a man who lost his wife but is still obcessed with her is amazing. There is traces of the russian psychological romance, an eeire feeling that is a bit of magical realism and since the relation between the young girl and the late wife is a picture, even a tint of Dorian Gray. It is my favorite romance.
After Alencar, Machado de Assis happens. Machado represents the urban literature, of a growing brazil. He is quite unique even if we can find the Flaubert, Zola, Balzac typical of realism we can see more, like short moral stories with the critical sense of Voltaire. The variation of texts include jornalism, critical, poetry and translations such as the first translation of The Raven in Brazil. (There is other good writers during this period, but Machados overshadowed them all, helping to organize them as well, which helped when the Modernist movements happened).
So, next step is the pre-modernism. Two names, two critics with great nationalist bias domain this scenary. One is Lima Barreto, who is a bit of rebel coming from lower classes (his was descendent of africans). Sarcastic and brillant, a bit like Machado when acting as critic.
The other is more a upper class intelectual, Monteiro Lobato. Lobato dwelt in politics and other arts, but his most important thing is: in 1906 he predicted Brazil should learn how to play football (soccer) because one day we would be the best in the world :D
Joking, Lobato worry for education was a main trait, so besides writing for addults he translated Andersen, Perrault, Carroll, Grimms, Barrie and created a manigificent magical world named Sitio do Pica-pau Amarelo (Farm of the yellow Woodpecker) using the books to educated children he travels with them to old greece, the moon, and wherever. It is amazing and Emilia, a trap doll that is the main character is one of the most interesting female characters of all time.
Monteiro was one of the defenders and attackers of the modernist movement who was lead by two writers with great comical streak: Mario de Andrade and Oswald de Andrade. Mario is said as one of the founders of magical realism, is a great guy, found of several art schools in Brazil. Oswald is a pop star with genius for parody unmatched. The important is that the modernist movement opened Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Minas Gerais for writers of other states, from north-northwest we had Joao Cabral de Melo Neto, Graciliano Ramos, Jorge Amado, Raquel de Queiroz from South Erico Verissimo. From Folklore studies, Camara Cascudo. Football became popular about this time and one of the reasons was the quality of writers such Mario Filho and Nelson Rodrigues (the main dramaturgist of brazilian history). We can not forget the quality of Olavo Billac and Manoel Bandeira, two great poets. Cecilia Meireles a great woman writer. But the Modernist generation was just opening the path for two real genius coming from Minas Gerais: Guimaraes Rosa which capacity to deal with Romance is compared to Faulkner, Joyce, Proust and all the guys who worked with language (the complexity of Rosa's vocabulary is only matched by Finnegans Wake btw) and he produced a literature of high quality. Short stories or romances. Drummond poetry is one of the most melancholic, even with humor and sensuality, poetry ever. If there was no Fernando Pessoa, he would reing alone as the portuguese poet of the century (Btw, I find him highly superior to Neruda, in fact, he is the greatest latin american poet of the XX Century and Rosa is a match for Garcia-Marquez and sometimes even Borges).
The modernis movement helped popular (the popular-oral tradition is highly reggarded with brazil because ilustrated the misture of African-european-indian culture) such as the Cordels (one great name is Catulo da Paixao Cearense or Patativa do Asssare). With the 60's the militar dictadorship hit us heavily, and we never produced any longer a generation like the modernists. There is a few good guys, mostly in the humor area but one that i like to name is Malba Tahan. A matematician that loved arabian culture, he was a brazilian guy that created this character that was an arabian living in brazil (we have a huge population of middle west poeple living here) and telling his stories. With this he translated Galand's 1001 nights and lots of oriental short stories to use in his school class. Only near his death they discovered it was a fake name by a dude who didn't spoken a single word of arabian.

I forget many people and in the other areas of literature we had great names as well, but I think from those names you can get those who are the greatest brazilian writers ever.

Here is a translation, nothing that great of the Music Asa Branca by a Forró, a regional style of Music; Asa branca means White wing.

Quando olhei a terra ardendo
Qual fogueira de São João
Eu perguntei a Deus do céu, ai
Por que tamanha judiação

Que braseiro, que fornalha
Nem um pé de plantação
Por falta d'água perdi meu gado
Morreu de sede meu alazão

Até mesmo a asa branca
Bateu asas do sertão
Então eu disse adeus Rosinha
Guarda contigo meu coração


Hoje longe muitas léguas
Numa triste solidão
Espero a chuva cair de novo
Para eu voltar pro meu sertão


Quando o verde dos teus olhos
Se espalhar na plantação
Eu te asseguro não chores não, viu

Que eu voltarei, viu
Meu coração


When I look to the burning land
Like bonfires of Saint John
I asked to God in the sky, there
Why so much affliction?

Which Brazier, which furnace
Not a single crop of plantation
Because of the dryness I lost my cattle
Died thirst my stallion

Even the white wing
Flew from the barren countryside
Then I said Farewell Rosie
Keep my heart at your side

When the green of your eyes
Spread over the plantation
Do not cry I assure you, see

I will return, see
My heart.

