Big Brother And The Party

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Yes Longsocks, but it is worth looking at the book from another point of view which has been discussed here. That as has been calculated that 99.88% of the people of Oceania were happy. It was only a few polits that dissented and tried to spoil the utopian society. Winston was a paranoid schizophrenic who needed treatment. Totalitarianism is an excellent mechanism for national happiness. What percentage of people are happy under the authoritarian politics of today?
Nowhere near 99%:)

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The 99.88% was a figure that was invented by the Party.... statistics are rarely accurate...

The people of Oceania are not happy, they do not know happiness, they have no emotions. The people of today might not like today's government, and we may not be happy with our leaders, but overall we lead much happier lives than the people of Oceania. Winston was not actually sick an needing treatment. He had his own opinion of
Big Brother, and since it was not allowed by the Party, they felt the need to tell treat him as if he was insane, but honestly I think he was more same than many if not most of the people of Oceania.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Every leader is a priori influential, otherwise he would never become a leader.

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More influential than most, one that can pitch this form of government and have it take hold very strongly.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

That's a problem. People are too smart and intelligent not to realize truth, Proles were stupid, so they couldn't realize it. Some dictators tried that already, and it didn't work with inteligencia.

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One of the reasons it wouldn't work in today's society.
I also said this because after a certain number of years (as happened in 1984) the people would come to love the government and become nationalistic, once that happens a place of blame would be easy to create. The people would follow it blindly.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Then where is it going? To whom?

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As in 1984, it would be found out before anyone could be informed of it or have the ability to express their feelings to the general public. Such great moderation would have to be used (as in 1984) that many people may think that it is too much.

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Originally Posted by jellolover07

The 99.88% was a figure that was invented by the Party.... statistics are rarely accurate...

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The statistics were most likely fabricated, agreed.

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Originally Posted by jellolover07

The people of Oceania are not happy, they do not know happiness, they have no emotions. The people of today might not like today's government, and we may not be happy with our leaders, but overall we lead much happier lives than the people of Oceania.

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Yep, the government made them think it was a great society.

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Originally Posted by jellolover07

Winston was not actually sick an needing treatment. He had his own opinion of
Big Brother, and since it was not allowed by the Party, they felt the need to tell treat him as if he was insane, but honestly I think he was more same than many if not most of the people of Oceania.

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The Party thought of him as insane and needing of treatment because he did not follow the way of the Party. He obviously was more sane than most because he said no. He challenged the government, and because of Orwell's never dying warning against totalitarianism, he lost.

Comrades !!!!!! (Orwell may have seen my attempt at wit there).

Freedom and Liberty for all humanity, I would love to live in a world without interference from government. In my opinion the government should be as small as possible, with minimal taxation and licences, no restrictions of freedom of speech and in the form of the third vote, that of the grand jury (and in my basic knowledge of the mechanism) humanity does hold all the power we (I) the proletarians are under no duress of unwanted power and would live in a free republic.

Saying that Oceania was over 99% happy is playing devil's advocate as stupidity and ignorance cannot be classed as happiness and oligarchical rule by the few and fear by the rest cannot either. But i think you can read it in that way and see it as the schizophrenic nightmare of one man and his mental illness, against the will of the majority. Is this not the beauty of the understanding (or trying to) of 1984?

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Comrades !!!!!! (Orwell may have seen my attempt at wit there).

Freedom and Liberty for all humanity, I would love to live in a world without interference from government. In my opinion the government should be as small as possible, with minimal taxation and licences, no restrictions of freedom of speech and in the form of the third vote, that of the grand jury (and in my basic knowledge of the mechanism) humanity does hold all the power we (I) the proletarians are under no duress of unwanted power and would live in a free republic.

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Just as long as laws are still upheld and crime is kept down.:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Saying that Oceania was over 99% happy is playing devil's advocate as stupidity and ignorance cannot be classed as happiness and oligarchical rule by the few and fear by the rest cannot either. But i think you can read it in that way and see it as the schizophrenic nightmare of one man and his mental illness, against the will of the majority. Is this not the beauty of the understanding (or trying to) of 1984?

