right and wrong in the bible

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Originally Posted by billyjack

1) the definition of non-fiction:giving facts, information etc, ie not stories, novels, plays, poetry. i mistrust language, but as far as i can see this means the bible is not non-fiction.

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And what is the basis of your decision that the Bible is full of fiction? Because it presents things you think impossible? Because it's an ancient book? What's the basis for this determination?

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Originally Posted by billyjack

2) "the earth is a creation of god, (you say). but because of sin it has become ravaged and put into a state in need of overhaul"(to paraphrase). so where did sin come from. something must exist outside the creation of god? what? who?

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Answered below.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

3)this contenment argument uses an appeal to unreliable authority as its backbone, "the writer of Ecclisiastes makes it clear that there is nothing in life but god that can provide contentment." premises have to have their facts based in reality, otherwise the premise is untrue and the argument unsound. of course truth only exist in logic, and logic isnt reality, so never mind that.

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No it does not - I don't quote the Bible as proof - I quote it to show you why I hold a certain view. I contend that people who have dismissed God out of their lives will experience a restlessness and a discontent because - as C.S. Lewis wrote - God designed us to "run" on Him (like a car is designed to "run" on gasoline); trying to "run" on any other "fuel" (sex, money, fame, relationships, addictions, etc) will not only not satisfy, but will drive us deeper into despair.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

what i stuggle to understand is this. god created the world, but not sin. so who made sin--the devil? who made him? i asked it earlier in this post as well. i've more to say, but i'll wait.

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Evil is a consequence of God's desire that we be "free moral agents": in order for us to be truly free, we needed to have the viable choice to choose other than to serve God; otherwise we are autonomatons who cannot help but choose good because bad is not an option if we don't have freewill (the logic behind the placement of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden). God is love - and because love is a choice (not a feeling or a chemical reaction) there must be the choice to not love. Lucifer, the greatest of God's angels, used his freewill to place himself in opposition of God - and his rebellion against God resulted in the creation of sin in the universe. God didn't create sin/evil - but the necessary and potential consequence of making morally free creatures is that they might choose to not do the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

No it does not - I don't quote the Bible as proof - I quote it to show you why I hold a certain view. I contend that people who have dismissed God out of their lives will experience a restlessness and a discontent because - as C.S. Lewis wrote - God designed us to "run" on Him (like a car is designed to "run" on gasoline); trying to "run" on any other "fuel" (sex, money, fame, relationships, addictions, etc) will not only not satisfy, but will drive us deeper into despair.

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This is an excellent point. I've met many people who feel this way in their life and they don't know why. When I talk further with them, I discover they have no association with God. When God is not present in your life, your life simply is not what it should and could be. The result of this is the discontent many people feel. I think this also ties in very closely with Jesus telling us that the poor have a better chance of getting into heaven than the rich. The rich just want more and more, thus feeling discontent with all that they have.

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Originally Posted by Zirkle2007

This is an excellent point. I've met many people who feel this way in their life and they don't know why. When I talk further with them, I discover they have no association with God. When God is not present in your life, your life simply is not what it should and could be. The result of this is the discontent many people feel. I think this also ties in very closely with Jesus telling us that the poor have a better chance of getting into heaven than the rich. The rich just want more and more, thus feeling discontent with all that they have.

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Thank you. Contentment is very elusive - one wonders how Mother Teresa had it and Kurt Cobain didn't. When you compare the advantages/disadvantages of their lives, you have to wonder. We are easily fooled by appearances, but I guess one of the advantages of tabloid papers/TV is that we get to see that beautiful, rich, and powerful people tend to lead lives just as unhappy, addiction-ridden, and relationally challenged as our own. We have a "God-shaped" void inside our hearts; all other "fillers" won't work: they gratify, but not satisfy.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

And what is the basis of your decision that the Bible is full of fiction? Because it presents things you think impossible? Because it's an ancient book? What's the basis for this determination?


it does not - I don't quote the Bible as proof - I quote it to show you why I hold a certain view. I contend that people who have dismissed God out of their lives will experience a restlessness and a discontent because - as C.S. Lewis wrote - God designed us to "run" on Him (like a car is designed to "run" on gasoline); trying to "run" on any other "fuel" (sex, money, fame, relationships, addictions, etc) will not only not satisfy, but will drive us deeper into despair.



Evil is a consequence of God's desire that we be "free moral agents": in order for us to be truly free, we needed to have the viable choice to choose other than to serve God; otherwise we are autonomatons who cannot help but choose good because bad is not an option if we don't have freewill (the logic behind the placement of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden). God is love - and because love is a choice (not a feeling or a chemical reaction) there must be the choice to not love. Lucifer, the greatest of God's angels, used his freewill to place himself in opposition of God - and his rebellion against God resulted in the creation of sin in the universe. God didn't create sin/evil - but the necessary and potential consequence of making morally free creatures is that they might choose to not do the right thing.

