yay i finally started reading :D
yay i finally started reading :D
I read that this particular Dickens' novel is very unlike his other novels in that it does not have his usual array of quirpy, funny characters. Even though he has incorporated two very humorous characters, Jerry Cruncher and Miss Pross, into the plot, these two provide the only shreds of real humor in the book; probably they provide the comic relief needed in such a serious and tragic story. I would like to add that both of these characters are very important to the plot and have quite serious roles at times. Jerry Cruncher and Miss Pross are two of my favorite characters - they add such color and humanity to this great work.
Ooops i didn't send you the link..sorry :blush:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Thanks for your explanation.
I have done much reading yesterday (it was cold and i spent a pleasant evening in front of the fireplace just reading..this is how life should be :D ).
There are two particular scenes that i really liked.
First the incident with the broken barel of wine and the famished and deprived residents of paris who devour the wine from the muddy street. D portrays very vividly their deprived state, their miserable lifes ;) That is why i truly adore Dickens compared to any other author of his age. He wrote about the simple poor people (and not high class and rich folks) and one can trace a deeply humane interest in his books (a sensitive man and very much interested in social reform). What can i say, i love the man :D
I came across a paragraph which i can't trace right now where he criticizes his forefathers and their adherance to their customs and principles and how they didn't want to chnage anything for the better in their world..
The second scene i liked was the one at the fountain where the snooty marquis runs over a girl with his coach. D uses all his skill to make the man very hateful (especially in portraying his attitude towards the poor people whom he sees like filthy rats).
This two scenes justify the revolution to the reader and explain why it happened and its necessity to happen ;)
I don't think this books lacks humour. I really enjoyed the court room portrayal and the cross examination of the witnessess (the ones against C Darnay) :lol: :lol: And of course this is another D novel full of lawyers :thumbs_up ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Manolia, I want to answer your post later. I read somewhere about the wine in relation to the blood and how this signifies the ideas of redemption. I will explain later on. It really made so much sense to me since the scene when the wine spills in the street in front of the tavern is the same location, I believe as the child being killed, run-down ruthlessly by the carriage. Doesn't the father (earlier on), at the time of the spilling of the wine write on the wall 'revolution' or something like this, as though it was blood? I must go and review this part. The wine is suppose to signify the eminent shedding of the blood (a forshadowing) in the revolution and post revolution, also the idea of 'redemption', which will later become more clear as the story advances.
I will answer your post more extensively later. I have to go eat dinner now.
Yes, the courtroom did have it's humorous moments indeed, especially the part where Jerry was to relay the outcome and other such elements. I had forgotten about that. In a tense situation, how well Dickens interjected these bits of humor and it all works so perfectly. Life is humorous sometimes in the direst of situations.
Interesting what you say..although i admit it wouldn't have crossed my mind..but it makes sense. And if you expand a bit it would make more sense i guess.
Yes the place where the two events take place is the same (to answer your first question)..and i think the man writes "blood" on the wall using wine and not "revolution"..but i am not so sure now..i'll check ;)
manolia, I don't take credit for this - just my research and something I read in this commentary book: Spark's Notes Study Guide, compiled by Harvard students:Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
I found this under
SYMBOLS:
Then it goes on to point out the significance of the 'mob' idea to the story:Quote:
THE BROKEN WINE CASK
With his dipiction of a broken wine cask outside DeFarge's wine-shop, and with his portrayal of the passing peasants' scrambles to lap up the spilling wine, Dickens creates a symbol for the desperate quality of the people's hunger. This hunger is both the literal hunger for food -- the French peasants were starving in their poverty -- and the metaphorical hunger for political freedoms. On the surface, the scene shows the peasants in their desperation to satiate, these hungers. But it also evokes the violent measures that the peasants take in striving to satisfy their more metaphorical cravings. For instance, the narrative directly associates the wine with blood, noting that some of the peasants have acquired "a tigerish smear about the mouth" and portraying a drunken figure scrawling the word "blood" on the wall with a wine-dipped finger. Indeed, the blood of aristocrats later spills at the hands of the mob in these same streets.
