I'm so glad to have gained your agreement.
I have been enjoying our discussion greatly.
And you're so right about interpretations.
That's why it's sometimes good to get a variety of opinions.
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Since you enjoy our discussions so much ( and so do I ), how do you think Darcy and Lizzy's marriage would turn out ? I'm dying to know your opinion. I think they're an excellent couple, very compatible, although pride and stubborness would probably get in the way.
I think that Austen presented them as the most romantic couple in the novel, with the help of references to nature whenever Darcy and Lizzy are present.
Not to mention the opening lines of Darcy's first proposal :
" You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you ! " I think this must be the most poetical line of all love literature, being romantic and tasteful at the same time ! A most aristocratic way of expressing oneself, and very befitting the very noble Darcy ! :angel:
In comparison, Jane and Bingley are a very conventional romantic couple.
Perhaps a strength of character accounts for the difference in romantic intensity and expression ?
Why, they lived happily ever after, of course!
Seriously though, firstly let me say that I want them to live happily ever after,
and nothing will dissuade me from my resolve!
I do not care to hear otherwise!
That being said, until reading your posts, I had never given a thought to how the different marriages would be afterward.
I tend to avoid jumping to conclusions without enough information.
To tell you the truth, I have felt that Austen sort of leaves me wondering what exactly it is that Darcy loves about Elizabeth.
When I read the romantic line you love so much, I found myself thinking, yes, but why?
I wish she would have spent more time developing that for us.
I have found a couple of items he loves and admires, like the fine eyes, and the love of outdoors, and I guess her care of her sister is mentioned, oh yes, and her impertinence.
And you have apparently come upon frequent references to nature which I haven't noticed.
As it is in real life: opposites attract.
His greatest weakness is perhaps her greatest strength - conversing with strangers.
His greatest strength is perhaps his sense of duty and taking responsibility (as he did with Wickham and Lydia).
Perhaps we could venture to say that maybe Elizabeth is a little too selfish in that way, since she refused to sacrifice herself for the everlasting comfort of all her family by not marrying Mr. Collins.
I wonder what Jane would have done?
(I have just read Pride and Prejudice twice in the past month.)
Truthfully, the book left me puzzled about what it was exactly that made them want each other, and asking myself whether that was really enough reason to marry somebody.
Whatever was the motivating factor, we know that Darcy was ready to sacrifice everything dear to him in order to have her: pride, opinions of others, etc.
We know they were good for each other,
and really that is what a successful marriage is all about.
If you can help each other be a better person,
if you cause the other person to be better with you,
than they would be alone,
if you believe in each other and respect each other,
if you can trust each other entirely,
to be completely honest and faithful,
these are things that make for a healthy intimate marriage.
When you know a man has your best interests at heart,
as we are sure Darcy does,
and is unselfish in his actions,
which Darcy did,
you know that man truly loves you.
And really, Darcy fulfills that ideal of "unconditional love"
since he continued to pour out selfless acts toward her no matter what the price-
including becoming Wickham's brother-in-law!
And don't we ALL want to be unconditionally loved!?
Would you happen to be a fan of Meyers-Briggs personality profiles?
I'm pretty sure Darcy is an INTJ but I don't know anyone else's type.
Why do you think that Darcy is intuitive ( "N" is for intuition, right ? ) ? I thought that he was a " Sensor " who needed all the information to understand a person ? After all, he didn't like Lizzy right away, but upon gradually getting to know her ?
Anyways, I think Darcy likes Elizabeth first for her appearance, then for her liveliness and then her mind. ( However, forgetting the sequence of events here ). I think that when he's admiring her " wild " look and healthy glow, he doesn't just think of her love of nature, but he also sees her as an energetic, lively person as evidenced by her love of brisk walking. This particular trait sets her apart from women of his circle who are raised to be formal and poised rather than lively.
As he himself tells her upon his 2nd proposal, he admired her for " the liveliness of [ her ] mind ". When at Netherfield while Jane is sick and later at the Netherfield ball, they do a lot of intellectual sparring. Since Darcy is highly intelligent himself, it's understandable that this trait in Elizabeth would appeal to him greatly. She is his intellectual equal, unlike the many " insipid " women of his circle.