A few notes, the northwest countryside is a very dry place, with very little rain, so people live a enduring life with a lot of povertry.

Ariano Suassuna is great!!!!
Yes, he is one of the best, ever!

JCamilo, thanks for the translation of "Asa Branca".

Aside from one Paulo Coelho novel (The Alchemist - awful!) the only other Brazilian author I can remember reading is Clarice Lispector. The book I read was The Hour Of The Star but it has made me interested to look up a few more of the meagre titles available in English from her.

Dom Casmurro is among the most famous novels of Machado de Assis to the point that when we were kids it is a mandatory reading in school. As result... people start their reading life against Machado de Assis and not favorable to him. The book is a typical psychological romance- Bentinho the narrator is a forefather of HH from Lolita (except he does not tell us outrageous lies, but is confused by reality). I am not a big fan of Dom Casmurro but the image of Capitu and her eyes are among the finest creations of Machado de Assis.

My readings are basically classic literature and classic philosophy, that's what I like the most.
When I say classic literature, I mean: the epic poems (Camões, Dante, the greeks...) and some novels (Brazilian literature and world literature).
When I say classic philosophy, I mean: Plato, Aristoteles and others (Locke, Descartes, Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre...) and also somethings about psicology, specially Freud (psycoanalisy's father).

Sigmund Freud made a critic about Shakespeare: The greatest english author was not so original because a lot of things he wrote were already known in some greek myths.
I accept Freud's critic uppon Shakespeare. However, Shakespeare translated the ancient myths to his own time and historical context. So, in some way, Shakespeare was original too. Furthermore Shakespeare was popular on his own time.

Today, there are a excess of idealism of the past when somebody says "Shakespeare was awesome and Coelho is awful". I am not saying Coelho is great, but he's as popular today as Shakespeare was and still is.
I don't apreciate Coelho, but I must respect the million of people who does. He is the most famous brazilian writer today.
Machado de Assis is great, the best, but most of people in the world don't know him. Yes, that's the truth, we must accept: Machado's texts is not for the majority of the world population. If we depends of Machado, the Brazilian literature would be forgotten. That's why I respect Coelho, he is Brazilian and he sells a lot of books. I don't like him, but it is irrelevant, million of people does.
If a was english, I would be proud of J.K.Roling. I don't care if somebody says it is a poor literature. Million of children are reading Harry Potter, that's important. The same I say about Coelho controversy. I am proud, cause he sell a lot of books and he is brazilian. Some brazilians says "Pelé is a awful person, racist, and etc..." But I'm proud of Pelé cause he is the best football player in history and he is brazilian. People always seach defects.

In Brazil, the traditional professors (the old ones) always say good things about Vinicius de Moraes, Chico Buarque, etc... But Raul Seixas, Renato Russo, Cazuza... are poor poets. What a shame say that!
I am portuguese teacher and literature student and I'm also musician. I usually listen to italian opera (and I understand the italian words), Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven... and I love it. I love Bossa Nova and Brazilian popular music too. And also I love rock and roll, jazz, blues, salsa, tango, bolero, tarantella, arabic music... I don't have any prejudice about art.
Renato Russo, for example, had a potent voice. His composition are full of simplicity, but beaufiful. The words of his songs made him a poet and a hero for a entire generation.
So, when someone says "Chico Buarque is great and Renato Russo is nothing" I must be angry. Vinicius de Moraes, Chico, Caetano were importants to a past generation, but Cazuza, Renato Russo and Raul Seixas were importants to the new generation. The historical context is totally different and some people don't take this in consideration.

Shakespeare translated the ancient myth to his own time and context.
Renato Russo translated the angry, the sadness, the fears, and the love of the youth to his own context. Renato Russo made a song composition uppon Camõe's sonnet. It is wonderful!
Russo's song words have paradox, antithesis, synizesis, etc. He's a person who does art. Every human art has something to present, something important.

People always idealize the past as perfect: "The past language was beautiful, the way they spoke at the past was better, the past books was awesome, the past singers were wonderfull..." Yes, I agree but not only the past, our present too. We have good things today. Some people just apreciate the conteporanean literature when it seems like the past literature. This is excess of tradicionalism and past idealism.

Also, I'd like to say: I don't belive in literary critics.
Literature is art, right? So, how can someone define what is beautiful, what is creative, what is ugly, what is original...? This is subjective, so, it depend, it comes from the personal taste.
A totally different thing is: a philosophical critics.
Philosophy is not art, so when a philosopher analasys a phylosophical work that kind of critic is objective. The same thing we can say about the science. The scientifical critic about a scientific work is "objective" (actually it trys to be). But the literature (art) can not be as objective as phylosophy or science.
So, based also in Marx and Freud I say: everything we say about literature is our personal taste, influenciated by the ideology and the personal formation.