manolia, hope this expands the idea of the blood and wine for you. This study quide is quite helpful. I don't know if you can find this online. I actually was lucky to pick it up free from my library. It is quite enlightening and giving the whole novel more dimension and greater meaning to the symbolism and themes. I like the chapters addressing the Motifs and the Symbols. It was the word 'blood' that the peasant wrote on the wall; you were quite right. Been awhile since I read the text but I plan on the audiobook which is available from my library website.Quote:
Throughout the novel, Dickens sharply criticized the mob mentality, which he condemns for perpetrating the very cruelty and oppression from which the revolutionaries hope to free themselves. The scene surrounding the wine cask is the novel's first tableau of the mob in action. The mindless frenzy with which these peasants scoop up the fallen liquid prefigures the scene at the grindstone, where the revolutionaries sharpen their weapons (Bood the Third, Chapter2), as well as the dancing of the macabre Carmagnole (Book the Third, Chapter 5).
Yes that was quite informative :nod:
I have almost finished the second book now and i have a better idea of what D is trying to do. He criticizes both parties. In the first part he criticizes the aristocracy and how bad they handled poor people, how cruel and unjust they were and how indifferent (and sometimes eager) they were in keeping them reduced to an animal state.
When the revolution begins he criticizes the revolutionaries' fierceness and how they ended up being cruel and perhaps unjust (i say perhaps because i suspect that something will happen to C Darnay..) which means that they weren't able to discriminate between the bad and the good guys. There is a chapter where the french court is ridiculed but by C D's choice to oppose his uncle and lead a better life shows that not all of them were the same..hehe i'll say more when i make up my mind :) As for the criticism towards the mob's mentality i admit that in the wine scene i didn't thought about that..as for the two other scenes..i haven't reached that part yet.
Perhaps D had in mind a society were all people (poor and rich) regardless of birth and social class could live together without each class fighting and trying to eliminate and manipulate the others.
manolia, glad that commentary was helpful and insightful to you. Yes, I fully agree with what you say about Dicken's criticizm of the fierceness of the revolutionaries. I think though, it is more than fierceness, and more like blantant vengefulness; not for all but for some. You are predicting well what will happen, but it is more involved than you realise yet. There is so much foreshadowing in the story and one knows that Charles Darney is definitely put into harms way the minute he arrives in Paris. You must be pretty far into the book to have been at the French courtroom scene with Darney or are you referring to the one in the English court at the beginning of the story? As with the past and revolutions such as this same one, revealed in Les Miserables - the revolutionaries sometimes show the same cruelity or revenge as their avengers. The swing towards the other direction is always evident, when violence is used, as the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
I was to my library last night trying to dig up more commentary material; I didn't come up with much but this one study guide is pretty good, I think. You might want to think of these elements when you do your reading, I found these in the Sparksnotes study guide, as above:
I won't go any further with this idea for now, it would be a spoiler.Quote:
THEMES
THE EVER-PRESENT POSSIBILITY OF RESURRECTION
With A Tale of Two Cities, Dickens asserts his belief i the possibility of resurrection and transformation, both on a personal level and on a societal level.
Again, I won't explain further; spoiler.Quote:
THE NECCESSITY OF SACRIFICE
Connected to the theme of possibiliy of resurrection is the notion that sacrifice is necessary to achieve happiness.
This is where the mob comes in and shows us what mobs are capable of.Quote:
THE TENDENCY TOWARD VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION IN REVOLUNTIONARIES
Throughtout the novel, Dickens approaches the revolutionary subject with some ambivalence. While he supports the revolutionary cause he often points to the eveil of the revolutionaries themselves. Dickens deeply sympathizes with the plight of the Frence peasantry and emphasizes their need for liberation. The chapters that deal with the Marquis Everemond successfully paint a picture of a vicious aristocracy that shamelessly exploits and opresses the nation's poor. Although Dicknes condemns this oppression, however, he also condemns the peasants' stategies in overcoming it. For in fighting cruelty with cruelty, the peasants effect no true revolution; rather, they only perpetuate the vioence that they themselves have suffered.
Examples: The book starts with one "It is the best of times, it is the worst of times...."Quote:
MOTIFS
DOUBLES
Dickens's doubling technique functions not only to draw opposition, but to reveal hidden parallels.
I will expound on that later on. Also, Darney and Carton, as being alike in appearance, is another double motif.)
We can expound on that later. This would be one example, early on in the story:Quote:
SHADOW AND DARKNESS
Shadows dominate the novel, creating a mood of thick obscurity and grave forbodding.