Moreover, this sparring is performed with a lot spirit and aplomb on Elizabeth's part which, I imagine, also charms Darcy. He's also impressed with Elizabeth's ability to stand up for herself and to hold her own with an aristocrat like himself, even though she belongs to a lower strata of gentry and despite the fact that he looked down on her initially. I suspect he also welcomes this approach of Elizabeth's to him ( as opposed to deferrential treatment he's used to ) because, being a strong person, he feels challenged and energized by it.
All of the above traits, although attractive in themselves, raise her above the women not only of her class, but of his as well. To summarize, she impresses him as a forceful, energetic, bright, independent woman, unlike women of his rank among whom he is expected to select a mate : shallow Miss Bingley or sickly Anne de Bourgh. I think the fact that's she's so unusual and different makes her irresistible in his eyes : he is described as being " bewitched " by her.
And an unusual, gifted person like Darcy would be longing for an unusual, gifted woman like Elizabeth.
I guess I thought he was an INTJ because he’s so
difficult to please, and he is so fastidious,
but he could be an ISTJ based on his steadiness of character,
and the fact that the housekeeper said she had never had a
harsh word from him
because ISTJs are very steady and usually calm.
Thanks for explaining all that.
I just think it's weird how he didn't think she was beautiful at first.
Good point about the sickly Miss de Bourgh and the shallow Miss Bingley.
So what is "N" in the INTJ --- can you please explain ? And what is an " S " ?
I think Darcy only thought of her as " tolerable " at first because he was probably very annoyed at that assembly by the society on the whole, so he was picking on everyone. Also, I don't think that Elizabeth is considered beautiful in the book, but just lovely, certainly not exceptionally beautiful ( like Jane ), and to Darcy with his high standards that was not enough at first. I think he may have been somewhat right when he said that she wasn't anything out of the ordinary--she was just an attractive and a lovely woman.
It's her intelligence that attracts him more, and it's worth noting that he finds her face rendered pretty by her intelligent eyes : so her intelligence is her beauty.
"Occupied in observing Mr. Bingley's attentions to her sister, Elizabeth was far from suspecting that she was herself becoming an object of some interest in the eyes of his friend. Mr. Darcy had at first scarcely allowed her to be pretty; he had looked at her without admiration at the ball; and when they next met, he looked at her only to criticise. But no sooner had he made it clear to himself and his friends that she had hardly a good feature in her face, than he began to find it was rendered uncommonly intelligent by the beautiful expression of her dark eyes. To this discovery succeeded some others equally mortifying. Though he had detected with a critical eye more than one failure of perfect symmetry in her form, he was forced to acknowledge her figure to be light and pleasing; and in spite of his asserting that her manners were not those of the fashionable world, he was caught by their easy playfulness. Of this she was perfectly unaware; -- to her he was only the man who made himself agreeable no where, and who had not thought her handsome enough to dance with."
You are right:
"S" is sensing and "N" is Intuition.
They stand for the way a person takes in information,
whether in bits and pieces of fact [S],
or whether globally in one big picture [N].
We can't really isolate one dimension of the personality for our purposes here because the other dimensions interact with each other
An ISTJ is a Phlegmatic personality which is much more social by nature than an INTJ which is more Choleric by nature, and almost anti-social.
And I didn't think ISTJ were given to haughtiness, which INTJs are.
Except for those two things, Darcy seems more ISTJ.
Besides, INTJs are naturally very selfish, and I don't think Darcy is, or else his housekeeper would not have been able to say all those nice things about him.
He could be either; perhaps he is a mix.
Here are some descriptions of the types:
http://similarminds.com/software.html
Greetings, sorry to intrude in your little discussion and to come back to something previously said ;)
I'm a French student, studying Pride and Prejudice for the national exam to become an English Teacher.
I read some of your points which were very interesting, nevertheless I quite disagree with you on Charlotte and Collins' marriage.