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1) i'd like to argue the bible's being fiction, but then i would have to call every book, including non-fiction, fiction. although this is what i think to be actual, i'm going to spare you because i need to think about it.

2) fair eneogh!

3) that is such a complicated explanation it has to be man-made. . . also, i like occam's razor. all i need to do to know anything is open my eyes, ears and nose and look around. when i look around, i don't see all this intircate stuff you just explained. if i could get out some intricate measuring instraments to look into the stars or down at my feet, i dont think i would find what you are talking about either. so where is all this stuff you just explained coming from? its undetectable this instant for certain. i don't see things like free will when i open my eyes. i don't smell gardens of eden or sin or luciphers either. i see a computer lab with bearded man sitting next to me and a cup of mate tea to my right.


if love is a choice, then why do we fall into it? we dont choose to fall. if i choose to go off a cliff, i'd say i jumped, not fell.

so how did luciphers choice create sin in the universe? you must mean he invented sin in man. because there's no convincing non-men (animals and plants) to do anything, they just do it. so, lucipher taught men how to sin. okay. but i think you need to change your definiton of sin to "lucipher created sin in men", not "sin in the universe."

"so god didnt invent sin, but because he created creatures with free will there's a chance they might choose to do the wrong thing." (to paraphrase you) who decided what the "wrong things" were? god i am assuming, right. . .well simple logic tells us that you can't have a front without a back, light without dark. if god decided what's bad then he must have also decided what's good. and he created the good, so wouldnt that suggest he created the bad as well?

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Originally Posted by billyjack

3) that is such a complicated explanation it has to be man-made. . . also, i like occam's razor. all i need to do to know anything is open my eyes, ears and nose and look around. when i look around, i don't see all this intircate stuff you just explained. if i could get out some intricate measuring instraments to look into the stars or down at my feet, i dont think i would find what you are talking about either. so where is all this stuff you just explained coming from? its undetectable this instant for certain. i don't see things like free will when i open my eyes. i don't smell gardens of eden or sin or luciphers either. i see a computer lab with bearded man sitting next to me and a cup of mate tea to my right.

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You asked where sin came from and I explained; I'm less concerned with being simple than I am with being clear. There's plenty of things you can't "see" but acknowledge the existence of - love, hate, sorrow, jealousy, hope, joy - and the list goes on.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

if love is a choice, then why do we fall into it? we dont choose to fall. if i choose to go off a cliff, i'd say i jumped, not fell.

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"Falling in love" is one of our idioms from the feelings associated with the early stages of love - attraction, arousal, excitement, infatuation, even a bit of lust perhaps. Either way, you don't "fall" into love - it does not happen against your will. You agree to enter into an emotional relationship with someone. Eventually, the "floating on air" infatuation will die down - at that point, love becomes a choice. Choosing a partner based only upon that initial infatuation is a recipe for divorce (as our current statistics would seem to bear out).

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Originally Posted by billyjack

so how did luciphers choice create sin in the universe? you must mean he invented sin in man. because there's no convincing non-men (animals and plants) to do anything, they just do it. so, lucipher taught men how to sin. okay. but i think you need to change your definiton of sin to "lucipher created sin in men", not "sin in the universe."

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Because sin did not exist before Lucifer chose rebellion. He then went to corrupt God's creation (being too weak to rebel directly against God himself [as a created creature]). Lucifer (now Satan) tempts humanity due to God's choice to give humanity freewill, and humanity takes the bait (unfortunatley). At that point, all of creation suffered.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

"so god didnt invent sin, but because he created creatures with free will there's a chance they might choose to do the wrong thing." (to paraphrase you) who decided what the "wrong things" were? god i am assuming, right. . .well simple logic tells us that you can't have a front without a back, light without dark. if god decided what's bad then he must have also decided what's good. and he created the good, so wouldnt that suggest he created the bad as well?

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"Good" is not a function of what God likes, nor is "bad/evil" a product of what He doesn't like: they are reflections of that which is consistent with His character (good) and that which is inconsistent with His character (bad/evil). He doesn't choose what good/bad are - they just are (because God is the source of all reality in the universe).

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

You asked where sin came from and I explained; I'm less concerned with being simple than I am with being clear. There's plenty of things you can't "see" but acknowledge the existence of - love, hate, sorrow, jealousy, hope, joy - and the list goes on.