Quote:
An aura of gloom and apprehension surrrounds the first images of the actual story -- the mail coach's journey in the dark and Jerrry Cruncher's emergence from the mist.
Then my source material discusses:Quote:
IMPRISONMENT
Almost all of the characters in A Tale of Two Cities fight against some form of imprisonment.
I imagine there are many more symbols than listed here, but these may be the main ones to focus on, or the most prominent.Quote:
SYMBOLS
THE BROKEN WINE CASK
MADAME DEFARGE'S KNITTING
Even on a literal level, Madame Defarge's knitting constitutes a whole network of symbols. Into her needlework she stitches a registry, of the list of names, of all those condemend to die in the name of a new republic. But on a metaphoric level, the knitting constitutes a symbol in itself, representing the stealthy, cold-blooded vengefulness of the revolutionaries.
THE MARQUIS
The Marquis Everemond is less a believable character than an archetype of an evil and corrupt social order.
manolia, this is so cool;;) you and I in a book discussion again. Can't wait to read your future comments/posts. :nod: (I like your nodding head guy!) Enjoy your reading!
I have reached the part where C D arrives at France.
Janine thanks for all these nice information :)
Well to tell you the truth i suspect that the ending will have to do with Carton and his resemblance to C Darnay. In fact i think about this since the introduction of the Carton character. And now that Darnay is in trouble it makes me think about what Carton told to both Lucie and Darnay (that he is their devoted friend and how he'd make anything to make them happy)..and since Carton is my favourite male character in this book (not sure why) i hope he won't do anything foolish :lol: Don't answer! We'll see ;) :)
Yes this expanation is very good :thumbs_up this is what i had in mind..thanks for quoting this.Quote:
THE TENDENCY TOWARD VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION IN REVOLUNTIONARIES
Throughtout the novel, Dickens approaches the revolutionary subject with some ambivalence. While he supports the revolutionary cause he often points to the eveil of the revolutionaries themselves. Dickens deeply sympathizes with the plight of the Frence peasantry and emphasizes their need for liberation. The chapters that deal with the Marquis Everemond successfully paint a picture of a vicious aristocracy that shamelessly exploits and opresses the nation's poor. Although Dicknes condemns this oppression, however, he also condemns the peasants' stategies in overcoming it. For in fighting cruelty with cruelty, the peasants effect no true revolution; rather, they only perpetuate the vioence that they themselves have suffered.
This i don't quite get unless it is on a metaphorical level..like you said, we will expand on this when i finishQuote:
With A Tale of Two Cities, Dickens asserts his belief i the possibility of resurrection and transformation, both on a personal level and on a societal level.
This may confirm my suspicion :( Yeah, we'll see.Quote:
THE NECCESSITY OF SACRIFICE
Connected to the theme of possibiliy of resurrection is the notion that sacrifice is necessary to achieve happiness.
Funny you provide information about the knitting..this is something i wanted to ask. Ok it is very clear what madame Defarge is doing (and it is explained in the book as well -hehehe what a woman, one of the best female characters i have come across;) ) but why knitting?:eek: Is there a reason why D chose the knitting to be the revolutionaries' method of encoding?Quote:
MADAME DEFARGE'S KNITTING
Even on a literal level, Madame Defarge's knitting constitutes a whole network of symbols. Into her needlework she stitches a registry, of the list of names, of all those condemend to die in the name of a new republic. But on a metaphoric level, the knitting constitutes a symbol in itself, representing the stealthy, cold-blooded vengefulness of the revolutionaries.
THE MARQUIS
The Marquis Everemond is less a believable character than an archetype of an evil and corrupt social order.
As for the Marquis i quite agree. He is the personification of evil ;)
Yeah we are :) And it is always very nice to discuss a book with you :) We will have many opportunities this year ;)Quote:
manolia, this is so cool; you and I in a book discussion again. Can't wait to read your future comments/posts. (I like your nodding head guy!) Enjoy your reading!