On the one hand we have Mr Collins who is a flat character, completely predictable, while Charlotte is a complex character, with her own doubts, willings to make sacrifices to find a spouse. While Jane Austen is very ironic regarding Mr Collins, it is always some kind of dramatic irony, in order for us, the reader, to have a laugh, because that's what Mr Collins is about: with his vision of grandeur, he is just a laughable fool. Charlotte though, is the fatalistic "old" woman who knows that her best time to find a husband is long gone and has to pick one, whoever is willing to marry her.
It's not Mr Collins who chose her, she chose him, and made him think that he was choosing her actually. He probably doesn't have any real affection for her, but his vanity was flattered by her attention. She is just trying her best to please him, to get married, period. And I eman she says it herself: marriage is the only legal way for a poor woman to afford financial safety. Of course she opposes that to prostitution and of course, we cannot but think in CHarlotte's case that marriage is nothing more than legal prostitution.
It's true that Lizzy's point of view is biased, but it is really close to Jane Austen's in my opinion. When we read the letter Mr Collins sent to Mr Bennet ater Lydia's elopement, we cannot but despise such a dreadful character,a dn there are several instances where he acts, excuse my French, like a total moron.
That's why I think that Charlotte is far from happy, she just decides to close her eyes and ears to Mr Collins's silliness.
Marriage was the only real choice a woman had at that time, and sometimes they couldn't even choose. I think that's why their marriage is so important, because it's emblematic of the general view of marriage at this time: you just have to read the highly ironic first sentence of the novel to be convinced that some women are desperate to find a man, any man, just to get married.
I think Charlotte's marriage and Mr Bennet's marriage are quite similar in the end: they both end up lonely, annoyed with their spouse's silliness, but while Mr Bennet chooses sarcasm as a diversion for his failed marriage, she rather shuts herself in some kind of muteness (dunno if that word's correct, but I guess you'll understand my point ;)).
In my opinion Jane and Bingley's marriage is too much like a fairytale marriage, the characters are too shallow, too naive to experience a relationshipa s strong as Darcy and Elizabeth.
wrong button, quote instead of edit, sorry :p
I guess I reversed some points by saying that he found her face "pretty" due to the intelligent expression of her eyes, when it's the other way around. However, the meaning is still the same : it's the intelligence in her appearance that he finds arresting. And it's not her eyes themselves that are beautiful, but their expression.
Even later on, when he begins to like her, he still only acknowledges her figure to be "light" and "pleasing", not outstanding. He also seems to still think that her figure isn't perfectly proportional.
He's also attracted to her playful manners which sets her apart from the women in her circle.
All in all, although Darcy certainly finds Elizabeth attractive physically ( and she does have many attractive physical features--- I didn't mean to say in my previous post that he didn't find her attractive physically, only that he didn't think she was beautiful in the classical sense ), it's her substance ( intelligence and character ) that eventually wins him over.
What do you mean by a " phlegmatic " and " choleric " with regard to sociability ? I thought that a phlegmatic person would be too listless to be sociable, whereas the choleric, being more expressive, would be the more sociable one ?
Jane Austen did consider marriage of convenience as a form of prostitution. Even if Charlotte finds Mr. Collins only moderately annoying, she still doesn't love him, and sleeping with someone you don't love, even if you respect them is akin to prostitution. We don't get the sense that Charlotte is at least physically attracted to Collins, either.
I was taught that the Phlegmatic [SJ] temperament is first and foremostly relationship-oriented.
The Choleric [NT] temperament is more task-oriented, I believe.
Here is a good Personality Comparison Chart:
To continue my previous post: ....
Other than that, Charlotte's marriage isn't that bad. She's married to a person with a social status and subsequently acquires that status herself ( a minister's wife ), and she does have interesting duties and occupation ( such as her parish ). In other words, her marriage is satisfying externally and socially, as a form of role--playing.
Moreover, she is certainly financially secure.
However, it cannot be satisfying internally ( or personally ), for Mr. Collins can be really annoying, obsequious and even spiteful, even though she tries hard to understand and adjust to him.
All in all, she's married to a social role and a house, not the man.