Do we really respect each other's beliefs?

Depends what you call being offended. Someone can be offended by the simple fact that you have a different opinion on a certain question, and many other analogous reasons. I think it doesn't come so much as to "do we respect each other?" as to "what do people consider a lack of respect?"

Many people often cannot cope with different opinions or honesty.

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Originally Posted by dzebra

I think much can come from discussions where no one is offended. I don't think that "dancing around" things is related to being respectful. Being direct, but without insults or any derogatory tone, is the best way to communicate.

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You're absolutely right, and the best discussions are the ones in which we try not to offend, and try to not be offended. It's easy to misbehave though, seeing that we are all wearing masks.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Sometimes, actually many times, I feel that people do not tolerate each other's beliefs. Believers think they're right and everyone else is wrong, the same goes for non-believers. People from different religions want everyone to convert to their own religions, to the point that I feel we're in the middle of a war or something. It's furstrating to see how far we've come in religious intolerance.

We doubt and question each other's beliefs and engage in debates and harsh conversations, and then say that we're only 'discussing' and that everyone, eventually, is entitled to his/her opinion. Maybe if everyone took a moment and thought what are the effects of some words and discussions on the other we will come to a certain aagreement. I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask and learn about each other, but we don't have to judge, and always try to shove our opinion down eveyone else's throats.

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But not everyone, I suspect, is a believer or non-believer. I understand what you're getting at; a few of my good friends are either resolute atheists or devote Christians. It is my experience that the theist is more often offended than the atheist. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by sprinks

I think everyone should believe what they want, so long as it does not harm them or anyone else. If someone wants to seriously believe that a giant monkey created the universe and filled it with bananas and we have evolved from those ancient bananas, I'm cool with that, I respect their beliefs. If someone follows a religion like Christianity or Buddhism or Islam or Scientology or ANY religion then I respect their beliefs and their decision to believe that.

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And what if someone's beliefs entail the harm of others? And if someone seriously believed that a giant monkey created the universe and filled it with bananas, etc. (or if someone believed the FSM created the universe, for that matter), I would be just a little skeptical. Not because his/her beliefs aren't consistent with mine (which are still nebulous at best), but because I am a very curious and skeptical being.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

'Attack' is exactly the word I'm commenting on. Why do you have to attack. I mean I'm a believer, and I strongly believe in God and my religion, if I'm arguing with you, and you're an atheist, should I just call everything you believe in crap and attack it harshly just cuz you happen to disagree with me? I know religions and beliefs are a sensitive matter, and once you believe in something, it's not really debatable for you whether it's right or wrong, but that won't mean that I don't respect the fact that you have your own belief. This is what I respect and that's why I'll not attempt to either attack you or shove my opinion down your throat.

Talking about religion is like talking to someone about something you wish they can quit. It's even like talking someone into not smoking, you make your argument, but you don't need to fight the person. I've come to a conclusion now that none of the people involved in any religious argument will come to a result they want. Neither will be convinced, and both will be pissed off and hurt. What will you gain by attacking?! The other person will attack, and then what? none of you will be persuaded with the other's opinion, and you're most probably bound to hate each other afterwards.

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Perhaps no one involved will benefit, but those observing will surely benefit. And must everything be for the benefit of the self rather than the rest?

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Originally Posted by Nossa

I understand all what you said. What I'm saying here, and call me passive, is live and let live. You'll probably gain nothing from arguing about religions, at least you, in most cases, won't get the ultimate goal of the debate which is to convince the other that you're right and they're wrong. I understand that you all agree on a 'polite' discussion, and I also agree that only those who don't have evidence on their points of view are those who seek harsh replies and even insulting discussions. But the thing is, sometimes it seems to me that either parites (believers and non-believers that is) both are waiting for any chance whatsoever to jump on each other's backs and start a debate based wholly on the idea that they both still wanna convince the other they're right. That is basically what I'm against. Maybe it's cuz I've seen it way too much in my life, personally and through media, that I've become quite irritated by it, but yeah I think all I'm proposing here is a simple 'live and let live' idea. That is all. Hope you all get my point of view now.

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Argumentation is more of a good thing than a bad thing. Personally, I take pleasure in listening/reading debates. It is unreasonable to think that one gains nothing from argumentation. Besides, arguing is good sport. :D

"Simply remember this, between men, there is only two possible relations : logic or war. Always ask for proofs, proof is the elementary politeness between each other. If it's refused, remember that you are attacked, and that they will try to make you obey by all means." - Paul Valery, Monsieur Teste

I think there is some value here for the point at hand, that is, as long as we keep to real arguments, logical arguments, there is no reason for anyone to be offended, while on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by dzebra

I think much can come from discussions where no one is offended. I don't think that "dancing around" things is related to being respectful. Being direct, but without insults or any derogatory tone, is the best way to communicate.

You say one must be offended for the conversation to be good, yet you say to not be offensive. This would require someone to get offended about something that's not offensive, which generally comes from a miscommunication. A discussion with miscommunications seems like a bad discussion to me.

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Wrong. There is a difference in being offensive and getting offended. I might offend someone without being deliberately offensive.

And it is a dance, a succession of careful steps. I'm sick of people having to preface their arguments with "I respect what you say, but...", or "Well, I respect all religions, but..." Cut the crap. Let's be honest, no? We're all subjective and endlessly flawed human beings, after all.