Quote by manolia
Oh manolia, you make me want to read the book again so bady. I know it pretty well by now though - in my mind - strange the way it is had totally stuck in my mind. That atests to just how dynamic a novel it is I suppose. I recall that scene where you are in your reading. I actually did take the film version out of my library Monday, so I may watch that tonight to refresh my memory on the plot. In fact, this is what happened to me a few years back: I saw the film and I said - 'What? Did I really read this great story in high school?' I had such a different impression of it; all I could recall was it was boring and it was about the revolution...how one's perspective does change when we mature! So I just dove into my book and devoured every page enthusiatically - I loved the story!!! I did think the film so excellent that I had viewed prior, that at times with my late night reading, with one eye open ;, mind you), I felt a little bored, knowing what would come next. Now, since you have never read the book before, it is totally exciting and captivating, isn't it? It is like a good thriller!;) I won't give away that ending. No spoilers here! :D It will have more impact for you, if you don't know. This partly answered your next part below:Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
You are welcome - so glad it adds more insight for you.Quote:
Janine thanks for all these nice information :)
Well to tell you the truth i suspect that the ending will have to do with Carton and his resemblance to C Darnay. In fact i think about this since the introduction of the Carton character. And now that Darnay is in trouble it makes me think about what Carton told to both Lucie and Darnay (that he is their devoted friend and how he'd make anything to make them happy)..and since Carton is my favourite male character in this book (not sure why) i hope he won't do anything foolish :lol: Don't answer! We'll see ;) :)
Yes, throughout the story my favorite character, also, has been Sidney Carton. I liked him from the beginning of the story, when he stood up for Darney. I find his character so interesting, because he keeps me wondering about him and what makes him tick.
According to these Sparksnote commentaries he is the most 'dynamic' of all the characters in the story. In fact, in this part listing the characters, it is said that actually Lucie and Charles are the least interesting of the characters; here is something I found in my the book notes:
Then it goes on to point out the importance of these two characters and their role in the whole scheme of the story.Quote:
Novelist E.M.Forester famously criticized Dicken's characters as 'flat,' lamenting that they seem to lack the depth and complexity that make literary characters realistic and believable. Charles Darney and Lucie Manette certainly fit this description. A man of honor, repect, and courage, Darney conforms to the archetype of the hero but never exhibits the kind of inner struggle that Carton and Doctor Manette undergo. His opposition to the Marquis' snobbish and cruel aristocratic values in admirable, but, ultimately, his virtue proves too uniform, and he fails to exert any compelling force of the imagination.
Along similar lines, Lucie likely seems to modern readers as uninteresting and two-dimensional as Darney. In every detail of her being, she embodies compassion, love, and virtue: the indelible image of her cradling her father's head delicately on her breast encapsulates her role as the "golden thread" that holds her family together. She manifests her purity of devotion to Darney in her unquestioning willingness to wait at a street corner for two hours each day, on the off chance that he might catch sight of her from his prison window.
Quote by manoliaQuote:
While Darney and Lucie may not act as windows into the gritty essense of humanity, in combination with other characters, they contribute to a more detailed picture of the human nature." First they provide the light and counters to the vengeful Madame Defarge's darkness, revealing the moral aspects of the human soul so noticably absent from Madame Defarge. Second, throughtout the novel they manifest a virtuousness that Carton strives to attain and that inspires his very real and believable struggles to become a better preson.
Oh good, glad it was helpful.Quote:
Yes this expanation is very good :thumbs_up this is what i had in mind..thanks for quoting this.
Quote by manolia
You will understand that at the end of the novel. It will all come clear to you.Quote:
This i don't quite get unless it is on a metaphorical level..like you said, we will expand on this when i finish
Quote by manolia
Yep, you will see. ;)Quote:
This may confirm my suspicion :( Yeah, we'll see.
Quote by manolia
Someone told me about this and then I truly understood it...duh, what a dummy I am. Anyway, I don't know where it came from either - the idea for it. It certainly is interesting and keeps it all so secretive. If you noticed in the beginning you had mentioned the carts and the knives and how these just blended in being everyday items; so I would imagine to keep a written registry on paper would be totally dangerous and could reveal their intentions. The knitting is brilliant - who would guess such an innocent skill was being used so vilely and for a list of those to revenge - a death list; sort of reminds me of the Nazi death lists. Wow! I wonder if there is any historical reference here - if this actually did happen where a registry was woven or written in the stitches of a piece of knitting. I think this image so astutely says so much - that one one hand knitting is so innocent and so pure - perhaps 'pure' as the intentions and values born in the breasts of the revolutionaries in the beginning stages of their campaign, 'pure intentions'; this is the way I am thinking. Eventually all this heroism has has turned to sheer revenge and hostility of the mob, and so the knitting is two-sided, another duality. It ends by representing pure revenge and evil. Defnitely Madame Defarge is a great character. She truly embodies this idea of the mob gone wild and ultimate revenge. She is a very strong character and wants blood. Eventually, you will find out much more about her. He is a mulit-faceted character.Quote:
Funny you provide information about the knitting..this is something i wanted to ask. Ok it is very clear what madame Defarge is doing (and it is explained in the book as well -hehehe what a woman, one of the best female characters i have come across;) ) but why knitting?:eek: Is there a reason why D chose the knitting to be the revolutionaries' method of encoding?