"Falling in love" is one of our idioms from the feelings associated with the early stages of love - attraction, arousal, excitement, infatuation, even a bit of lust perhaps. Either way, you don't "fall" into love - it does not happen against your will. You agree to enter into an emotional relationship with someone. Eventually, the "floating on air" infatuation will die down - at that point, love becomes a choice. Choosing a partner based only upon that initial infatuation is a recipe for divorce (as our current statistics would seem to bear out).



Because sin did not exist before Lucifer chose rebellion. He then went to corrupt God's creation (being too weak to rebel directly against God himself [as a created creature]). Lucifer (now Satan) tempts humanity due to God's choice to give humanity freewill, and humanity takes the bait (unfortunatley). At that point, all of creation suffered.



"Good" is not a function of what God likes, nor is "bad/evil" a product of what He doesn't like: they are reflections of that which is consistent with His character (good) and that which is inconsistent with His character (bad/evil). He doesn't choose what good/bad are - they just are (because God is the source of all reality in the universe).

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1)love, hate, sorrow, hope, joy--i don't need a story to tell me these things exist. i feel them. all these things that i can't see but acknowledge the existence of are experienced none the less. intricate stories of lucipher falling from heaven to explain why my wife cheated on me is not something that i experience when i get this news.

if records were destroyed and memories erased, do you think christianity or god would exist? i'm talking within the first 24 hours of erasal and destroyal.

2) i'll give ya the whole choosing love thing, but it doesnt sound romantic one bit.

3) there must have been "bad" before lucipher rebelled. the angels must have enjoyed certain things more than others. otherwise everything would just be the same even if it all was good--how boring. even oreos get gross after a while. it sounds like lucipher did everybody a favor and spiced things up a bit. all good, no bad--sorry but that sounds lame.

4) they just are?? you sound like me.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

if records were destroyed and memories erased, do you think christianity or god would exist? i'm talking within the first 24 hours of erasal and destroyal.

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Yes - because He created us in His "own image" and that means that we have a spark of the Divine in us - a spark He gave us and that convicts us in our hearts that He lives.

The Bible is fiction same as Gibbons 'Decline and Fall ... ' or any other history is fiction. What is this .... Some pointless post modernist mumbo jumbo yaketty yah yah

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Originally Posted by billyjack

3) there must have been "bad" before lucipher rebelled. the angels must have enjoyed certain things more than others. otherwise everything would just be the same even if it all was good--how boring. even oreos get gross after a while. it sounds like lucipher did everybody a favor and spiced things up a bit. all good, no bad--sorry but that sounds lame.

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C.S. Lewis discussed this attitude like this: it is like a child from the slums who would rather play in a mud puddle by his home because he cannot imagine what it is like to spend a weekend at the seashore.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

4) they just are?? you sound like me.

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The difference is that I'm talking about GOD - He who transcends all reality (because He created it); there's a bit of a difference between He and you.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

C.S. Lewis discussed this attitude like this: it is like a child from the slums who would rather play in a mud puddle by his home because he cannot imagine what it is like to spend a weekend at the seashore.



The difference is that I'm talking about GOD - He who transcends all reality (because He created it); there's a bit of a difference between He and you.

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1) there always needs to be contrast to appreciate anything--prove that statement wrong!

2) i dont buy into anything you just said in the second statement there. something beyond reality? so how do you know about him if he's beyond reality. because we can't sense anything outside of reality.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

1) there always needs to be contrast to appreciate anything--prove that statement wrong!

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Here on earth, your belief is (for the most part) true - but not forever.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

2) i dont buy into anything you just said in the second statement there. something beyond reality? so how do you know about him if he's beyond reality. because we can't sense anything outside of reality.

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OK - you're free to rejet it. God created reality - a creator by necessity must be separate from that which he creates. Your response is the equivalent of a pot that denies the existence of a potter.

I submit that the differences between a pot and the whole of reality are too large for your analogy to work.

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

I submit that the differences between a pot and the whole of reality are too large for your analogy to work.

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I am probably doomed to create false analogies. However, my analogy is pointed at billyjack's claim that he can't sense God because he is beyond reality (or, probably more accurately stated: nature). The analogy was created to creator; not created to all of reality.

I suspect that billyjack's definition of the word 'reality' would includes everything, including God if he exists. To say that God "exists outside of the universe" or that he "exists outside of those planes of reality accessible to humans" might be a more precise choice of words.

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

I suspect that billyjack's definition of the word 'reality' would includes everything, including God if he exists. To say that God "exists outside of the universe" or that he "exists outside of those planes of reality accessible to humans" might be a more precise choice of words.

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I will agree with you there.