can somebody help me understand this?!

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06-09-2007, 10:09 AM
weepingforloman

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGL57

Agreed. Then what need for christianity - particularly?

And BTW - I am asking only you for an answer - and NO ONE ELSE.

The message of the Gospel is NOT just to be a good person-- it offers salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

Grace and Peace.
06-09-2007, 12:49 PM
Charles Darnay

Quote:

Originally Posted by stella

wouldn't you consider the fact that Christianity was one of the first most widely spread religions that came up with these values, and many religions were influenced by it.....

but that is not our topic. doesn't everyone have that curiosity about our existence and our mission, who created us and why, the reasonable answer in this case is the easiest one ,and that is the existence of a higher power not necessarily governing us because we have the choice of rejecting and accepting.

Stella, I don't believe Christianity was the first widely spread religion that came up with these values: in fact, it's one of the last....

Any, I believe that some people (a great many people) are not concerned about the "mission" as you call it, about what put us on this Earth, but rather, now that we are here what do we do? How do we make our lives better for the sake of making our lives better, not to appease some higher being. How can we help people only for the goal of helping people not some reward in the afterlife? Of course, I'm generalizing: I'm not ssaying all theists care only about pleasing God and getting into Heaven, and that all atheists are selfless people...far from it. You have jerks on both side of the fence
06-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Unbeliever

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazarov

Exactly. When something is out of our reach and knowledge, we can easily say ''God wants it to be like that, there must be a reason'' and we can stop thinking about that. When something bad or unexpected happens, blame God; it will be easier to accept it.

Indeed. Once he was cured of his testicular cancer, Lance Armstrong was asked if he thanked God for his cure, and he said no, because then he'd have to blame God for giving it to him in the first place.
06-09-2007, 06:35 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

The message of the Gospel is NOT just to be a good person-- it offers salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

Grace and Peace.

All this christianity taken literally is just assumption founded on assumption. Why, particularly, must I share in your assumptions, when your assumptions don't fit the facts. There are far better assumptions available. You are unaware? I suggest you travel a bit, and read a few books - other than a KJV.
06-09-2007, 06:38 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by stella

wouldn't you consider the fact that Christianity was one of the first most widely spread religions that came up with these values, and many religions were influenced by it.....

but that is not our topic. doesn't everyone have that curiosity about our existence and our mission, who created us and why, the reasonable answer in this case is the easiest one ,and that is the existence of a higher power not necessarily governing us because we have the choice of rejecting and accepting.

Hinduism is 5,000 years old - christianity about two. If either influenced the other, then what are the odds the latter influenced the former the most?

The rest of the questions that so concern you - they are the creations of a monotheistic assumption. Think outside the box. Pantheism solves your alleged questions by dissolving them.

And have a nice day.
06-10-2007, 04:09 PM
weepingforloman

Pantheism reduces the questions of life to naught. If all is God, all is divine, and any choice also is holy. So choose what you want, and frolick willy-nilly through the world, punching babies in the throat and stealing their lollipops.
06-10-2007, 08:43 PM
Charles Darnay

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

Pantheism reduces the questions of life to naught. If all is God, all is divine, and any choice also is holy. So choose what you want, and frolick willy-nilly through the world, punching babies in the throat and stealing their lollipops.

Fun as that sounds (maybe not the punching part), Pantheism states that God is in everything, so yes, everything is divine, but ethical codes don't enter into it. In fact, punching babies and stealing lollipops = punching God and stealing his lollipops, and I may not believe in "God" in that sene, but if I did, I sure wouldnt want to steal his lollipop.
06-10-2007, 08:47 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

Pantheism reduces the questions of life to naught. If all is God, all is divine, and any choice also is holy. So choose what you want, and frolick willy-nilly through the world, punching babies in the throat and stealing their lollipops.

There are several billion pantheists in the world and, as a general rule, they are better behaved than the billions of theists.

Apparently there is some problem with your logic.
06-10-2007, 08:52 PM
ennison

'as a general rule,' Now that'll be a rule of your own then. Funny things these general rules. There's always lots of them. And they are always so personal.
06-10-2007, 08:56 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ennison

'as a general rule,' Now that'll be a rule of your own then. Funny things these general rules. There's always lots of them. And they are always so personal.

Well, then, are you saying that pantheists have murdered more people, or as many people, per capita, in the history of the world than theists?