Quote by manolia
Definitely so. Madame Defarge is his counter evil.Quote:
As for the Marquis i quite agree. He is the personification of evil ;)
Quote by manolia
It is great to be again disgussing with you manolia... or even an intriguing movie (I have Lynch in mind of course;) )Quote:
Yeah we are :) And it is always very nice to discuss a book with you :) We will have many opportunities this year ;)
Yep, it is a great book :nod: I am up to my neck with work lately and nevertheless i have found time to read it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Heh great minds think alike :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I have realised by now why i like Carton..he is very silent and you don't know what he is thinking and why, he is a person with deep feelings but he never shows it and you have to get to know him for a considerable time (years perhaps) till you realise that he isn't insensitive but restraint..heh i have just described my boyfriend and the kind of men i like in real life :lol: :lol:
I agree with C Darnay's and Lucie's description. They weren't altogether bad but i don't much care about their fates ;) I know that D's books are filled with characters like these (they perhaps represent the gentle folk of the age) but i always liked D's villains :D
I was thinking the same thing..if it is based on true incidents although it seems quite unlikely..Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
It is a very clever idea though and it gives a very humouristic touch to the first part of the book (the fact that Mme Defarge is always knitting and sees nothing).
Like i told you before, do watch "Inland Empire"..we will be discussing this movie for the next few years if you do watch it :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh, i have two more chapters and i am done with the book ;)
manolia, isn't that always the way? Just when you really want to do one thing you get bogged down with work or something needs to be done. Hey, we have time; don't stress out. Bye the way, where is everyone else on this thread who voted? Are they still all reading the book? Hello, calling all readers - anybody there:smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Yes, they(we) surely do! :lol:)Quote:
Heh great minds think alike :D
I have realised by now why i like Carton..he is very silent and you don't know what he is thinking and why, he is a person with deep feelings but he never shows it and you have to get to know him for a considerable time (years perhaps) till you realise that he isn't insensitive but restraint..heh i have just described my boyfriend and the kind of men i like in real life :lol: :lol:
The kind of guys I am attacted to, also. The trouble is,
usually, by the time I have them somewhat figured out, I also figure out they are not what I thought they were, nor what I want in a man.
Of course, there is always the exception to that rule. I guess I keep hoping to find it. Still, the silent types are not that easy to live with.
Who Lucie and Charles? Don't you really care if they get guillotined? I don't want to see that, but I think they are really naive to enter Paris during these dangerous times; don't you think it? They all seem to be in some kind of a 'dreamworld' or uninformed as to the dangers. No sooner does Charles enter the city, and he is dedained/arrested, right? Yes, true the bad guys do get the greatest attention in Dicken's books and are the most interesting, but somehow good always does prevail. I can't think of any real tragedies in Dickens, unless this one comes close. There is always an upside though, unlike say, Thomas Hardy or even Shakespeare tragedies.Quote:
I agree with C Darnay's and Lucie's description. They weren't altogether bad but i don't much care about their fates ;) I know that D's books are filled with characters like these (they perhaps represent the gentle folk of the age) but i always liked D's villains :D
manolia, I was going to try to research that but not sure how. I will poke around on the internet. I think I read about it having some historic origin, but not sure where now. Yes, humorous in a sick way, maybe black humor...you've been watching too many Lynch movies, M. ;) :lol: I may be wrong about it being historical fact, so don't quote me on that idea.Quote:
I was thinking the same thing..if it is based on true incidents although it seems quite unlikely..
It is a very clever idea though and it gives a very humouristic touch to the first part of the book (the fact that Mme Defarge is always knitting and sees nothing).