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Originally Posted by Etienne

Depends what you call being offended. Someone can be offended by the simple fact that you have a different opinion on a certain question, and many other analogous reasons. I think it doesn't come so much as to "do we respect each other?" as to "what do people consider a lack of respect?"

Many people often cannot cope with different opinions or honesty.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Dori

And what if someone's beliefs entail the harm of others? And if someone seriously believed that a giant monkey created the universe and filled it with bananas, etc. (or if someone believed the FSM created the universe, for that matter), I would be just a little skeptical. Not because his/her beliefs aren't consistent with mine (which are still nebulous at best), but because I am a very curious and skeptical being.

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Well if someone's beliefs result in the harm of others then it really probably isn't the best thing for them to believe in.
And I'm not saying I wouldn't be skeptical of someone believing in a giant universe creating monkey, that wasn't the point, because I admit I'd find it a little weird, but the point is I would RESPECT their desicion to believe it and the fact that they do believe it, even if I think it's the stupidest thing I've heard. I'm happy to let them believe it, I'll ask them questions about their faith and beliefs, but I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong and try to convince them of believing something else. If they want to believe something I find completely absurd it's not going to bother me and I'll respect their belief and their choice to believe it.

I once had a person try to convince me that the world was a giant eskimo, and the eskimo was wearing a top hat with a penguin on top of it that was wearing a top hat with a penguin on it wearing a top hat... etc etc.

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Originally Posted by sprinks

Well but the point is I would RESPECT their desicion to believe it and the fact that they do believe it, even if I think it's the stupidest thing I've heard. I'm happy to let them believe it, I'll ask them questions about their faith and beliefs, but I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong and try to convince them of believing something else.

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Thank you! This is exactly my point. I'm pro discussion, but when people know when to stop. It's not much about the discussion itself, than the people invovled.

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Originally Posted by sprinks

but the point is I would RESPECT their desicion to believe it and the fact that they do believe it, even if I think it's the stupidest thing I've heard. I'm happy to let them believe it, I'll ask them questions about their faith and beliefs, but I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong and try to convince them of believing something else. If they want to believe something I find completely absurd it's not going to bother me and I'll respect their belief and their choice to believe it.

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I think you need to sit down and think about the word respect, because you seem to be throwing it about rather lightly. It is completely absurd that I should respect everyone's beliefs, no matter how crazy they sound. I can accept them, tolerate them, yes, but never respect them.

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Originally Posted by Morten

I think you need to sit down and think about the word respect, because you seem to be throwing it about rather lightly. It is completely absurd that I should respect everyone's beliefs, no matter how crazy they sound. I can accept them, tolerate them, yes, but never respect them.

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I don't think you understood what was said. All it means that you respect their decision and their right to have a belief even if it was different from yours. You don't have to respect the idea or the belief itself. You respect the decision not the belief.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

I don't think you understood what was said. All it means that you respect their decision and their right to have a belief even if it was different from yours. You don't have to respect the idea or the belief itself. You respect the decision not the belief.

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So, in other words, you always show consideration for a person's right to hold a belief that is different from your own, but not necessarily the belief itself? Shouldn't the title of the topic then be switched to "Do we really respet each other's right to hold beliefs different from our own?"

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Do we really respect each other's beliefs?!

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Probably not. On the whole we tolerate it.

Respect is earned not given.

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And when we 'claim' that we do, is that o
but of tolerance or because we 'have' to, cuz of the rules and all that?

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Yes. Rules says it.

But you can be highly critical without using the f word.

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I feel that people do not tolerate each other's beliefs.

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Sometimes it's hard.

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Believers think they're right and everyone else is wrong, the same goes for non-believers.

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non believers also have agnostics and dont careless types.

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People from different religions want everyone to convert to their own religions

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There are religions which don't.

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We doubt and question each other's beliefs and engage in debates and harsh conversations, and then say that we're only 'discussing' and that everyone, eventually, is entitled to his/her opinion.

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I think one's ideology can be challenged without being beastly to the person.

and in the end only the idealogy should be debated.

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Maybe if everyone took a moment and thought what are the effects of some words and discussions on the other we will come to a certain aagreement.

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True Debates should unsettle you. If it does not then your views have not been challenged enough.

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I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask and learn about each other, but we don't have to judge, and always try to shove our opinion down eveyone else's throats.

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I don't think we can't escape judging it's part of our nature.

end of the day...if don't want your views to be challenged then don't put them on a public forum...

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

end of the day...if don't want your views to be challenged then don't put them on a public forum...

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:thumbs_up

"Simply remember this, between men, there is only two possible relations : logic or war. Always ask for proofs, proof is the elementary politeness between each other. If it's refused, remember that you are attacked, and that they will try to make you obey by all means." - Paul Valery, Monsieur Teste

I think there is some value here for the point at hand, that is, as long as we keep to real arguments, logical arguments, there is no reason for anyone to be offended, while on the other hand...

Ackkk! I'm not the only one to have not only heard of Paul Valery but actually read him as well! Proof positive...There is a God!

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

end of the day...if don't want your views to be challenged then don't put them on a public forum...

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Well, I'm not sure if you were directing this to me, but I was generaly speaking when I started this thread.

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There are religions which don't.

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I think the problems are not with religions, they are with people following them.