References, please.
06-10-2007, 09:08 PM
ennison

Am I? Where did I pass any comment about that. As a general rule I prefer not to make up general rules. 'As many people per capita'?? How many have I murdered and how come no one has noticed. This is a bit like saying there's a man knocked down by a car every day in Watford .... and he's getting dashed fed up of it.
Quite a lot of atheist self congratulation is based on fantasy
06-10-2007, 09:34 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ennison

Am I? Where did I pass any comment about that. As a general rule I prefer not to make up general rules. 'As many people per capita'?? How many have I murdered and how come no one has noticed. This is a bit like saying there's a man knocked down by a car every day in Watford .... and he's getting dashed fed up of it.
Quite a lot of atheist self congratulation is based on fantasy

That's a lot of words. What do they mean - if anything? What do they have to do with theists vs. pantheists and their relative merits?

Any student of history - world comparative history - would see that theists don't impress, in terms of morals and ethics, as compared to pantheists.

If you doubt this so much, then please tell us why. Put up or....be very, very quiet.
06-10-2007, 09:46 PM
Turk

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGL57

There are several billion pantheists in the world and, as a general rule, they are better behaved than the billions of theists.

And i think there's several billions people who doesn't know world population.:lol:
06-10-2007, 09:52 PM
weepingforloman

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGL57

All this christianity taken literally is just assumption founded on assumption. Why, particularly, must I share in your assumptions, when your assumptions don't fit the facts. There are far better assumptions available. You are unaware? I suggest you travel a bit, and read a few books - other than a KJV.

First of all, I read an NIV (joking... but I really do). Secondly, I have read more than you think-- for instance, most people would assume that a Christian would not read Nietzsche, but I have-- I did find it to be bilge, but still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

Fun as that sounds (maybe not the punching part), Pantheism states that God is in everything, so yes, everything is divine, but ethical codes don't enter into it. In fact, punching babies and stealing lollipops = punching God and stealing his lollipops, and I may not believe in "God" in that sene, but if I did, I sure wouldnt want to steal his lollipop.

I was joking about the baby-punching thing, but my point is that if God is in everything, well then, God is in war, cancer, famine, etc. And so God is not good, He is either balanced-morality or He is non-moral. And I cannot worship a God that is not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGL57

There are several billion pantheists in the world and, as a general rule, they are better behaved than the billions of theists.

Apparently there is some problem with your logic.

Not all who claim faith actually HAVE it. You cannot therefore prove that theists are worse behaved than pantheists.
There are not several billion pantheists, and there are not several billion theists: there are a billion plus agnostics, millions of atheists, about a billion combined believers of the three major monotheistic faiths (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), and maybe a billion followers of some sort of pantheist belief, be it the quasi-Buddhist faiths that have emerged from distortion of Siddartha Gautama's teaching or Hindus, or some of the quasi-Neo-Pagans.
06-10-2007, 10:08 PM
JGL57

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

First of all, I read an NIV (joking... but I really do). Secondly, I have read more than you think-- for instance, most people would assume that a Christian would not read Nietzsche, but I have-- I did find it to be bilge, but still. .

There are many philosophers. Have your ever read James, Heidegger, Kant, Locke, Spinoza? How about the ancient Greeks like Lucretius? Any existentialists – Sartre, de Unamuno, Kierkegaard?

Ever read any Eastern wisdom traditional sutras – the scriptures of the Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists?

I thought not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

I was joking about the baby-punching thing, but my point is that if God is in everything, well then, God is in war, cancer, famine, etc. And so God is not good, He is either balanced-morality or He is non-moral. And I cannot worship a God that is not good. .

Why are you so hung up on “worshipping a god”? What does that get you, exactly? Maybe if you cut out all the worshipping you might actually do better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weepingforloman

Not all who claim faith actually HAVE it. You cannot therefore prove that theists are worse behaved than pantheists.
There are not several billion pantheists, and there are not several billion theists: there are a billion plus agnostics, millions of atheists, about a billion combined believers of the three major monotheistic faiths (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), and maybe a billion followers of some sort of pantheist belief, be it the quasi-Buddhist faiths that have emerged from distortion of Siddartha Gautama's teaching or Hindus, or some of the quasi-Neo-Pagans .

Well, if you want to wax pedantic – I classify Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists as pantheists. Perhaps a better word for many of them would be monists, or panmonists. In any case, there a billion people there who are not monotheists.

And the last count I saw of monotheists – mainly christians and muslims – was over two billion.

As for who is sincere about being theists and who is lying – I suppose you would classify the sincere as those who do good and those who do bad things as liars. Heads god wins, tails atheism loses. Right.

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