Yes, great thought, with Mme. Defarge seeming to see nothing; she sees more than you would imagine and she not only records this in the stitches, but in her in her screwd mind. She is out for blood. She doesn't miss a trick, believe me. She has one goal and that is blood - revenge. Any obstacles in her way, get mowed down.
I have to try and get that film. Any ideas how? Would it be available in our video stores here? I have never seen it. How old is the film? I was just lucky "Mullholland Drive" has come into my library several times now. I will try and track it down.Quote:
Like i told you before, do watch "Inland Empire"..we will be discussing this movie for the next few years if you do watch it :lol:
Great! But I hope you will keep posting, even if you go onto a new book. I know we can have a great discussion on this book. If you wander off, I will come and get you...hahaha.Quote:
Oh, i have two more chapters and i am done with the book ;)
I can't wait to see how you like the ending. manolia, you sure do read fast! I still want to listen to the audiobook - it is available online from my library and will better refresh my memory. I have to finish up my L book soon - a few more chapters, then I will download ATOTC to my MP3 player. I am currently also listening to the audiobook for the monthly book read on here. Whew, I am busy too!
Here is a tidbit I found in several book sources, but this is briefly stated here in the Sparksnotes under:
Quote:
PREFACE:
In a brief note, Dickens mentions the source of inspiration for A Tale of Two Cities: a play in which he acted, called The Frozen Deep, written by his friend Wilkie Collins. He adds that he hopes that he can further his readers' understanding of the French Revolution --"that terrible time" --but that no one can truly hope to surpass Thomas Carlyle's The French Revolution (published in 1837)
I was wondering the same thing ;) Perhaps they are busy with the other reading or have exams (Alexei popped in the conversation but said something about exams).Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
After a while you get to know them very well and are able to figure out the different kinds of silence..besides it is nice since you get to do most of the talking :p :lol: (and i talk a lot, mind you) :lol: And when they get to know you better they start to open up (eventually) and to my experience guys that don't talk too much and don't express themselves easily have deeper emotions (of course i can be wrong about that but it works so far ;) ). Carton is a good example :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yep i wasn't much interested in their fates. This doesn't mean that i wanted them dead ;) but:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Charles seems to me to be a very naive person (like you said)..first he's been travelling undercover to Paris and London in order to take care of the Evremonde affairs, to be faithfull to the promise he has given to his mother and convince his hellish uncle to handle the peasants better :rolleyes: something he never actually accomplishes because he meets Lucie and is infatuated with her :rolleyes:. Doesn't this show how irresponsible and self centered he is? As soon as he meets Lucie he forgets about his promise and all and leaves poor Gabele behind with a few instructions to make the most out of them..When he realises that he must take action he chooses the worst time ever, going headlong to a desperate expedition and endagering not only himself but his entire family ;) And Carton and the doctor (not to mention Mr Lorry and Jerry and Mrs Pross) are being draged along to Paris and combine their efforts to save his butt :lol: which leads to the inevitable secrifice of Carton :(
As for Lucie..she is infatuated with Charles..but why?? Ok the submissive part of her character and her sweetness and all can be attributed to the Victorian models of proper behaviour etc etc
I like both Charles and Lucie, don't get me wrong. They are essential to the book and they also serve as a contrast for the stronger characters. Carton's superiority of character (and the doctor's) is made more prominent by Charle's deficiency. Same goes for Mrs Pross and Mme Defarge when compared to Lucie.
Mme Defarge is definately one of the bad guys. In the first part of the book (book 1 and half of the second book) prior to the beginning of the revolution, she is a likeable character, because in the first part we get to see how evil the aristocracy is and how bad they treated the poor folk, so even the slight hints that are given to us which somehow show what will take place next, isn't enough to make one dislike her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
On the second part when we get to see that she is one of the leading figures of the revolution and that she is a very bloodthirsty person, we get to think differantly about her. But towards the end when we learn about her family history we may again sympathise ;) .