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So many different perspectives! We have to tear each part of this book apart, so we can fully understand Orwell's intentions. That is the beauty of it. Nailed it Luke.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi.

Just as long as laws are still upheld and crime is kept down.:thumbs_up

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Hopefully they would be as we would all be very well educated. Our goal would be to bring Oxford standard education to the proletariat. Tremble, elite, tremble.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi.

So many different perspectives! We have to tear each part of this book apart, so we can fully understand Orwell's intentions. That is the beauty of it. Nailed it Luke.

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Yes i agree Enjoi, It really can be read, thought about, disscussed, read some more. I think its a testament to plain English prose. Which is apparently what Orwell wrote :)

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Hopefully they would be as we would all be very well educated. Our goal would be to bring Oxford standard education to the proletariat. Tremble, elite, tremble.

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Mass education!! The goal of society for such a long time!! If only we could bring that standard to every single person society would be much more civilized.

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Yes i agree Enjoi, It really can be read, thought about, disscussed, read some more. I think its a testament to plain English prose. Which is apparently what Orwell wrote :)

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Great works never die I suppose. Opinions will always be held and discussed. If only Orwell could see how much his book has been broken down bit by bit.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi.

If only Orwell could see how much his book has been broken down bit by bit.

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On western hemisphere.
On eastern...

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Originally Posted by bazarov

On western hemisphere.
On eastern...

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Everywhere, its been evaluated time and time again by people all over the world.:D

Don't be so sure :)

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Don't be so sure :)

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It's hoping for the best that people have at least heard of it, not everyone has for sure, just hoping people are educated and have had the ability to read great literature such as this.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi.

It's hoping for the best that people have at least heard of it, not everyone has for sure, just hoping people are educated and have had the ability to read great literature such as this.

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I think you are right but its been somewhat perverted by Big Brother the reality show and the use of Orwellianist type language to describe Authoritarian politics. But Hey Enjoi, do not know where you are from but the BBC did produce a good Orwellian type programme called Room 101, check it out if you can, strictly speaking though it should have been called the memory hole.:D

Sorry to divert from the literature there, within the English speaking world i think everybody has heard of Orwell or Orwellian language but are unaware of is great Humanitarianism and the lessons within it for the working class of today. I do not know about the non english speaking world maybe Bazarov can help us there.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi.

It's hoping for the best that people have at least heard of it, not everyone has for sure, just hoping people are educated and have had the ability to read great literature such as this.

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Did you know that more people have heard for Big Mac then for Bible? And if you think little about it you won't find it too weird.

Honestly, I have never heard for Orwell before joining this forum and I am absolutely sure that 99,9% of my friends haven't heard for him too (that 0,1% is my influence).The fact that, combined with Shakespeare; he is the most discussed author on this forum got me interested (also, one member here said that I remind him on Napoleon so I had to figure out is it good or bad :D) so I gave him opportunity.
And I am well educated and have read really a lot; but never came across Orwell. You find it weird, I know.
But, one member here; who is from Florida once asked ''Where is Russia?'' and ''Who is Tolstoy?'' ( I am not Russian, but that amazed me). And that member is a bookworm? So what should I think about that? Maybe it's not her fault, nobody in school talked about Tolstoy so she doesn't know, haven't see it or anything else. East and west are two worlds, my dear.

And Tolstoy made me wonder more then Orwell. And is greater writer then Orwell.

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Originally Posted by lukgem

Sorry to divert from the literature there, within the English speaking world i think everybody has heard of Orwell or Orwellian language but are unaware of is great Humanitarianism and the lessons within it for the working class of today. I do not know about the non english speaking world maybe Bazarov can help us there.

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Why for working class? What about others?

original post - "That's why Winston survived"
I don't think Winston does survive, he is simply released to be executed at a later date, just like the three men in the bar. His brief 'freedom' is like a reward for good behavior [ie. his coming to love big brother].

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Originally Posted by omni29

original post - "That's why Winston survived"
I don't think Winston does survive, he is simply released to be executed at a later date, just like the three men in the bar. His brief 'freedom' is like a reward for good behavior [ie. his coming to love big brother].

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No. He's now a perfect member of society, and as O'Brien told him, he may live out his entire life. Once the conversion is complete, there's no hurry.