I really enjoyed the "catfight" between Mrs Pross and Mme Defarge towards the end when Mrs Pross confronts Mme Defarge and they eye each other :lol: and i was a bit sad when she died..she may be a ruthless person and totally uncapable of mercy but she was the most interesting female character of the book (she reminded me of My lady from "The three Musketeers" by Dumas). ;)
I saw "Inland Empire" in a theater last year. It is a 2006 film..i am sure you'll find it ;) He is an american director so i bet it is quite easy to find his films in the US if i can find them here :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This is one of my favourite scenes from the whole book. Very very interesting. Oh and I did feel bad for Madam Defarge too. At places, she even managed to convince me a bit that there was nothing wrong with the revenge... A very strong character about whom everything I felt like reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
There does seem to be a lot of exams this time of year. Perhaps that is the reason. There are two main book discussions going on also this month.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
The bolded up part I relate to the most! :lol: manolia, we would be murder in a room together for any length of time or on a telephone. We would both get cauliflower ear!;) :lol: But seriously, we must discuss this other part in PM's or emails. I could tell you an earful and you me...probably. I might just be suffering now from man 'cynicism' in my old age!Quote:
After a while you get to know them very well and are able to figure out the different kinds of silence..besides it is nice since you get to do most of the talking :p :lol: (and i talk a lot, mind you) :lol: And when they get to know you better they start to open up (eventually) and to my experience guys that don't talk too much and don't express themselves easily have deeper emotions (of course i can be wrong about that but it works so far ;) ). Carton is a good example :D
I pretty much agree with the things you said here, but I think I cared a little more about their fates. However, I did definitely think Charles risked a lot going back to Paris, but it seemed he was being noble doing so and also feeling quilty he had abandoned the keeper of his estate there. What was he thinking? To be honest with you, considering this is a much different time and word probably traveled so slowly without any modern day communications devices, I therefore feel he was probably not getting a realistic view of exactly what was going on in Paris and just how bad it had become. Lucy and their daughter going to Paris did not make much sense to me, but I just read that he was imprisoned for a year and a half. I had not realised that it was that long before he came up to trial. I would think the family would have be tormented about going, but then Mr. Lorry had made frequent trips to Paris from London to conduct business, so I suppose Lucy felt some security in that and the fact that Dr. Manette had been a prisoner in the Bastille for those 18 yrs. They all would have been safe in the end, had it not been for the discovery of Dr. Manette's manuscript he wrote in his cell and stashed away in the fireplace or wall. Who would have quessed that would be found. I was wondering how Monsieur Defarge knew to look for the document. Had Manette told him about it or perhaps mumbled in to him when he was not in his right mind? I forget this part of the story, so maybe someone can help restore my memory on this point.Quote:
Yep i wasn't much interested in their fates. This doesn't mean that i wanted them dead ;) but:
Charles seems to me to be a very naive person (like you said)..first he's been travelling undercover to Paris and London in order to take care of the Evremonde affairs, to be faithfull to the promise he has given to his mother and convince his hellish uncle to handle the peasants better :rolleyes: something he never actually accomplishes because he meets Lucie and is infatuated with her :rolleyes:. Doesn't this show how irresponsible and self centered he is? As soon as he meets Lucie he forgets about his promise and all and leaves poor Gabele behind with a few instructions to make the most out of them..When he realises that he must take action he chooses the worst time ever, going headlong to a desperate expedition and endagering not only himself but his entire family ;) And Carton and the doctor (not to mention Mr Lorry and Jerry and Mrs Pross) are being draged along to Paris and combine their efforts to save his butt :lol: which leads to the inevitable secrifice of Carton :(
I read that really, none of the characters are anything less than somewhat shallow (not totally fleshed out perhaps) and it was how Dickens intended them to be, so we have to take that in to account, as well. I would imagine going into more depth with each character, would have made the book of epic length and Dickens wanted to get to his point sooner and to drag out particulars would have detracted from the intricate plot and the plot twists. The book is more 'plot' driven work and deals with so many social questions and moral questions, that the characters are somewhat seen as caracatures of real people. I don't mind this in this book. There are so many colorful characters, that I think it works well with one set of characters, off-setting the drama of other characters. It works very much like a play actually, now that I think about it. So how much can you reveal about a charcter in a few hour's time, as in a play? How many pages are devoted to just one character in this book, since the book has so many? Not that many really. I think what I am saying it the amount of depth Dickens uses to convey the characters in this book is well balanced with the plot and not in excess. We get a small window into each character and perhaps have to fill in the blanks for ourselves. I think the most fleshed out character is Sidney Carton. Someone one can see directly into his soul but one wonders how he got to be as he is in the beginning of the story. We also find out more about Madame Defarge since her past has been revealed sometime during the trial and we can find some sympathy in our hearts for this person who is very damaged by what she has endured. Sidney Carton also appears to be a damaged individual but unlike Madame Defarge, we never find out what made him as he was. Ultimately we see him heroic and unselfish and sacrificing. Some scholars have argued did he really make the ultimate sacrifice when he seemed to value his own life so little. This is an interesting question but I tend to think otherwise. I don't take being guillotined too lightly, do you?
I truly wondered why she went for him, as well; except that in the beginning, she had noted his kindness on the ship with her father coming back from Paris. I don't know just what else transpired between them, but I think they had great admiration and respect for each other. I think that they truly loved each other and were attracted right away - chemistry perhaps. I think Dickens leaves their romantic life to our own imaginations and that is fine. They both seem of the same temperament and suite each other well, or compliment each other. These calmer characters do definitely contrast with the more dynamic characters, even Miss Pross and Jerry Cruncher, who both are quite excitable and very humorous at times. But most notably they do contrast with Sidney Carton and Madame Defarge.Quote:
As for Lucie..she is infatuated with Charles..but why?? Ok the submissive part of her character and her sweetness and all can be attributed to the Victorian models of proper behaviour etc etc
I like both Charles and Lucie, don't get me wrong. They are essential to the book and they also serve as a contrast for the stronger characters. Carton's superiority of character (and the doctor's) is made more prominent by Charle's deficiency. Same goes for Mrs Pross and Mme Defarge when compared to Lucie.
I think probably the one character who is less one dimensional is Madame Defarge. We get to see both sides of her character, although the blood-thirsty, revengeful side wins out; yet even when she dies we feel it is a tragedy unfolding. I think that the fact, that we are given background information on her at the trial makes us feel more like she is a human-being who has been terribly wronged; therefore, we can relate to her a little easier. Throughout the book, there is much emphasis on Madame Defarge, don't you think? One of my commentary books point to the fact that she ultimately ends up representing the chaos of the revolution, most notably the mob.Quote:
Mme Defarge is definately one of the bad guys. In the first part of the book (book 1 and half of the second book) prior to the beginning of the revolution, she is a likeable character, because in the first part we get to see how evil the aristocracy is and how bad they treated the poor folk, so even the slight hints that are given to us which somehow show what will take place next, isn't enough to make one dislike her.
On the second part when we get to see that she is one of the leading figures of the revolution and that she is a very bloodthirsty person, we get to think differantly about her. But towards the end when we learn about her family history we may again sympathise ;).
Wasn't it great? It was like all hell broke loose in Miss Pross and Madame Defarge was on the warpath. Miss Prose summoned up all her maternal protective energy to fight the heck out of Madame Defarge. If you get a chance to see the film version this is an amazing scene. It makes one almost laugh but then it does turn quite ugly and it is very sad when the bullet goes off. At first one does not know which is hit and then the reality sinks in. It is a brilliant scene and part of the book, pitting the two charcters directly at each other for the showdown.Quote:
I really enjoyed the "catfight" between Mrs Pross and Mme Defarge towards the end when Mrs Pross confronts Mme Defarge and they eye each other :lol: and i was a bit sad when she died..she may be a ruthless person and totally uncapable of mercy but she was the most interesting female character of the book (she reminded me of My lady from "The three Musketeers" by Dumas). ;)
You know, I think I was thinking of "Lost Highway" - I still need to see that film by Lynch. So this newer film is not by Lynch. I get it now. Yes, not doubt I will get to see it soon. My library buys them pretty quickly after the DVD's are released. They have a nice collection by now. I will just wait and soon it will probably be in. I will check their video list online tonight. They may have it already. Who stars in it?Quote:
I saw "Inland Empire" in a theater last year. It is a 2006 film..i am sure you'll find it ;) He is an american director so i bet it is quite easy to find his films in the US if i can find them here :)
I wondered what anyone thought of the 'spy' who seems to change sides at his advantage. He is the man who gets Sidney into the prison, Barsad. He starts out at the trial in the begining (England), then crops up midway at Defarge's Tavern and then he is especially significant to the ending of the story. I thought he was a real snake playing both sides of the coin at once, or so it seemed to me he did this. I had forgotten he was the actual long lost brother of Miss Pross; interesting.
Note:I did go back and edit this after watching the miniseries which I know is quite close to the actual text and plot, and very true to the characters.